Signs of our local bad economy getting much worse!

[powerabout]

Middle glass got some cash from the wuhan but thats gone now as the resultant inflation has eaten that away
Worldwide boat sales have tanked on the under $1.5 Million range
Boat builders of all sizes ( under $ 1.5mil) are offering cheap boats that are going down the line so clearly people have walked away.

USA got an extra problem that they have to deal with the interest on the debt bill one day soon.
I wouldnt want to be the next President

[pcrussell50]

According to the EPA environmental fact sheet in your link. The regulations the EPA issued in 1996 had no actual hard deadline. They expected the regulations would be met by 2025. It made no mention of carburetors. Just emission levels….

This is true as far as you have taken it. They didn’t specifically ban carb two strokes. What they did do was list the technologies that manufacturers were free to pursue, if they expected to meet the standards*. Carb two stroke was not on the list. Because it would not be possible to meet the standard. But catalytic converter was mentioned if that gives you any idea of the EPA’s thoughts on consumer choice.

As far as full blown carb two strokes being available without regulatory interference in the USA market through 2003, and with no mandatory market share stunts like certain states do with ZEV cars, to jack up the prices artificially in comparison to the heavier and more complex alternatives, I’ll just have to take your word for it.

Just know that it did not pan out that way in other parts of the world until regulations forced it. People bought with their wallets and their taste for long term ownership. A cheap carb two stroke that can run for 30 years with gaskets, and a little attention, is not everyone’s cup of tea (as your testimony to the market shows). Think people who buy a new car that they can’t afford, every three years or so when the warranty expires. Maybe higher tolerance for consumer debt and more reckless access to credit in the USA market compared with others, factored in as well? The market I’m talking about people’s non-mortgage debt is about a third of what the average American’s is. Though if Brad is anything to go by, and I have no reason not to believe him, Americans may finally be beginning to hit their limits for personal debt.


* Maritime related: The EPA stance on carb two strokes Reminds me of when the Russian Navy was accused of killing the Somali pirates one of their special ops teams captured trying to rob a ship in the Gulf of Aden. They did the same shuck and jive that the EPA did about carb two strokes: “We didn’t kill them. We set them free.” (350 miles from shore with no food water or navigation). I think they capsized in the ships wake anyway, so that was possibly more merciful.

-Peter

[powerabout]

How did outboards ( jetskis too) get exempted from catcons when inboards didnt?
E-tecs would have passed the catcon rule without catcons

Is it all about the environment?

[powerabout]

The question is, will there be a;
lightweight 200hp engine
or
USA will get a handle on the debt

[David - WI]

Forgetting that, legal or not, a whole bunch of guys here and on other sites waited many months to buy supposedly still available two–stroke outboards.

Consumers definitely had a choice– "You can buy one of our new four–strokes... or row!"

[powerabout]

Forgetting that, legal or not, a whole bunch of guys here and on other sites waited many months to buy supposedly still available two–stroke outboards.

Consumers definitely had a choice– "You can buy one of our new four–strokes... or row!"

carby outboards still being made for markets with no rules but not much over 50hp

[AlliStan]

Japan is still making out outboards for the rest of the world, and for the U.S. military. I guess our military is exempt from emission constraints, as they should be. Raider is importing Tohatsu outboards, and rebuilding them to meet stringent special forces standards. They will run on any fuel available and can stay underwater in the ocean for hours, surfaced, purged, and fired right up. Really cool read if you're interested.

https://www.raideroutboards.com/

https://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/b...r-the-military

[Greg G]

The question is, will there be a;
lightweight 200hp engine
or
USA will get a handle on the debt

We will never get a handle on the debt so maybe we stick with will Merc build a 225 R out of the V6 175 four stroke.

[PanRonnie]

A channel i enjoy very much
https://www.youtube.com/live/k8HRPhr...sNX0i55Ls4QUCd

[pcrussell50]

carby outboards still being made for markets with no rules but not much over 50hp

Probably true. The Panga fishermen don’t need much more than that. I’ve seen a few with 75/90/115 as well. Including carb four strokes. Those existed. I have one. And I like it. A Mercaha 90. My Mexico mechanic said the carb four strokes are popular for the longer range fishermen because they are easier on petrol. And you can still clean the carbs and make gaskets out of a cereal box.

Still there are a few higher horsepower carb two strokes being made. My car wife and daughter took a school trip down to Belize to help out in a poor village. On the last day the whole group got to take a snorkeling trip out to the reef. Their boat, a noice big center console, had three brand new Yamaha carb 200’s. It was beautiful. Made me jealous. I think I posted a pic here back when my wife sent it to me.

-Peter

[Brad Zastrow]

Maybe in Belize it is still 1975. Carbs and two-strokes are not on anybody's list for a new boat in the USA. It is not because of two-strokes or carbs that Mercury is letting some people go. It has already been explained. Mercury Racing is doing very well, which is what this website is all about.

[pcrussell50]

Maybe in Belize it is still 1975. Carbs and two-strokes are not on anybody's list for a new boat in the USA.

in struggling economies, sometimes the pragmatic choice (low cost and long durability), is the only option. Especially if you are a business, where you have to operate in the black in order to eat.

Though…

Even in more robust economies some people still make the pragmatic choice… If it is available to them. They drive used cars and boats with affordable propulsion, while putting their money instead, into appreciating assets like houses, and sending their kids to expensive private schools. Pragmatism isn’t only for the poor.

-Peter

[David]

Brunswick reported their Q2 earnings recently. No surprise, sales are down to to 'high' interest rates.

https://www.brunswick.com/investors/...ancial-results
https://d1io3yog0oux5.cloudfront.net...only+FINAL.pdf

The US outboard market, all OEMs, was down 9% in Q1 and 6% in Q2. Mercury claims 48% market share, which is not healthy for consumers.

Interest rates are lower than they have been for most of my 66 years. Boat sales are interest rate dependent. I would not expect a quick recovery for Mercury. Their market share is very high and will be hard to increase. Near zero interest rates may not be back any time soon, so the overall boat market is not going to boom.

[Greg G]

Good thing they still have the "60R"

[David]

The EPA did not of course ban two strokes or say anything about carbs or fuel injection. They set out emission standards. For whatever reasons, the rules are different for outboards and inboards

Outboard > 53 HP:

HC + NOx < 2.1 +0.09X(151+557/P^0.9) This is 16 for a 300 HP engine
CO < 300

Inboard < 650 HP (485 KW):

HC+NOx < 16
CO < 350

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-4...ction-1045.105

Why the difference? I guess the EPA expected inboards to be bigger. Mercury fooled them.