New Aritcle - thoughts on a Mercury Racing 3.4-liter R-series engine

[skialot2]

After reading the article, and then the comments, it seems there a lot of talk about superchargers. Apparently, not many people have checked out the R series lately. Only the 500R is still supercharged. The 450R was discontinued. The 250R, 300R and 400R are all naturally aspirated motors. The 250R and 300R are 4.6L V8's. The 400R is a V10. There would be no need to supercharge the 3.4 V6. It already puts out up to 225HP as it is. If you really had to have a supercharger you could easily pump up the 2.1L 4 cylinder 115 to 200HP and the 3.0L 4cylinder 150 to 250Hp. But superchargers are very heavy. The 400R is a naturally aspirated 5.7L V10. It is listed at 695lbs. The 500R is a supercharged 4.6L V8. it is listed at 726lbs. 31lbs. heavier than the V10. 214lbs. more than the 512lb. 300R. Which uses the same 4.6L V8 block.

[mrpenguin]

After reading the article, and then the comments, it seems there a lot of talk about superchargers. Apparently, not many people have checked out the R series lately. Only the 500R is still supercharged. The 450R was discontinued. The 250R, 300R and 400R are all naturally aspirated motors. The 250R and 300R are 4.6L V8's. The 400R is a V10. There would be no need to supercharge the 3.4 V6. It already puts out up to 225HP as it is. If you really had to have a supercharger you could easily pump up the 2.1L 4 cylinder 115 to 200HP and the 3.0L 4cylinder 150 to 250Hp. But superchargers are very heavy. The 400R is a naturally aspirated 5.7L V10. It is listed at 695lbs. The 500R is a supercharged 4.6L V8. it is listed at 726lbs. 31lbs. heavier than the V10. 214lbs. more than the 512lb. 300R. Which uses the same 4.6L V8 block.

You have to look at the 450R weigh to compare and not the 500R. The 500R uses a massive new midsection and the M drive gearcase on the 500R weighs almost 100 lbs by itself. While it looks like the 450R, the new 500R is completely different in many ways.

[river rocket]

Great thought provoking article. Thank you for putting it together.

My personal thoughts are the high performance bassboat market doesn't need the motor and that the market is too small for it. If you take bassboats out of the picture, very few small performance boats are made every year. The current motors work great for the bassboat market and the entire sport is going bigger and heavier. Most are running 3 large graphs on the front deck and 36v trollers with tons of crap bolted on to them. Most big Pro level tournaments cap at 250hp, so at a minimum most are doing that and its one of the huge reasons the 250 is popular. Most would love to see that go away, which I think would really crush the 250 sales.

The current motors push the bassboat market well and I don't see the price savings driving that decision. People are putting $20-40k in gizmos on boats, $4k in motor price isn't changing things on boats that are selling north of $100k and if you are trying to get in cheap you are going to change to options like a single axle trailer or no electronics before dropping horsepower. Horsepower is the smile maker on all these boats. If anything, a 15" model of the 250R or 300R would be nice, but no real consumer market for that either. Hell, bring the 450R back (or 500R) in a CMS mid and ditch the heavy AMS. The AMS on a lake boat is around 60-80lbs of waste. I have tried to find the weight of the supercharger on the 450R and think it is around 90-100lbs, combined both add up to the 160lbs the 450R has on the 300R CMS.

These kind of decisions are based on markets and the ability to sell units. Same decisions all businesses face. They have motors that fit the lower HP market and they have motors that hit the mainstream high HP single engine market. Light go fast boats don't seem to be a market of size anymore.

Even if they did make one, it would be $25k or more. The super charger isn't cheap, and with it I don't think it will be lighter than the 250.

Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of the supercharger. I have owned a 300R and a 450R. I love the power of the 450R. On the 450R/500R super charged motors you need at least 10psi more pressure because of the super charger. On a high performance boat that means the motor has to be run lower. Having owned both, the 300R without the supercharger is much easier to run up top. It is far less "smart" and temperamental.

[skialot2]

You have to look at the 450R weigh to compare and not the 500R. The 500R uses a massive new midsection and the M drive gearcase on the 500R weighs almost 100 lbs by itself. While it looks like the 450R, the new 500R is completely different in many ways.

OK. I looked up the 450R. it's 689lbs. 37lbs. less than the 726lb 500R. That is still 177lbs more the same block 300R for the supercharger. Plus, the naturally aspirated motors are going to be more dependable than the supercharged motors. Also, how many thousands of dollars does a supercharger add to the price?

[4Speed]

It would also be nice to have the option for solid mounts and a sporty on some of the higher HP engines that run on 89 octane. Easy access to the spark plugs would also be a design plus.

[mrpenguin]

OK. I looked up the 450R. it's 689lbs. 37lbs. less than the 726lb 500R. That is still 177lbs more the same block 300R for the supercharger. Plus, the naturally aspirated motors are going to be more dependable than the supercharged motors. Also, how many thousands of dollars does a supercharger add to the price?

I don’t disagree.

Didn’t Randy weigh a 300R proving the published weigh was a gimmick?

[skialot2]

Mercury has always published the weight of the lightest possible model available. Shortest shaft. No options at all. No fluids. No prop. Rigged weight is going to be heavier. But listed weight can still be used to compare the difference between models.

[Chaz]

Correct, there is a very limited market for a 225 R that could easily make 250-260hp with no blower. The true scale weight is what could make it appealing to the small market worldwide. 255hp on 89 octane with a Sporty and weighing 425lbs would be fantastic.

Where is Uncle Chaz when you need him .........

Honda can retool and build brand new same model / completely different bikes across their entire line-up from one year to the next ... One could only imagine that Muckery could lop off two or four cylinders off of their 300r .. But no , they only know how to add cylinders ..

The little motors that they do build, really don't get much thought put into them .. two valve head, weak center section, but a 3.0 / 3.2 lower will bolt up. (must have had a bunch of leftovers) ...

Brother G,
Now that Stuey got the axe .. maybe someone who actually likes average man type boats took his place .. and will offer a decal package .. err .. a motor for the working man again ..

Uncle Chaz = not holding his breath ..

[David]

I never understood the economics of motorcycles vs the economics of outboard motors. It often seemed to me that a motorcycle was at least as complex as an outboard motor, similar in weight, and potentially material cost, and often a lot less expensive.

It's possible that Mercury proved to themselves that there was no market for a performance 200, by offering the 200XS ROS with no warranty and a higher cost then a 300XS. In the next 5-10 years, I'd be shocked to see Mercury sell a 200 HP 4 stroke that was better then my 200XS.

[Petey]

It would also be nice to have the option for solid mounts and a sporty on some of the higher HP, none R series engines that would run on 89 octane. Easy access to the spark plugs would also be a design plus.

I'm not sure how you can add in the heavier Sporty to the equation and also lose 50 lbs off of a current V6 package..

[HydroSkreamin]

Honda can retool and build brand new same model / completely different bikes across their entire line-up from one year to the next ... One could only imagine that Muckery could lop off two or four cylinders off of their 300r .. But no , they only know how to add cylinders ..

The little motors that they do build, really don't get much thought put into them .. two valve head, weak center section, but a 3.0 / 3.2 lower will bolt up. (must have had a bunch of leftovers) ...

Brother G,
Now that Stuey got the axe .. maybe someone who actually likes average man type boats took his place .. and will offer a decal package .. err .. a motor for the working man again ..

Uncle Chaz = not holding his breath ..

Until the center console market dies, I’m afraid the small performance engines get overshadowed.

It’s pretty hard not to cater to guys that put 4, 5, or 6 engines on their boat…and then do it again 2-3 years later after they have 1000-2000 hours on them. Sure beats the business model of building a reliable 250 to sell one to a handful of go fast guys every 15 years.

I gave Joe the recipe for the V6 that’s on the back of Kory’s STV, and that’s a bolt together, stock everything, just parts the factory didn’t put together. Pretty sure that V6 will never tax the 300R gearcase. Runs and runs and runs on easily available 87.

The 150 4-cylinder 4-stroke is basically half of an LS 6.0L in bore/stroke/cylinder head with OHC instead of pushrods. There’s plenty of opportunity there, but stretching something to put out more power than it’s designed for/validated at leaves a lot of development work for the guy taking care of keeping it running. It’s possible, but reinventing the wheel takes effort and knowledge. Not many people like breaking down on the water, so you don’t see as much of it as days of old.

Just curious, if Honda can retool their bikes so easily, why don’t they retool their outboards? They haven’t changed much since 2002, other than their 765 lb, 25” shaft, 5500 RPM 350 HP V8 (they just added 2 cylinders…). Maybe there isn’t as much money to be made in outboards as everyone thinks…

Oh, and their bikes don’t hang out in saltwater all their lives, or operate at or near peak RPM for 80% of their lives either.

The phrases “if it were easy, everyone would be doing it” and “C’mon in, the water’s fine” come to mind. I’ve lived on both sides of those phrases, and I can certainly tell you which side is harder. We haven’t even talked about the elephant in the room, government regulation compliance. That’s a complicated subject for another day…

[John S]

@HydroSkreamin Enough with that rational talk. This is the Internet, only emotional rage posts allowed. If Honda and Yamaha saw value in high perf outboards, they could dominate the industry. When I go through the marina, the 3,4,5 engine "fish" boats are damned near all hanging Yamahas. The big cats are most all Mercury. Seems everyone has picked a lane.

[JBS]

Good article. Good debate.
I think mrpenguin and riverrocket nailed it

[Chaz]

Until the center console market dies, I’m afraid the small performance engines get overshadowed.

It’s pretty hard not to cater to guys that put 4, 5, or 6 engines on their boat…and then do it again 2-3 years later after they have 1000-2000 hours on them. Sure beats the business model of building a reliable 250 to sell one to a handful of go fast guys every 15 years.

I gave Joe the recipe for the V6 that’s on the back of Kory’s STV, and that’s a bolt together, stock everything, just parts the factory didn’t put together. Pretty sure that V6 will never tax the 300R gearcase. Runs and runs and runs on easily available 87.

The 150 4-cylinder 4-stroke is basically half of an LS 6.0L in bore/stroke/cylinder head with OHC instead of pushrods. There’s plenty of opportunity there, but stretching something to put out more power than it’s designed for/validated at leaves a lot of development work for the guy taking care of keeping it running. It’s possible, but reinventing the wheel takes effort and knowledge. Not many people like breaking down on the water, so you don’t see as much of it as days of old.

Just curious, if Honda can retool their bikes so easily, why don’t they retool their outboards? They haven’t changed much since 2002, other than their 765 lb, 25” shaft, 5500 RPM 350 HP V8 (they just added 2 cylinders…). Maybe there isn’t as much money to be made in outboards as everyone thinks…

Oh, and their bikes don’t hang out in saltwater all their lives, or operate at or near peak RPM for 80% of their lives either.

The phrases “if it were easy, everyone would be doing it” and “C’mon in, the water’s fine” come to mind. I’ve lived on both sides of those phrases, and I can certainly tell you which side is harder. We haven’t even talked about the elephant in the room, government regulation compliance. That’s a complicated subject for another day…

A while back .. you had said to me (the group) that you don't condone all of the business practices by the mother ship .. when I spoke about parts pricing.
For a career company man, I thought it was a bold statement usually reserved for one on one conversation with fellow lifers that exists right up until the point that another lifer is within ear shot, or joins the conversation. They remind me of fish flip-flopping on a hot deck.
Just curious, did you get called on the carpet over that one. ??? (You can PM me the answer, the group will understand)

I understand the center console market My county's trucks have a seal that say "sailfish capital of the world" on all the doors ..
I was under the impression that the mothership was a big outfit in many big buildings. saying that they put all of their eggs in the big boat market, says to me that they have a hard time walking and chewing gum at the same time. God help them if the bottom falls out of the current house of cards.
Saying that only a handful of guys would buy a small, light weight, powerful engine once every fifteen years .. is just more company kool-aid. Go to the sand bar in any town Florida on the weekend and you will see ten or more Yamaha's to every Mercury.
Same for the weekday offshore charters. You'd have to have on rose colored glasses to see anything different.
How bout your fellow 450r ginny pigs that stood in line to pay full pop for a half dozen units. Yea I know, **** the wty guys, they already have their money. .. they got new motors to build. Not to sell to loyal franchised dealers, **** them too, there's new transoms waiting. Bout the time some of them got their motors .. Suprise we replaced them with 500's ... reminds of a game when I was a kid . What was it called ... musical chairs ..
I know the market has swung to guys that want to take their family out. Can't bebothered with bending over to fill an oil bag, hear granny complain about how the smell of Klotz is making her sick .. pusswa society. But there are still hard core guys out there that aren't afraid to put in the time and effort to build what they want. Some of them like myself, you will never hear me beg Mercury or anyone else .. for anything ...... ever

The recipe .. LMAO , bolting on a lower unit from one model to another .. is about a hard a meal to make as boiling water .. and yes, a guy sent me a 150 lower unit to see if it would go on a 3.0L mid .. a good 8 months before the motor swap on Kory's boat.
The OMC guys have to convert up and down shifting to lefty-righty sporty hardware, I never hear them complain.
Begging Mercury, to do it for them is kind of beyond me. Like you said, simple bolt on stuff.
You mentioned the LS platform (as I have in the past) every single part for those is available from the aftermarket. Built to much higher standards than GM ever thought of. The new Merc 4-strokes, where are the piston kits, cam + spring kits .. ????
Nodda .. nothing from the aftermarket. People that tried selling a simple PCM flash got cease + desist letters from Merc lawyers. Hard to fight big money in court , but you mean to tell me that Mercury still owns the motor after it's sold .. let alone 25 years later .. home of the free, huh .. ???
Watch Joe Simpsons YT vid .. which ECU is best. pay close attn. when he speaks of HP Tuners ..

Honda seems to be a lot like Mercury. Lexus cars, Bikes, Keihin products, woke garbage, they seem to focus in certain areas, and build marginal crap in other's.
Maybe Merc begged Honda not to trample them when they bought so - so many parts for their outboards ... I've got no love lost for Honda, but you can put most of their **** on the pump, load it down at WOT and come back a week later and it wouldn't have skipped a beat. be grateful .. they never chose to "take the outboard market" it would have made Pearl Harbor look like a picnic ..

[PanRonnie]

At the moment i am out of money but that should change hopefully in the rest of the year
Might have finally some time to mess with land and sea dyno again

I am positive with welding in some squish and making an adjustable cam wheel an improvement can be made
If i read it correctly current spring pressure is 85 pounds ?
And doing some head porting could be the cherry on the cake
Oh and a nice aftermarket ecu to top it off