2 stroke ?

[JPEROG]

You are great JPEROG, just amazing.

You better talk to my wife. Sick in the head might be a more accurate term, but I am driven on a mission after loosing my dad and my sister is currently predicted to have less then 6 months remaining; to enjoy as much time as possible with my son, friends, and family. Boats, motorcycles, and snowmobiles, are what we enjoy the most together so I work my butt off "while I can" to make it happen and create as many memories as possible. I am far from perfect, I am very thankful for the life God provides us, and those are my goals. I am passionate about both work, play, and making each day count as they are all a gift. I am the first to tell you that without, god, friends, and family, you have zero-those who know me will tell you that has been my thought forever. My best days are the ones with 50 people on our docks, with laughter and motors as the background noise--the smell of grilling really and some music tops it off.

Joe

[Chaz]

I said what "I would do if I was 20 years younger". But thats the difference between a racer and an enthusiast. Oh wait, you did race "with" Scott once before.

I'm an enthusiast too .. just not a 6 x $ 65,000 = 390,000.00 + 2 x $25,000 = $50,000 .... $440,000.00 just in motors.
I hope they gave you a Mercury racing decal for the back window of you truck for that kind of money ...

Thanks for sayin what has gone wrong with your porkchops, sorry I had to drag it out of you.

You act like you know my social and recreational calander, or what I even find as fun things to do with my time.
Sometimes I like to go fishing and not put any bait on the hook, cuz I don't even want the fish to bother me ..

[JPEROG]

I never paid anywhere close to your numbers and now they "per your quote" they are dumpster value. I would just like to see you having fun again-and these things are fun. I did the racing deal with drag bikes for years and gave more money to George Bryce then I care to think about but it became an addiction of sorts at the time. We also raced motocross AMA District 14 for 12 years straight in my younger days. Did the D class 44 hydros, and snowmobiles MSDRA grass and ice for many years, and offshore with Scott for two years. We have been down a few paths and don't have too many regrets. Now Kory and I are doing stuff like I said. He has been bitten by the autocross stuff and loves it.

Joe

[LakeFever]

Sorry to hear about your Dad and sister Joe that’s a hard deal. Can’t argue with most of what you’re saying but the comments about the 18’ hulls is a bit of a chicken and egg problem. Most of the water I run it’s 95% 16-21’ hulls so these higher powered lighter motors are a serious demand. I never get offshore distance or out in salt water so those big rigs are moot to me. The two stroke death has a large hand in the decline of the 18’ boat market. The problem was never the lack of 18’ hulls driving the high power two smoke outboards into oblivion it was the heavy weight higher priced two stroke opti type motors that pushed the hulls into redundancy. If the two stroke outboards were given full open market unregulated etc then by now I’m certain and I mean certain! We would have lightweight power houses that would impress everyone. Think about it, some of us like me are pining over a motor designed in the mid 70’s

Now imagine what Merc could pull off if the hate on for two strokes never existed over the past 15-20 years. How great they could be. Cheaper and faster would be my guess. Power to weight ratio it’s impossible to argue. The etec sleds continue to improve reliability and performance. While a two stroke has never yet rivaled a four stroke in terms of hours between rebuilds that doesn’t mean it’s impossible either it simply has not had that level of effort put forth to make it so. Anyways very interesting points of view gents. Keep your chins high everyone here is doing something very right. Fast boats are awesome

[JPEROG]

Sorry to hear about your Dad and sister Joe that’s a hard deal. Can’t argue with most of what you’re saying but the comments about the 18’ hulls is a bit of a chicken and egg problem. Most of the water I run it’s 95% 16-21’ hulls so these higher powered lighter motors are a serious demand. I never get offshore distance or out in salt water so those big rigs are moot to me. The two stroke death has a large hand in the decline of the 18’ boat market. The problem was never the lack of 18’ hulls driving the high power two smoke outboards into oblivion it was the heavy weight higher priced two stroke opti type motors that pushed the hulls into redundancy. If the two stroke outboards were given full open market unregulated etc then by now I’m certain and I mean certain! We would have lightweight power houses that would impress everyone. Think about it, some of us like me are pining over a motor designed in the mid 70’s

Now imagine what Merc could pull off if the hate on for two strokes never existed over the past 15-20 years. How great they could be. Cheaper and faster would be my guess. Power to weight ratio it’s impossible to argue. The etec sleds continue to improve reliability and performance. While a two stroke has never yet rivaled a four stroke in terms of hours between rebuilds that doesn’t mean it’s impossible either it simply has not had that level of effort put forth to make it so. Anyways very interesting points of view gents. Keep your chins high everyone here is doing something very right. Fast boats are awesome

I have said this repeatedly: when we lost the ability to insure small boats, we lost the opportunity to sell small boats. I financed my first 3 STVs and had a brand new rig for 300 or 400 a month. It made it easy to own a new performance boat. Now side by sides are in that game (walk into the dealer as a working kid, they call your application in to the finance company and you drive away 20 min. later). That is how stuff sells to the masses, but no insurance= no loan. That is one of the big reasons we don't see all of as many young people with new performance stuff like we did in the late 80s and early 90s. Todays kids have a tougher route to get involved for sure.

I just got off the phone with a friend who was doing his last ride this weekend on an 850. Motor locked up and put a rod thru the case, his dealer just called him with a 4800.00 estimate .

Joe

[LakeFever]

Great point insurance is another issue. Speed limits on most lakes don’t help either. There was attacks coming from multiple fronts. Very little was consumer driven

[skialot2]

2 stroke outboards were around for a long time. Mercury produced its first 300 horsepower motor in 1984. They advanced 2 strokes outboard technology for another 34 years but never exceeded that power rating. In 1994 Mercury came out with its first four strokes. A 9.9HP and a 50HP. People loved them. By 1996 Mercury had a full line of 4 strokes. In 2004 the Verado came out. A Supercharged outboard! in 2005 Merc announced the end of Carb/ standard EFI motors. They were being outsold by the Optimax and 4 stroke motors. By 2015 the 4 strokes were up to 400 Horsepower. 25% more than the most powerful 2 stroke that was still being made. And they supposedly ran for thousands of hours. Unlike the 300XS which, I keep hearing needs new rings after 80 hours. By 2018, the 4 strokes were outselling the 2 strokes multiple times over. It was no longer profitable for Mercury to continue building 2 strokes. So, they discontinued them. By 2021, Mercury was selling 600Horsepower 4 strokes. Double the power of the most powerful 2 stroke mercury ever made. Mercury is not going back to "cheap" 2 strokes. Why would they? So they can sell 1 or 2 here and there? They can't build enough to supply guys like Joe who buy 4 or 5 at a time. I have been on one of the giant quad powered boats once. A 40 something foot Midnight Express with quad 400R's. Holy crap they are impressive. Pushed that giant boat loaded with people right past 80MPH with more to go. I still love my 2 strokes. Probably all I will ever own. But I have nothing bad to say about the 4 strokes. They are impressive.

[David - WI]

A two-stoke of the same displacement would weigh less, make way more power, and be cheaper.

[LakeFever]

Chevrolet still sells traditional sbc and BBC blocks heads and crate motors etc. Why scrap a good thing? They don’t sell near the volume of new engines but they still sell. That’s how I see the 2.5 merc stuff. There is a market not huge but present and likely to last a good long time. I guess Merc doesn’t need the money. Seems silly to me to just toss em to the bin. Sell the molds to an aftermarket supplier like Dart or others. Could always make in Mexico on the cheap too. There are and were a ton of easy options for Merc to continue offering parts but for reasons I can only guess they didn’t. I don’t see how any of those reasons make any dent on four stroke sales. Until recently the political will to destroy two strokes was extreme so I think that was a major factor. Some others seem to think Merc was afraid of getting new four strokes outrun by the old two strokes. There’s lots to this it’s not so simple but imo the biggest challenge was political type pressure. I know plenty of bass fisherman who brag about getting away from two strokes in an almost virtue signalling style. It’s become so entrenched in people’s minds that two strokes are somehow bad. Denying that is denying reality

[powerabout]

insurance rules the market.
Here in asia they only like risk up to 50 mph
99% of claims are lightning and hitting rocks

[skialot2]

[QUOTE=LakeFever;3444629]Chevrolet still sells traditional sbc and BBC blocks heads and crate motors etc. Why scrap a good thing? They don’t sell near the volume of new engines but they still sell. That’s how I see the 2.5 merc stuff. There is a market not huge but present and likely to last a good long time. I guess Merc doesn’t need the money. Seems silly to me to just toss em to the bin. Sell the molds to an aftermarket supplier like Dart or others. Could always make in Mexico on the cheap too. There are and were a ton of easy options for Merc to continue offering parts but for reasons I can only guess they didn’t. I don’t see how any of those reasons make any dent on four stroke sales. Until recently the political will to destroy two strokes was extreme so I think that was a major factor. Some others seem to think Merc was afraid of getting new four strokes outrun by the old two strokes. There’s lots to this it’s not so simple but imo the biggest challenge was political type pressure. I know plenty of bass fisherman who brag about getting away from two strokes in an almost virtue signalling style. It’s become so entrenched in people’s minds that two strokes are somehow bad. Denying that is denying reality[/QUOTE

I agree. They should definitely be selling the parts. But I think the pandemic killed that. With the large increase in demand for the big motors and the shortage of raw materials they turned all production to fulfilling the big orders. Mercury is nowhere near the size of GM. Last year, 2024, Mercury Marine generated around $578 million in revenue (down 24% from 2023) of Brunswick Corps $2.6 Billion total. Mercury Marine has 9 manufacturing facilities worldwide. Compare that to GM. They generated $187 billion in revenue last year. (up 10% from 2023) They have 15 assembly plants, 24 stamping Propulsion, component and battery plants. 21 parts distribution centers among 1552 total facilities in the USA alone. Gm has more than enough foundry capacity to make all the parts. Mercury does not. They needed all they had to try and fill the pandemic orders. Remember how long the wait was to order a motor a few years ago. Now that the pandemic rush is over, and business is back to normal, hopefully Mercury will start making parts again. It would make $$ cents. (Punn intended) But I would not hold my breath for them to start making whole 2 strokes again.

[powerabout]

I have always wondered how the aftermarket can thrive when the outboard manufactuers walk away from the old market or price themselves out?

[JPEROG]

I have always wondered how the aftermarket can thrive when the outboard manufactuers walk away from the old market or price themselves our?

If you remember, we were all modifying our 240s, 260s, and 280s constantly. Jim Ruck touched every 2.5 block I ever had. Look back at the land and sea catalogue "full of add-ons and performance enhancers". Today, you buy a V8 or V10 fourstroke and your boat is faster then it ever was back then--unless you are a light weight drag racer, then the modified 2 stokes are going to have the advantage on the short course.

There was a need for aftermarket segment back then. There is a market for add-on fourstrokes as well (ECU tunes, Larger throttle bodies, head mods., cams)-just like any other hobby "performance enthusiast always want more".

Joe

[powerabout]

plus we have epa now enforcing laws on vendors selling non compliant parts.

[JPEROG]

plus we have epa now enforcing laws on vendors selling non compliant parts.

100% correct, take a look at all of the fines imposed by the epa for non compliant emissions: https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/clea...se-resolutions


Regulations for Emissions from Marine Spark-Ignition Engines _ US EPA

Joe