The Big 6 -- Outboards.

[powerabout]

This example is the one I can't wrap my brain around. I love paddle boarding in the harbor to look at all the beautiful sail/powerboats. And as stated, the new cruisers are starting to show up with multiple O/B's, which completely block off the transom swim step. It just doesn't make sense to me in that application, where diesels under the floor would make more sense. I'm nowhere near that economic level to even consider the option (hence the paddleboard, lol), but if I was, I think I'd prefer the cost of operation of inboards over the convenience of OB. I wouldn't think efficiency comes into that customers mindset, but again, that's probably why they can afford a 50' cruiser and I'm on a paddleboard.

As for performance boats/ fishing boats, I completely understand it. All I see in the marinas in the CC segment is Yamahas, Suzukis, or a Verado variant. And to a man, every one I ask loves the swap they made to 4 strokes.

I am wondering what will happen to them in 10-15 yrs at repower time...scrapped due to repower is the value of the boat?

[CUDA]

I was looking at buying a small parcel of land on the Niagara River about 10 miles from the Falls, for $50,000. so I called the building department to see how small of a house I could build and If I could just put up a dock, to live on an old 40 ft Cruiser for the summer, that way I could travel the Great Lakes in the summer and avoid high property taxes, So I called around to see how much Seasonal dock space for a 40ft boat would be, Average price $3,000. from May 15 to Oct 15 with power

and winter pull-out and storage are CHEAP, Just the Property taxes would be close to seasonal rental

And the freshwater boats with such little use are a dream, So I'm looking and buying a boat from Canada, our money is worth 30%

more now in Canada, and the boats are so much nicer than anything I'm seen in sunny salt water Florida,

So my summer home will be on an aft cabin Sea Ray, with stock running gear,

But I'm going to look at a 41 Sea Ray aft cabin project boat this weekend on the East coast,

With a small home on the St Johns River just north of Palatka for my main residence I plan on doing a lot of traveling and I don't want all the complications on a 30-year-old Yacht, my goal is $100,000. total makeover, remove all factory running gear, and install extra water tanks and fuel tanks where old motors were, and a big battery bank for solar roof panels ( heat inside a boat in Florida is not COOL ) in these big boats the motors are in the center of the boat, new garage area instead of motor room, with vibrating motors and heat, not good.
Mike who is building Todd's new race boats says he has built outboard motor conversions before and would be no problem and give the boat extra folation in the rear and light weight. I want the motors six foot back to give lots of space, these boats are 14 ft wide
twin new outboards 10 feet on center = BIG swim deck , and since I hate the sun, Todd has a 10ft X 24 foot flat Vacuum table to make sheet goods, So we could make a huge Hard top, 4x4 aluminum supports, think cage because I need a small boat hanging off the rear so the 4x4 will be thick for strength, I have a Miller mig welding machine, need lots of solar don't care to use generator if not necessary.

With all new outboard running gear, it should be trouble-free when I'm far away from home.

I was also thinking of being an older boat, Pirates of the Caribbean would seek a wealthier-looking rig

[John S]

I am wondering what will happen to them in 10-15 yrs at repower time...scrapped due to repower is the value of the boat?

Recently went on a trip to Catalina on a sailboat. It was so much fun. So naturally, like anyone that has vacation syndrome, started looking at 10-15 year old cabin cruisers. The depreciation is staggering. Of course, then start adding in all the things that go along with it... The acronym BOAT is pretty accurate. I'm sure the maintenance $$ is similar, but I would assume (yeah, I know) the diesels and their drivetrains would have a much longer replacement life??? Like I said, its well out of my price range.

[Brad Zastrow]

I think our lines got crossed here, Brad. What I was talking about is specifically the ten year old supercharged 2.6 400R. The one you told us about that is powerful and durable. I want to know how many of those are still in service.

Otherwise yes, I know there’s nice brand NEW R’s. All. Over. The. Place.

-Peter

It almost as if you are picking a fight in a polite way. Go to any Poker Run or go to any area where there are high end CC's and cats and ask the owners about their 400R's. Talk to any Merc tech and they will tell you the 400R is a very reliable engine. Do your own homework. Not like you are going to buy a 4 stroke anytime soon. I will say again the new four strokes have completely changed the new boat market all the way up and down the line. 25 years ago, when I showed up at a Poker Run with 100 boats, I was the only boat with outboards. Many people laughed at my so-called eggbeaters. I had a 30' Motion cat with triple 280's. The last few years at the Poker Runs there are more 4 stroke outboard boats than I/O's. Same thing in the LOTO Shootout weekend. Very few O/B boats 15 years ago. Now I would say 30% of the boats there are O/B powered. Almost none are two-stroke.

[powerabout]

It almost as if you are picking a fight in a polite way. Go to any Poker Run or go to any area where there are high end CC's and cats and ask the owners about their 400R's. Talk to any Merc tech and they will tell you the 400R is a very reliable engine. Do your own homework. Not like you are going to buy a 4 stroke anytime soon. I will say again the new four strokes have completely changed the new boat market all the way up and down the line. 25 years ago, when I showed up at a Poker Run with 100 boats, I was the only boat with outboards. Many people laughed at my so-called eggbeaters. I had a 30' Motion cat with triple 280's. The last few years at the Poker Runs there are more 4 stroke outboard boats than I/O's. Same thing in the LOTO Shootout weekend. Very few O/B boats 15 years ago. Now I would say 30% of the boats there are O/B powered. Almost none are two-stroke.

Yes big outboards have changed the game and big hp via boost is where the 4s wins over the 2s. The weight became irrelevant as they went on larger boats.
I guess 2s still rules drag racing
For the big CC with 4-5 outboards how will the market look in 10 years when they might be looking to re-power versus depreciation and 2nd had sales?
Will the repower be the value of the boat as it was?

[Speed Jr.]

Yes big outboards have changed the game and big hp via boost is where the 4s wins over the 2s. The weight became irrelevant as they went on larger boats.
I guess 2s still rules drag racing
For the big CC with 4-5 outboards how will the market look in 10 years when they might be looking to re-power versus depreciation and 2nd had sales?
Will the repower be the value of the boat as it was?

It will be exactly the same as it is now. New boats and motors will be ordered by those with means. Those without will say old junk is better.

BZ, see you next week at LOTO.....Would love to get you out on a few factory test rides we have scheduled....Hopefully bring a big CC home.

[pcrussell50]

It almost as if you are picking a fight in a polite way. Go to any Poker Run or go to any area where there are high end CC's and cats and ask the owners about their 400R's. Talk to any Merc tech and they will tell you the 400R is a very reliable engine. Do your own homework. Not like you are going to buy a 4 stroke anytime soon. I will say again the new four strokes have completely changed the new boat market all the way up and down the line. 25 years ago, when I showed up at a Poker Run with 100 boats, I was the only boat with outboards. Many people laughed at my so-called eggbeaters. I had a 30' Motion cat with triple 280's. The last few years at the Poker Runs there are more 4 stroke outboard boats than I/O's. Same thing in the LOTO Shootout weekend. Very few O/B boats 15 years ago. Now I would say 30% of the boats there are O/B powered. Almost none are two-stroke.

Brad, Don’t fall down the hole of making assumptions about my position re four strokes. I have nothing to say about them that you and anyone else with a clear and unemotional mind doesn’t already know. You don’t want to end up where that other bloke, who only operates on emotion and assumptions generated by internet clickbait, is.


1) I have a four stroke. And I like it fine. It’s a 90 and weighs as much as two stroke carb 150. But that’s no big deal to me. It’s on a Boston Whaler that tops out mid-upper 30’s anyway. And other than the fact that I doubt it will outlast a carb two stroke (even though it’s a Yamaha, which I am a fanboy of), I have no hate for it or plans to replace it unless it goes out one me. I like it enough that I am bummed that parts are already harder to find for it than for 50 year old two strokes. The move to four strokes has created a more disposable culture, where replacement is more attractive than repair in cases where you would definitely repair, if it was a simple two stroke.


2) I did say what everyone who knows, knows. Which is that four strokes do not make the power per displacement that two strokes do. It comes from the laws of physics and 50 years of technology advancement hasn’t been able to break this law. In displacement-based competition, there is an extra displacement allowance for four strokes. This is not news though. It is an engineering given. And has been going at least since motocross came in with huge displacement advantages, 450cc for four stroke to compete against 250cc two stroke, what 30 years ago? Only Mr Assumption guy takes this fact of basic physics and conflates that to mean that people who understand and speak of it, hate four strokes. BTW: Thanks to Ski, who pointed out that Mercury is finding ways to add displacement without adding as much metal/weight. That kind of engineering isn’t cheap of course. Heavy use of expensive computational structural design and modeling methods, expensive complex casting and machining and lots of trial and error to make it strong enough when you are using less metal to save weight). Again. No surprise.


3) Of course, you can’t touch a carb two stroke for economical propulsion, for people who choose to focus their resources more on appreciating assets than depreciating assets (they no houses and kids appreciating more than cars and boats) … or for people who have no choice.

4) perfectly good middle aged hulls out there that struggle under the weight of equivalent power four strokes. Allison XB2002 and XB2003 come to mind here. There are others of course.

***
None of this is hate of four strokes. It’s just physics (and economics). Physics and economics don’t know love or hate. They don’t care about your emotions or your politics. They just are.


-Peter

[David]

I think the 20’ Allison’s can be set up to work fine with the big and heavy engines. Fine until the first bat turn, and then the weight and center of gravity increases the risk of rolling. Non ratcheting gearcases increase the chance of hooking.

The big Allison’s seem awesome with the 300R

[pcrussell50]

I think the 20’ Allison’s can be set up to work fine with the big and heavy engines. Fine until the first bat turn, and then the weight and center of gravity increases the risk of rolling. Non ratcheting gearcases increase the chance of hooking.

The big Allison’s seem awesome with the 300R

i was going by Allison (themselves) stern warning about putting something heavier than a 2.5l on the 2002/2003 siblings. They were already making bigger boats by then for bigger motors.

If you are willing to forgo insurance coverage you can always put something way bigger and heavier than the manufacturer recommends. I’ve seen a Yammie VMax on a Viper on YouTube. It was badass. But you won’t catch me doing it.

Here’s the vid (it’s one of my favourites):

it’s a little more than a minute

-Peter

[skialot2]

By the time Mercury stopped selling 2 strokes. there was no cost savings for a 2 stroke over a 4 stroke.

In 2018, the last year Mercury sold Optimax outboards, a 200XL Optimax had a list price of $17,965.00 The same 200XL 4 stroke Verado had a list price of $17,940.00! The Verado was $15.00 less than the Optimax.

As for resale, those same outboards have estimated resale values of $10,160.00 for the Optimax and $9,610.00 for the Verado. A $550.00 difference in favor of the Optimax, but essentially the same.

The 20 year old Yamaha 4 strokes were very dependable motors. They are not hard to find parts for because they all died. They are hard to fine pars for because they only sold a few hundred of them. Unlike the Mercury's that sold thousands of thousands of them.

[pcrussell50]

Sheez, ok Ski. A complex two stroke with air pump and direct injection and all the various controls and sensors to go with it? I remember how expensive the ETECs were and they didn’t even have an air pump… (not to detract in any way from their own complexity issues), but two-stroke DFI? Mate. C’mon. Definitely not a budget option. No wonder even here at S’n’F DFI two strokes are paired in the same tech forum with four strokes. Greg definitely knew what he was doing with that.

In the other countries that sold carb two strokes until 2019, they seemed to sell well. And I still see these “new” carb two strokes when I’m back visiting. It’s fascinating to see the 2019 version of what is essentially my 1986 Yamaha 40 all dressed in more curvy cowlings. In addition to four strokes. Must admit, I don’t remember looking to notice DFI two strokes. I’ll have a look around in October when I’m back there and see what I see.

-Peter

[powerabout]

The e-tec was and is the only sensible dfi.
brp just blew tbe marketing
The e-tec sled is a great performer
Saying that boosted 4s opened a path to big hp.
Weight and fuel economy seem to be forgotten issues.

[skialot2]

Sheez, ok Ski. A complex two stroke with air pump and direct injection and all the various controls and sensors to go with it? I remember how expensive the ETECs were and they didn’t even have an air pump… (not to detract in any way from their own complexity issues), but two-stroke DFI? Mate. C’mon. Definitely not a budget option. No wonder even here at S’n’F DFI two strokes are paired in the same tech forum with four strokes. Greg definitely knew what he was doing with that.

In the other countries that sold carb two strokes until 2019, they seemed to sell well. And I still see these “new” carb two strokes when I’m back visiting. It’s fascinating to see the 2019 version of what is essentially my 1986 Yamaha 40 all dressed in more curvy cowlings. In addition to four strokes. Must admit, I don’t remember looking to notice DFI two strokes. I’ll have a look around in October when I’m back there and see what I see.

-Peter

I am not saying I don't agree with you. I like carb motors. They are a lot simpler and easy to work on. It's all I use. They should be a lot cheaper. But even 20 years ago, the price difference wasn't that much. A 2004 200 Carb motor was $10,659. For around 2K more you could step up to a regular EFI for $12,672. People here were already used to easy starting smooth running EFI in their cars. So that was an easy upsell. Now for just another $1,287 you could get the hi-tech, super fuel efficient, clean running Optimax. $3300 difference from the old tech carb to the hi tech Optimax. 25% more. And with up to 8 years of warranty, what they will cost to fix is an afterthought. I don't know about where you are from, but in this country, most people want the latest and greatest tech and are willing to pay for it. Even if they really cannot afford it.

[pcrussell50]

Australia. Where maritime-related pursuits are a relatively higher percentage of the general population than in the USA. I came to San Diego in 1988 to attend university (San Diego State), and never left. Have an American wife and two little American girls.

Very similar culture to here. Settled around the same time, and by the same kinds of people frustrated by too much government in England. Australians are perhaps a little less inclined to go deep into debt over rapidly depreciating recreational items like boats. A little more pragmatic which is why they continued buying carb two strokes (for the same reasons you and I do), while they were still sold. Until the regulatory noose closed around 2020’ish. There were also modern four stroke of course, as I’m sure DFI two strokes, which for some reason I never paid attention to. :shrugs:

-Peter

[David]

I would not assume that a DFI 2 stroke costs as much to make as an equivalent 4 stroke. Price and manufacturing costs are not the same