Rip , mercury killed off all 2 stroke engines 4-1-18

[powerabout]

efi cost more then carbs, I'm not sure the outboard industry would have gone that way?
Look at OMC had EFi on F1 v8 early 80's yet never put on production engine till they had to
Merc did better in that regard
Japs seem to just like making carb engines
Kawasaki have a 310hp jet ski for $15k
Merc have 400hp outboard for $50k

Once you have efi and all the sensors the manufacturer has a bit of control so I think that has allowed the warranty to get longer.
They pollute less, start and run better and get longer and longer warranty, thats the major market.
Who would bother opening the hood of your car these days? ( ok to fill the washer water)

[DoktorC]

A modern outboard is engineered around what comes out the tailpipe. That's there first and foremost objective. Functionality and all the other things you mentioned are way down the list of design objectives. And there hardly good on fuel, and certainly not long lasting. Or no longer lasting than previous generations of engines. There becoming so over complicated that no sane person would want the risk of owning one that was out of warranty.
Step back and really think how much further along engine tech would be if the EPA hadn't stifled engine development inn favor of tailpipe development.

Engine tech is pushed by challenge. Every engine has some sort of EPA restriction to meet...when we didn't have EPA restriction we had 500hp big block chevy's that got 8mpg then we get all sorts of rules and regulations and now we have 650hp small block LS motors with warranty and high 20mpg...that sure sucks.

Consumers are driving the market. Rule makers put restrictions on manufactures and they have to find a way to meet the rules AND deliver what the consumers demand....whether that's a 400hp pickup or a 400hp Verado. If people demanded 2-strokes merc would NOT have killed the opti...and it's exactly why BRP isn't a big factor in the market place today even with their amazing marketing.

[FMP]

Going to agree with you except the BRP outboard marketing. Package deals starting with entry level boat manufactures to high end big water seem to be lacking. I've seen only a couple ads showing packages over the last years. Had this conversation with Lars Strom , being an Evinrude man on another thread a while back. When they were making jet boats they could also have built with outboard power.
The switch to four stroke, not unlike the day we turned the TV on and they switched the Six Million Dollar Man for Maude, never forget that day.

[powerabout]

I dont think consumers are saying this tech or that its just how much hp in an outboard.
Is there any cutting edge tech in a yam?
I think the only area the consumers are missing out on it engines as light as they once were?
Thats being dictated with little choice

[Whaaaaat]

consumers want efficiency and reliability and low cost, both up front and to operate. The EPA has none of those three in mind when making there rules.
I just like to ponder where engine tech would be if emissions hadn't been forced.
I think we would have lighter more powerful, more efficient engines than we do now. "Clean" emissions doesn't equal efficiency. Especially when "NOX" is now a concern.
Imagine for example if all the engineering hours that went into emissions issues instead went towards a slimmer more hydrodynamic gearcase instead.
Can anyone say that there has been any major improvements or concepts in marine propulsion in the last say, 70 years?
Seems we're literally still in first gear.

[powerabout]

a twin pinion lower unit gives you the hydrodynamic but at twice the cost. (Seven Marine are twin pinion)
OMC had a full shift twin pinion in the late 60's then again on offshore f1 v8's but race only

I think the next jump in these mega dollar outboards will be shift in the mid/engine sump, that gives you some more options in the lower

[RSWORDS]

A modern outboard is engineered around what comes out the tailpipe. That's there first and foremost objective. Functionality and all the other things you mentioned are way down the list of design objectives. And there hardly good on fuel, and certainly not long lasting. Or no longer lasting than previous generations of engines. There becoming so over complicated that no sane person would want the risk of owning one that was out of warranty.
Step back and really think how much further along engine tech would be if the EPA hadn't stifled engine development inn favor of tailpipe development.

This is so far off it's crazy. Hardly good on fuel? 4 strokes have way better economy then the old 2 strokes they replace. (Excluding the DI engines, but the oil cost offsets that)

Long lasting? I have countless waterman with grounds upon thousands of hours on motors that are run hard, shifted literally hundreds of times a day, and it's rare we see an issue. But the truth is most consumer motors won't see I've 1500 hours in there lifetime. Most people don't use there boat. Most boaters are not like us on this site. We are a very small segment.

Over complicated? Most "normal" people have a easier time understanding the workings of a new 4 stroke over a old 2 stroke. Especially the ignition system. Plus 99% of the market doesn't care because they take it to a mechanic anyway.

As far as how far they have come.... of you told someone in the 90s we would have supercharged 400hp outboard with factory warranty they would have laughed you off the boat ramp.

[powerabout]

all 4 strokes have way better fuel consumption than a DFI 2 stroke??

[Whaaaaat]

This is so far off it's crazy. Hardly good on fuel? 4 strokes have way better economy then the old 2 strokes they replace. (Excluding the DI engines, but the oil cost offsets that)

Long lasting? I have countless waterman with grounds upon thousands of hours on motors that are run hard, shifted literally hundreds of times a day, and it's rare we see an issue. But the truth is most consumer motors won't see I've 1500 hours in there lifetime. Most people don't use there boat. Most boaters are not like us on this site. We are a very small segment.

Over complicated? Most "normal" people have a easier time understanding the workings of a new 4 stroke over a old 2 stroke. Especially the ignition system. Plus 99% of the market doesn't care because they take it to a mechanic anyway.

As far as how far they have come.... of you told someone in the 90s we would have supercharged 400hp outboard with factory warranty they would have laughed you off the boat ramp.

I did laugh when the first verado came in to the merc dealer I worked at back then. I thought who are we gonna sell this 250hp 800lb supercharged boat anchor to?
Power to weight ratios took a giant leap in the wrong direction when the EPA stepped in, and they are still not back to where they started.
Without the emissions that 400hp super charged engine should weigh less than 400lbs not over 700

[powerabout]

I did laugh when the first verado came in to the merc dealer I worked at back then. I thought who are we gonna sell this 250hp 800lb supercharged boat anchor to?
Power to weight ratios took a giant leap in the wrong direction when the EPA stepped in, and they are still not back to where they started.
Without the emissions that 400hp super charged engine should weigh less than 400lbs not over 700

remind me what star compliance the verados have? I think Merc will drop them as they are old dirty technology, lol
one less star than on BRP DFI 2 stroke in case you didnt know

[RSWORDS]

I did laugh when the first verado came in to the merc dealer I worked at back then. I thought who are we gonna sell this 250hp 800lb supercharged boat anchor to?
Power to weight ratios took a giant leap in the wrong direction when the EPA stepped in, and they are still not back to where they started.
Without the emissions that 400hp super charged engine should weigh less than 400lbs not over 700

What emissions stuff would you remove to loose 300lbs? 4 strokes are dropping drastucly I weight. To the point they bow weigh right around what the 3 liter optis do.

We are a VERY small part of the market. And as boats get bigger and bigger, weight isn't as big a concern.

[RSWORDS]

I also feel emissions has helped the market. One way to put out less emissions is to become more efficient. Use less fuel to do the same work, or do more work with the same fuel by burning it more efficiently. Sure the EPA has mandated some really stupid things, but it's not all bad.

[Whaaaaat]

What emissions stuff would you remove to loose 300lbs? 4 strokes are dropping drastucly I weight. To the point they bow weigh right around what the 3 liter optis do.

We are a VERY small part of the market. And as boats get bigger and bigger, weight isn't as big a concern.

I would lose the second two strokes.
Boats are getting bigger and bigger to hold the weight of the 4 stroke anchors on the back. Cause and effect boats got bigger after the engines went obese.

The purpose of the post was just to make people think.
The emissions regs produce zero net benefit toward the functionality of any engine platform. I don't think that fact can be debated. Was just wondering what other's thought might be powering our boats had that brick wall not been placed in front of engine development.
Look back to the 70s when manufacturers were experimenting with all types of engine platforms. 2 stroke, 4 stroke, turbine, rotary, diesel. I'm sure there's other obscure ones. The ingenuity and inventiveness seemed to come to a grinding halt with regulation.

[Whaaaaat]

I also feel emissions has helped the market. One way to put out less emissions is to become more efficient. Use less fuel to do the same work, or do more work with the same fuel by burning it more efficiently. Sure the EPA has mandated some really stupid things, but it's not all bad.

This is a common misconception. "Clean" emissions does not equal efficiency. More true with any engine with a cat. As raw fuel is needed in the exhaust stream to keep the cat at operating temp. Meaning wasted fuel.
Also efficiency is a direct result of compete fuel burn in the combustion chamber during the power cycle. This would raise chamber temps and pressure resulting in more NOX being produced. The EPA says that's bad. That's why gasoline engines are designed not to be more efficient, and diesel engines due to there basic design are unable to get ignition without the high chamber pressures now have convoluted expensive exhaust bandaids.
The NOX rules are some real hurdles when it comes to efficiency.

[Markus]

I did laugh when the first verado came in to the merc dealer I worked at back then. I thought who are we gonna sell this 250hp 800lb supercharged boat anchor to?

Well, you may not have noticed, but the Verado has been a huge success for Mercury.

Power to weight ratios took a giant leap in the wrong direction when the EPA stepped in, and they are still not back to where they started.
Without the emissions that 400hp super charged engine should weigh less than 400lbs not over 700

The Verado is a light weight, reliable replacement for sterndrives on big sport fishing boats.