2 stroke ?

[DangerNewb]

I sold a 25 Liberator with twin 300R 4 strokers and bought a 30 Cobra with trip 280. Put 100k back in my pocket. Time will tell if it was a terrible mistake. Havent run the Cobra yet. Hope to next weekend. Biggest concern is access to parts as needed. Folks complain about reliability on 280's and other older engines. I've owned several and have had zero issues. Other than needed to spread the male plug prongs on the 8 pin harness on one boat through the years.

[mercrazy]

I sold a 25 Liberator with twin 300R 4 strokers and bought a 30 Cobra with trip 280. Put 100k back in my pocket. Time will tell if it was a terrible mistake. Havent run the Cobra yet. Hope to next weekend. Biggest concern is access to parts as needed. Folks complain about reliability on 280's and other older engines. I've owned several and have had zero issues. Other than needed to spread the male plug prongs on the 8 pin harness on one boat through the years.

I almost went 4 stroke when they first came out. So glad I didn’t. I’ll keep my old 2.5 stuff til I’m done.

[Chaz]

Joe, It's funny how every time I ask you a question (why would you spend good money on inferior two strokes if they are so much worse than their four stroke counterpart) you respond with a personal attack ??? What are you afraid of, just answer the question

I'm a good 10 years older than you are. Since Ive seen you last, I've had C, 5,6, 7 fused in my neck as well as both shoulders repaired. I think they did L5 / S1 before I met you , but L4 /L5 is giving me trouble now. I went to the doc Friday.
So my desire to go wave crashing is not what it once was.

Two weeks ago, my freezer worked good, but the refrigerator was warm. My friends said you have a Home Depot card, go get a new one. They're "only" $1800.00 dollars. Others said there's a scratch and dent place on Monterey Rd. You can get a nice one for $1200.00 I got my OHM meter out, did some testing and got a defrost timer for $15.00 + $2.00 tax .. so for $17.00 I'm back in business.
It's not new and flashy. I can't show my friends and feed my EGO. But I can keep my food cold.

Same goes for boat motors, some need a little, some need a lot. But they can for the most part all be fixed. Not everybody can or will write a check for $60,000.00 to have a pair of 300r's hung on the back of their boat. Some see the value in rebuilding a pair of older 3.0L that will last the rest of their boating days, for a fraction of the cost. Again, to each their own .

[Brad Zastrow]

I am curious. Are there any performance boats being built new today that need a lightweight 2 stroke? STV, Mirage, Allison etc. If there are it is only a handful each year. Also, I wonder how many people here that are asking Mercury to build a 2 stroke would buy a new engine for $30k. My guess is next to none on both. I have bought countless new o/b's and I/O boats and honestly, I am really tired of the maintenance of the two strokes and blowing up I/O engines and drives. I run my boats really hard which might contribute to my maintenance issues. The 260's and 280's I have bought new and used are ticking time bombs waiting to explode. I lost count of how many I blew up and or needing rebuilding in 100 hours. I am so done going on a 100-mile poker runs and hoping I come back intact. I love the four strokes for fuel economy, no smoke, can shift into gear at the docks, and almost zero maintenance for 1000 hours plus. Even without the EPA regs the two stroke is done. (the EPA did not kill the 2 two stroke) Nobody would buy a new two-stroke. And the general public does not want a cheap used motor they have to maintain and feed a lot of gas and oil. I love the sound and the power of light hull with a Merc drag, just not for me anymore.

[Shaun K]

luckily the world doesn't revolve around mercury outboards. Kawasaki is ready to introduce a 2 stroke KX300-350 to race in 450 4 stroke class. Ending GP500moto was a crime by the greentards

[mercrazy]

20’ Bullet bass boats need a light engine. They squat real bad with 500lb engines.
And I’ve never blown a 2 stroke but always use premium.

[JPEROG]

I get it. I am not against two strokes in any shape or form. What I am simply stating is that I (personally) want the best performance, drivability, and reliability available. The four stroke outboards have done that and filled my desire. I jump back at Charlie because he constantly says they are junk and lack performance (he has said it since day one), and I will admit that the I6 400R never impressed me in a single motor application because my 300X would always outrun them unless they were used in multiple applications. I have some new two stroke sleds that my son wanted because they are lighter (850 etec 165 hp and 850 etec turbo 180 hp) he put more miles on a turbo 4 stroke then the other two combined and all were there for him to pick from at his sole discretion. My brother and I both let them sit as well. With mountain sleds weight is everything so they are two stroke and two stroke turbos, 300 KTM dirt bike is one of my old ones that doesn't get ridden very often and 300 Beta (ridden twice) that Kory bought, and he uses his 390 four stroke unless we are doing single track riding in upper Michigan. I still have a yamaha GP1300 PWC with triple pipes and all of the Riva stuff of the day, it sits and we use the 1800 four stroke, we still have a 701 stand up that I prefer over the 1050 super jets because the lack of torque is more forgiving to my old ass on a stand up. I hope that answers Charlie's questions as to why we have what we have.
My LCB has never run better (with any other motor bolted to it), my sons STV 200 four stroke is far superior then the one I had with a 200 2.5 back in 1989 (both pro-comps), the 24 and 28 Skaters are running 125 to 150 mph (127 was the fastest 28 in the country for 15 years with modified motors--and it took a mile or more to get there), I can give example after example. The other fact of the matter is that if there was a two stroke demand, someone would be filling the shoe and you would see them on these 100K+ bass boats, 2 to 4 Million dollar center consoles, big outboard cats that people are paying 3 to 9 hundred thousand for; they ALL want the best performance and reliability available (if the two stroke was a better mousetrap then they would have them, money is not the issue-they want the best). The only segment that I see needing two strokes are the performance boats under 18 feet, and outboard drag boats. There are simply not enough numbers in those groups to justify the production cost when a company can focus its resources on filling the big demand segment that makes them profitable.

Joe

[powerabout]

The problem with the 2 stroke argument now is we are comparing a decade old tech with current tech.

Plus Merc performance 2 strokes dont last where as stock 2 stocks do last.

Boosted 4 slugs raised the game for large hp with low octane, cant see a 2 stroke catching them.

[Chaz]

I never said they were junk .. I said time would tell "wait ten years".
I do have enough friend in the industry that have been honest with me about wty issues. Funny how none of that ever comes from you ...

Performance .. I'm sure you're not so out of touch that you realize that guys are making 750 reliable HP from NA 4 valve 4.6L engines and twice that with boost. So yea 300 and 500 is a little weak. But I understand they have to sell them to guys that can break an anvil with a rubber mallet .. so they are "porkchops for the masses" with money. Big clunky motors for big boats that will drone along all day. I get it, however, not everybody wants or can afford one of those.

Talk about small segment. Dade, Broward, Palm Beach, Martin St. Lucie, Volusia, on up .. More Suzuki and Yamaha's on family fishing boats in Florida than anything else.
Once controlled by OMC and Mercury, looks like the "general consumer" has had to look elsewhere for new affordable outboard power.

Talk to any 450 owners lately, they waited in line to pay top dollar for those (plus sign up for extended wty), only to have the mother ship launch the 500's rendering their 450's value in the dumpster ...

If I was 20 years younger, I'd do another NHRA T/D, with a Pro Charged 540 . The guys I ran with are going 6 flat at 230 MPH and not hurting parts .. just like having a couple of porkchops ... cept for 100 MPH faster and gettin there a mile sooner..

[David - WI]

A "modern" two-stroke with variable exhaust (RAVE) & variable intake tuning and direct injection would crush the current 4-strokes on power, weight, cost and probably emissions & fuel economy.

For "four-stroke money" Polaris & SkiDoo both have turbocharged two-stroke snowmobile engines... turbocharged E-TEC.

A 4L V8 turbo Etec outboard would humiliate anything Merc has to offer.

[mercrazy]

A "modern" two-stroke with variable exhaust (RAVE) & variable intake tuning and direct injection would crush the current 4-strokes on power, weight, cost and probably emissions & fuel economy.

For "four-stroke money" Polaris & SkiDoo both have turbocharged two-stroke snowmobile engines... turbocharged E-TEC.

A 4L V8 turbo Etec outboard would humiliate anything Merc has to offer.

I agree but they don’t last. The injector design doesn’t hold up. They’re asking too much of the plunger design at higher rpm. That’s what broke BRP.

[skialot2]

The "four stroke money" argument doesn't hold up. In 2018, the last year of Mecr's 2 strokes, the basic 2018 300XS listed for $24,349.(Standard mid, Torquemaster, not sporty) The 2018 300 Verado 4 stroke had a list of $25,055. And the Evinrude 300 ETec listed for $25,620. Basically no difference in price. And the ETec has the worst resale of the three.

[JPEROG]

No sense in talking about hypotheticals. Bottom line is nothing out there outperforms the new motors or they would be selling. Exhaust is the limiting factor on all outboards 2 stoke or 4 stroke. Again people want the whole package (performance, dependability, and usability). Getting ready to order 3 motors very soon--someone please let me know if there a better option then the Mercury 500 to make a 40 foot cat run 140+ mph on old marina fuel, be dependable, have a warranty, have parts available, and have service centers anywhere I go. Looking forward to what anyone can find.

Joe

[JPEROG]

I never said they were junk .. I said time would tell "wait ten years".
I do have enough friend in the industry that have been honest with me about wty issues. Funny how none of that ever comes from you ...

Performance .. I'm sure you're not so out of touch that you realize that guys are making 750 reliable HP from NA 4 valve 4.6L engines and twice that with boost. So yea 300 and 500 is a little weak. But I understand they have to sell them to guys that can break an anvil with a rubber mallet .. so they are "porkchops for the masses" with money. Big clunky motors for big boats that will drone along all day. I get it, however, not everybody wants or can afford one of those.

Talk about small segment. Dade, Broward, Palm Beach, Martin St. Lucie, Volusia, on up .. More Suzuki and Yamaha's on family fishing boats in Florida than anything else.
Once controlled by OMC and Mercury, looks like the "general consumer" has had to look elsewhere for new affordable outboard power.

Talk to any 450 owners lately, they waited in line to pay top dollar for those (plus sign up for extended wty), only to have the mother ship launch the 500's rendering their 450's value in the dumpster ...

If I was 20 years younger, I'd do another NHRA T/D, with a Pro Charged 540 . The guys I ran with are going 6 flat at 230 MPH and not hurting parts .. just like having a couple of porkchops ... cept for 100 MPH faster and gettin there a mile sooner..

Back to the drag strip for comparisons LOL....We are on a boating site. "Big clunky motors for big boats that will drone along all day" shows just how out of touch you are. 40 foot twin outboards are running 140+, 50 foot center consoles are running a 100 mph dependably and getting faster everyday (never before now). You were posting pictures of the Hindenburg exploding as soon as they were released (take a look back at your hundreds of negative comments). You have called me a Mercury cheerleader for years because I am thankful they offer us the products they do while you bitched about their inferiority, lack of this, lack of that, or price, all while your boat never moved--Yes I know you have been through hell with health and family loss, but hundreds of thousands of performance hours have been enjoyed in that same time frame by others running "big clunky motors". Its a different world of performance since the last time you had one of your performance boats on the water.


I ran 165 miles yesterday in my boat on the Harris chain, 1/4 mile passes mean nothing to boaters involved in running past the nearest sand bar and sitting for the day. The 450 warranty transfers ownership, guys only lose when they sell just like every other motor, and most of them don't care what it takes to have the best, (many are not average guys like us). The motors that sell dirt cheap are 1000+ hour salt dogs off big fishing boats and those guys feel that they have gotten their moneys worth after they sell them ($20.00 to $25.00 an hour depreciation in most cases). My neighbor just sold a pair of 450s new in the create on the used market for exactly what he paid over a year ago. The 450s are great motors and I have proven that with set up and common sense abuse levels they can run as well as a 500 in many cases. It leaves a great opportunity for others to get their hands on these motors and that is why they sell immediately. Now they are cheap so you can't bitch about the price if you can get them for "dumpster value". You could have your boat running in a day and it will be faster then ever by far. I don't' recall too many 1000+ hour 300X, 300XS, 260s, or 280s bringing 40 or 50 percent on what they sold for new. If fact I don't remember too many with those hour counts period.

My personal experience of warranty issues have been one shift actuator, a cowl latch, a wire harness repair, an alternator, and one Fuel supply module. That's out of 10 motors being used (at least one pretty much daily). I am sure your insider can look up my 450/300 history and see that or you can ask the people who have been running with us. I currently have six 450s and two 300s. I have sold two other 450s and two other 300s--I think that should qualify me enough to share real life experience "not someone told me, I heard, or I read"....anyone who know me, knows that I am an enthusiast, and run stuff hard.

Joe

[Greg G]

You are great JPEROG, just amazing.