2 stroke ?

[DangerNewb]

My bad. Let me rephrase... huhmm.. when all the "cool guys" decide that small boats are cool again & figure out that all the "cool engines" will sink their new cool ass small boat then maybe their collective greatness will grant the earth a lighter 2 stroke with proven performance to all of mankind. Sound better? RR

Guess so, ok.

[RiverRat71]

Guess so, ok.

LOL, I tried. RR

[JPEROG]

I still love the small boats. We ran my 20 LCB and my sons 19 STV from Deland to Green Cove Springs and back today (190 miles logged according to Garmin) No debate they are a blast & we enjoyed another great day. "A little more wind protection would be good for my hearing as my ears are still ringing full tilt".

Joe

[JPEROG]

I beg to differ. A lot of the boating public does still want 2 strokes, the majority of us are not millionaires who have the big double, triple, quad, quint monster boats who can afford to buy and float the big heavy 4 strokes. There are still a lot of us who have smaller boats that suit our purposes that don't want the extra size and weight of the 4 strokes. Just because they work for you doesn't make your opinion correct or let you dictate to people what they want. If you want a big flash pose boat for your poker runs, knock yourself out with as many 4 strokes as you want.

There are still lots of them out there but the chances of seeing a new one getting built are slim to none unless you go to Caldwell. That ship has sailed into the sunset due to lack of market demand and EPA scrutiny as Fred Kiekhaefer states in the interview. I was a die hard anti four stroke guy until the 4.6 was brought to market and now the smaller 3.4 is a game changer as well (for our type of lake/river runs).

Joe

[wettek]

There are still lots of them out there but the chances of seeing a new one getting built are slim to none unless you go to Caldwell. That ship has sailed into the sunset due to lack of market demand and EPA scrutiny as Fred Kiekhaefer states in the interview.

Joe

Yep, I fully understand that, I was merely commenting that a sweeping statement of "The public does not want them plain and simple." is not correct.
It's not that the public doesn't want them, it's that we can't get them, because they don't exist anymore, so we don't have a choice.
If someone came out with a new lightweight DFI 2 stroke, I would buy one tomorrow to replace my 420lb V6 ETec, (nothing wrong with it, but a new one would be great) and I reckon I would not be alone.

[David - WI]

Polaris and others are selling brand new "advanced" 2-strokes that make at least 3X as much hp/liter as a Mercury "R" anything, so it's not like all the two-stroke engineers have died off.

Also, there's a "new" EPA that's is rolling back regulations not dreaming up new obstacles to progress & performance.

There's definitely a way forward, and there are a lot of people left at Mercury who would love to make it happen... whether there is even an once of will left at Brunswick to ever let another two-stroke loose on the world is another matter altogether.

[Brad Zastrow]

Here is why Joe and I no longer have two strokes. Tired of eating smoke. Picture of Joe's 30 Spectre.

[Brad Zastrow]

Yep, I fully understand that, I was merely commenting that a sweeping statement of "The public does not want them plain and simple." is not correct.
It's not that the public doesn't want them, it's that we can't get them, because they don't exist anymore, so we don't have a choice.
If someone came out with a new lightweight DFI 2 stroke, I would buy one tomorrow to replace my 420lb V6 ETec, (nothing wrong with it, but a new one would be great) and I reckon I would not be alone.

This was not my opinion it is a fact. I have many friends who own boat dealerships, both high performance and consumer boats. When the four strokes came out nobody wanted the two strokes any longer. Keep sending letters to Santa for a new two stroke. Maybe it will happen.

[Greg G]

My take is a little different.....

4 stroke v 2 stroke is not the primary issue. There are tons of examples of current two strokes in other sectors that are making mad power and are compliant. Market demand? The issue is that Mercury built a great new platform but left the small boater behind. There are tons of older smaller boats that could use/would use a repower that carries warranty and burns 87 octane. Mercury's introduction of the 200R is a big bummer IMO. The 200R V6 all in weight is heavy at 514lbs. The 300R V8 tall boy's scale weight is 561lbs. You only save 47lbs, give me a break Merc. The 200R cowl alone weighs 31lbs !!. But wait, there's more. The 200R V6 is only 3" shorter overall than the 300R V8. But wait, there's still more. Why didn't Mercury build a 225R V6? It would then have been in the ball park of the Promax family 225's which made 247hp roughly on the dyno. Marketing optics and true performance would be enhanced. Last and what kills a ton of repowers is the fact that Mother Merc forces a buyer of the 200R to go DTS so you cannot do a plug and play. Not saying that DTS is not good, just saying it prevents repowers for some.

The new technology is fabulous, I looked at the V6 for one of my boats but stayed 225X SS. Merc could have done all of the above (and easily) but did not with the 200R. Regardless of what the sycophants say there is nothing that says there is no market for a proper 200/225R, Merc has everything they need and are selling plenty of 225 fish motors.

[LakeFever]

Rewatch the first two and a half minutes of Joes clip. He clearly states Dave Jones wanted to pursue direct injected two strokes and he thought it was a mistake because the epa were going to bring tighter regulations making the two stroke platform non feasible. That is directly the epa cancelling the two stroke from the horse mouth as I’ve ever heard.


As for the smokey motors? From fifty year old antique designs sure. Ever been on a modern etec two stroke sled? What smoke? I mean none, zero, can’t really tell it’s a two stroke. They use so little oil at these super high power levels per CC it’s almost unbelievable and believe me, Rotax is not done improving these things yet.

Also as stated many times I love four strokes. Great motors. I also love two strokes. I really don’t like the reasons the two stroke boat motors went by bye. That’s my gripe. This doesn’t need to be an either or situation at all there’s room for both imo. As for the market demand waning? When a company or companies marketing shifts consumer focus off two strokes along with a full frontal attack by government bureaucracies for twenty years against two strokes what do you expect? It’s not complicated it is what it is

[DangerNewb]

With 3.4 liters, the v6 could easily be 300hp. Or 275 at least. Crazy they are only offering 200hp with that much displacement. And agree 100%, why dts only?? Makes no sense to me. I had 300R's that were non dts, super smooth and easy to shift, throttle etc. The cable is only moving a little actuator, not like the old 2.5 where the cables are mechanically opening the throttle and shifting.

[wettek]

This was not my opinion it is a fact. I have many friends who own boat dealerships, both high performance and consumer boats. When the four strokes came out nobody wanted the two strokes any longer. Keep sending letters to Santa for a new two stroke. Maybe it will happen.

Well, there is still a lot out there, so obviously a lot of the public does still want them. I also have friends who own boat dealerships and they disagree with your facts as a lot of boaters come in, change to the 4 strokes, then complain about performance. The feedback from most is "it's great once it gets up and going, just takes longer to get there"
As I said, we are not given any choice anymore, so those of us with 17-21 foot boats just nurse our smaller, lighter 2-strokes along. Anyway, you are convinced of your "facts" so stick with your engines.

[wettek]

Here is why Joe and I no longer have two strokes. Tired of eating smoke. Picture of Joe's 30 Spectre.

Generalising by using a photo of a couple of smoky old engines comparing to newer DFI 2 strokes does not make "facts"

[KIRCHNER]

hey kurt, trying to keep ole smokey going. blew up at the dock, idling. new c rod,bearing. now to see if i put it together correctly. looks brand new,as to the new trickery, the geeks think of better way, put it in production, to justify its existence. sometimes counter productive.ArtK

[JPEROG]

The bottom line is this: 1. EPA put big pressure on the manufactures as Fred stated in the video. 2. boat manufactures all started building bigger boats and they are able to carry the weight along with needing the additional horsepower and torque. 3. the 2 strokes that are out there making big power have expansion chambered exhaust and are small displacement. When every you go with a big displacement two stroke, large crank case volume is needed and air management becomes a problem at some point in rpm range. We learned just how volatile jetting is when we started building 1500cc triple Arctic Cat motors with John Hooper and running 52 mm carbs. They were great when they were on but it was a moving target with temperature and humidity factors, we chased jetting & clutching non stop. The four stroke turbo sleds of today, "like the supercharged outboards", are so forgiving in every aspect when comparing the two.

Joe