Ron Hill Signature 400 TH Cleaver??

[fast1200gp]

How does anyone that tried the Ron Hill TH 400 Cleaver like it or compare it or opinions for single 400R outboard V hull application.
What have you run it on how did it perform, etc etc
Thanks

[Speed Jr.]

One way to find out......They are not bow lifters but if you go fast enough it may work for you.

[billy bilt]

Running them on a 300R on a 21 Cougar MTR. Over hub style with sport master runs great. also have a thru hub which does give stern lift. Actually shortened barrel to reduce stern lift . If you are buying new you will most likely need to send it to your prop shop to get worked. casting are not accurate

[jimmybrie]

Running them on a 300R on a 21 Cougar MTR. Over hub style with sport master runs great. also have a thru hub which does give stern lift. Actually shortened barrel to reduce stern lift . If you are buying new you will most likely need to send it to your prop shop to get worked. casting are not accurate

Billy what performance difference did you observed between over and thru hub same pitch? Obviously more cavitation lowspeed getting on plane with the overhub but in terms of top, handling, midrange, etc?

From what I understand you ended up running the thruhub with shortened barrel? I have the same hull, you had too much stern lift with an engine of that weight? The stern wasn't settled as you wished?

Thanks for your input

[billy bilt]

Billy what performance difference did you observed between over and thru hub same pitch? Obviously more cavitation lowspeed getting on plane with the overhub but in terms of top, handling, midrange, etc?

From what I understand you ended up running the thruhub with shortened barrel? I have the same hull, you had too much stern lift with an engine of that weight? The stern wasn't settled as you wished?

Thanks for your input

Barrel prop is a great all-around prop. Have even had to tow guys on plane at 25 mph with no problem. But the over hub gives me the speed that the barrel cannot. Currently have a 32 pitch and hitting the limiter at 6450 and 112. But put people in the boat and it doesn’t wanna get on plane easy. 30 pin pretty much does everything but only runs 107

[jimmybrie]

Barrel prop is a great all-around prop. Have even had to tow guys on plane at 25 mph with no problem. But the over hub gives me the speed that the barrel cannot. Currently have a 32 pitch and hitting the limiter at 6450 and 112. But put people in the boat and it doesn’t wanna get on plane easy. 30 pin pretty much does everything but only runs 107

That's really good ! Impressive numbers ! So you have a 30p barrel and a 32p over ? Yes the barrel prop is easier to run than the Merc humpback overhub cleaver I used to run on the 260.

I tested my new TH 400 32p yesterday and was so disapointed ... At first I really liked it because I felt the boat was running much flatter and it almost eliminated all the low speed porpoising that appeared when I switched to the heavier motor (260 to sho). Unfortunately I couldn't test as much as I would liked because to much boats, wind and waves but I still managed to get a couple passes with quite the same length and conditions that when I've established my baseline numbers with the Bravo 1 FS 32p (2 in the boat, 1/2 tank, 50-75 lbs gear). But as soon as I started opening the throttle I felt the acceleration wasn't there like the hull was dragging in the water. So I thought it might be normal because of the lack of low, mid speed bow lift compared to the Bravo and it would get more natural lift getting up to speed. It did get some more lift as I went faster but still struggled to accelerate and it was 3-4 MPH slower than the Bravo and this is giving a slight left turn input (I've always noticed that turning left relieves pressure on the left sponson and helps accelerate) which I didn't do when doing the passes with the Bravo. Going straight it just wouldn't want to go higher than 90-92 mph for the length of water I had.

I know that the SHO is probably slower than the 300R (prolly little less torque but close to the same HP) but still I'm trying to figure out whats wrong? Almost everything I read says it should be faster with a Cleaver. Guys in Ontario supposed to run 105-107 which makes sense according to your 107-112. I ran 100-102 with the Bravo so I was expecting 3-4 MPH faster not slower.

I tried trimming more, I had the jack all the way up yet to keep good wp. (which is around bullet or 0.5 - 1" over).

RPM was significantly lower (5800 instead of 6400-6500) so I thought maybe a 32 at 35 like I think I read you had. But still that engine at 200HP (before being flashed) was 3-4 MPH faster with the 32p at 5500-5600 than with a 26p at 6200. Because of the torque I suppose... So I guess it should be the same even if the pitch was too high and like I said it makes me feel the boat dragging in the water. It really makes me lean towards hull lift...

I don't know... any advice, idea would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

[billy bilt]

So for comparison purposes I am running a 1.75 sportsmaster. I put a GoPro on the transom so I could watch in real time on my phone where nosecone/prop were running. found sweet spot ...nose cone looks high enough that you wouldn't think there would be any water pressure. unless your running a 1.87 or so gear case with a sporty I don't think your going to achieve your goals with a 32P. Im hitting th limiter at 6450 to get my numbers. I was thinking of a SHO when I was in build but heard stories of valve damage above 6000 rpm. Also SPortmasters have a little extra twist on base of skeg to counter the torque generated. 5 blade cleaver tend to generate a lot of that. As far as Drive trim I would be careful with overtrimming. I f I exceed the sweet spot on my boat by 1-2 degrees it won't go any faster and would probably blow over...trust me I have experienced this a number of times and it is hairy. dive on the trim an dont let off the throttle. If you are using the same angle bracket that came originally my boat runs best at 19-20 degrees of drive trim.

Hope this helps...had 40 hours on my rig before I was finally happy with setup

[jimmybrie]

So for comparison purposes I am running a 1.75 sportsmaster. I put a GoPro on the transom so I could watch in real time on my phone where nosecone/prop were running. found sweet spot ...nose cone looks high enough that you wouldn't think there would be any water pressure. unless your running a 1.87 or so gear case with a sporty I don't think your going to achieve your goals with a 32P. Im hitting th limiter at 6450 to get my numbers. I was thinking of a SHO when I was in build but heard stories of valve damage above 6000 rpm. Also SPortmasters have a little extra twist on base of skeg to counter the torque generated. 5 blade cleaver tend to generate a lot of that. As far as Drive trim I would be careful with overtrimming. I f I exceed the sweet spot on my boat by 1-2 degrees it won't go any faster and would probably blow over...trust me I have experienced this a number of times and it is hairy. dive on the trim an dont let off the throttle. If you are using the same angle bracket that came originally my boat runs best at 19-20 degrees of drive trim.

Hope this helps...had 40 hours on my rig before I was finally happy with setup

I really thought you were running the 1.60 sporty because 32p, 6450 rpm and 112 doesn't add up but I guess it's because the real pitch of your prop is more than 32? Is that it? I read somewhere that one of those prop was measured at the lab at 35 pitch must be you? I read a lot of things trying to gather info about the props and setups so not sure. If yes did you also meseared your 30p?

As for the Sho I got it to 6600 with the Bravo 32 overtrimming a bit (as you said not faster just more slip and thrust in the wrong direction) and Nizpro says it will run 7000 all day. Valve float supposed to be at 7400 age dependent (prolly valve springs softening over time). Don't know the real deal... but my target rpm is 6400-6500. Never seen the start of a blow over even when over trimming a bit but that was mainly with the 260, sho + Bravo I was very carefull as it's new setup more stern heavy and bow lifting prop. (Been running that boat for 20 years as it belonged to my father and I kept it after he passed away).

Must be very scary yes and you ended up controlling it many times nice work. Don't lift the throttle ? Is that because the stern will settle more and increase the angle of the boat? Down trim seems obvious but throttle probably wouldn't have been my first reaction...

The info about the skeg is interesting, I'm thinking if the rotationnal torque is greater with the 5 blades and it's not cancelled directly at lower unit it can certainly apply more load on the left sponson thus creating more drag? Do you have any photo of your skeg so I could compare it to what I have?

Also what happens to your speed and accel when you put weight in the front of the boat? (let's say add one person). I know it drops performance but how drastically? Because my 260 + cleaver was way more sensitive to this than the sho + Bravo and I thought it was the motor but I'm starting to think the prop has a lot to do with it.

I know it's a lot of questions but I'm trying to figure out what's going on... Also infos about blow over with the same hull can be a life saving info so I think it's worth asking

Will probably try to test a little more before swapping to something else.

Many thanks for your time and help it's greatly appreciated.

Jimmy

[jimmybrie]

Billy, I forgot to ask, are you running the 15* rake or 18* ? I guess it only applies to the barrel prop as they don't seem to offer both in over hub...? Is both your 30 and 32 overhub + you have a barrel?

Thanks

[river rocket]

From my experience with these props you need to have them worked. The blades need to be matched. They are not from Hill. Most of the time you can flip them upside down on a table and see the blades are all different. Get it worked. I usually removed the barrel as well. This video shows the barrel, but I removed it before these runs.

https://youtu.be/wcKnb3jh9ps?si=Kd4yFoy5XO01O5P6

[jimmybrie]

From my experience with these props you need to have them worked. The blades need to be matched. They are not from Hill. Most of the time you can flip them upside down on a table and see the blades are all different. Get it worked. I usually removed the barrel as well. This video shows the barrel, but I removed it before these runs.

https://youtu.be/wcKnb3jh9ps?si=Kd4yFoy5XO01O5P6

Interesting although I think matching the blades may improve overall the prop effeciency I doubt it will change that much the bow/stern lift caracteristic.

Also you say removing the barrel so you don't cut it let's say 3/4" like many do? You cut it at the back of the blades? From what I understand shortening the barrel tends to remove stern lift, looks like these props have a lot of stern lift. And I guess sternlift can have the opposite effect and push down on the bow, does it make sense?

Nice setup and video btw what do you use to datalog?

Thanks

Jimmy

[river rocket]

“Interesting although I think matching the blades may improve overall the prop effeciency I doubt it will change that much the bow/stern lift caracteristic.”. Have a Prop Guy take a look at the blades and you may change your opinion on that.

i cut the enough to get most of the flare out. It makes them blow out more, but my last boat struggled with porpoising when the flared barrel was on. pulled the flared barrel and it was gone. I don’t get why they can’t make it in a straight barrel. I have called numerous times to ask.

[jimmybrie]

“Interesting although I think matching the blades may improve overall the prop effeciency I doubt it will change that much the bow/stern lift caracteristic.”. Have a Prop Guy take a look at the blades and you may change your opinion on that.

i cut the enough to get most of the flare out. It makes them blow out more, but my last boat struggled with porpoising when the flared barrel was on. pulled the flared barrel and it was gone. I don’t get why they can’t make it in a straight barrel. I have called numerous times to ask.

I believe you, the prop I use to run on my 260 (merc humpback 4 blades cleaver) was labbed by a shop not too far from here, but it's been many years and they don't exist anymore... I'll try to find one with a good reputation not too far and see what they can do. I haven't played that much with props so you guys surely know a lot more than me... Might try a 18 deg rake and possibly 30p before working the prop. We'll see.. Are you running a 15 deg or 18 deg rake?

Thanks for you for your input