Signs of our local bad economy getting much worse!

[CUDA]

You've got the money to travel internationally. But do you? Do you pay attention to the boating scene in countries where carbureted two strokes are either not banned or were not banned until recently? I'm going to guess that you don't. Because I don't think you could make that statement with a straight face, if you do.

-Peter

Peter take those carbs and stick them where they might do some good

up you a$$

This is not a lawn mower

Funny how you think carbs are so great, I've always spent the money for precision fuel delivery, because of all the benefits

Go back, to the Outback and start your fires with Flint and get your water from the well, Suckhole.

[CUDA]

In 1989 a brand new 115 mercury was $5-6K and a 200 was $10-11K. Now a new Mercury 115 is $10-11K and a 200 Pro XS is $21-22K. So, in 35 years outboard prices have roughly doubled. Basically, everything else has tripled or quadrupled or more. In 1987 I priced a brand new 17' Checkmate. It was $6200 for just the boat, no motor. How much do you think a new 17' would be today, if they still made them. $25-30K?

Here is a new Pro XS V6 175 for less than $20K

New Models Eagle Marine Martinez, CA (925) 229-4881 (eaglemarineonline.com)

It weighs 475 lbs. All but the lightest of light boats could hold that. My 2.5 200 carb is 407 lbs. That is only 68 lbs. difference. And if your boat can hold a 505 lb. 3.0L Optimax V6. It can also hold a 511 lb. 300R V8.

Money is worth so much less today; you talk about a $6,000 motor in 1989, well $6,000 in 89 is $15,200 today,

so what's the problem

beside, wages have not kept up

[pcrussell50]

Peter take those carbs and stick them where they might do some good

up you a$$

This is not a lawn mower

Funny how you think carbs are so great, I've always spent the money for precision fuel delivery, because of all the benefits

Go back, to the Outback and start your fires with Flint and get your water from the well, Suckhole.

You got it all wrong, mate. It’s freedom that I think is great, not carbs.

My track car is EFI. I don’t own a carbureted car, (do you?) I never have and don't know if I ever will. People’s choice. Not yours or government’s.

For the record I also think behaving in a classy and decent way towards others is in public is great. But just because you don’t, I don’t hold it against you. Cheers.

-Peter

[skialot2]

You got it all wrong, mate. It’s freedom that I thinks is great, not carbs.

My track car is EFI. I don’t own a carbureted car, never have and never will. People’s choice. Not yours or government’s.

For the record I also think behaving in a classy and decent way towards others is in public is great. But just because you don’t, I don’t hold it against you. Cheers.

-Peter

Mercury made carb motors through 2007. They stopped production not because of regulation, but for lack of demand. Optimax motors outsold carb motors by a large margin. They made Optimax motors through 2018. Four stroke motors outsold Optimax motors by a large margin. Even after Mercury stopped selling 2 strokes, Evinrude not could sell enough 2 strokes for BRP to think it worthwhile and stopped building them in 2020 The boating public made their choice. They overwhelmingly chose 4 strokes.

Since Mercury stopped making 2 strokes, The available horsepower has doubled from the most powerful 2 stroke of 300HP to 600HP

[Speed Jr.]

Mercury made carb motors through 2007. They stopped production not because of regulation, but for lack of demand. Optimax motors outsold carb motors by a large margin. They made Optimax motors through 2018. Four stroke motors outsold Optimax motors by a large margin. Even after Mercury stopped selling 2 strokes, Evinrude could sell enough 2 strokes for BRP to think it worthwhile and stopped building them in 2020 The boating public made their choice. They overwhelmingly chose 4 strokes.

Since Mercury stopped making 2 strokes, The available horsepower has doubled from the most powerful 2 stroke of 300HP to 600HP

Yup. It's comical that the reasons for workforce reductions was publicly posted by Mercury, yet we still have conspiracy theorists on here arguing about ancient technology. Maybe it was the aliens.....

[NICE PAIR]

How do you know all this stuff Larry?

[CUDA]

I think it's time to drain the float bowl...

Living in very high humidity with 10% crap added has added to boaters' problems because they sit around with intermittent use

I had one performance boat, a carb 225 OMC, that I only used for saltwater. It was my only non-Merc. I never used my 2.5 race stuff in saltwater.

Well, in 2005, when Bush signed into law 10% Ethanol, the once no-problem boat became a problem,

A mechanic friend poured 12 oz of gas from one glass to another a few times, then let it settle,

Water was now on the bottom, and He said there is your problem.

We get as low as 75% and up to 90% humidity.

If you don't like sweating, stay away

[pcrussell50]

Mercury made carb motors through 2007.

I'd like to know more about those. What what carb two strokes did Mercury make available in 2007? Did they make a carb 2.5/200 back then? Because from another thread, I'm waking up to the idea that maybe I want a carb 2.5/200 to replace my otherwise perfectly good, carb 2.4/200. Wasn't 2007 well into the EFI era, ProMax and such? I have a 2000 Merc carb motor. But it's a four stroke 90. And besides being heavier than my 200, I kind of like it. It's quiet at idle, (though loud under way), and sips fuel. I also do not have high expectations for it. It's on a Whaler that goes mid-30's tops while carrying a load.

in any event, the USA EPA put regulations in place in 1996 for engines above 37KW (about 50hp), that in their own words said could not be met with carb two strokes. That had to figure into things. Don't know how it couldn't.

USA EPA pronouncing the death sentence to carb two strokes in 1996:
Manufacturers have the flexibility todevelop their own technologicalsolutions to achieve these results basedon market demand. The result will be awide range of new products that thisregulation will encourage. Likelyoptions for achieving complianceinclude converting current OB/PWC 2-stroke engine technology to 4-stroke,direct-injection 2-stroke, or possiblyequipping engines with catalyticconverters in some applications.

They stopped production not because of regulation, but for lack of demand. Optimax motors outsold carb motors by a large margin. They made Optimax motors through 2018. Four stroke motors outsold Optimax motors by a large margin. Even after Mercury stopped selling 2 strokes, Evinrude not could sell enough 2 strokes for BRP to think it worthwhile and stopped building them in 2020 The boating public made their choice. They overwhelmingly chose 4 strokes.

Yet in other developed countries this was not the case. Two strokes and four strokes sold side by side until not long ago. And as with cars, the rich bought disposable four strokes pre-rigged on brand new boats, and the ordinary people bought affordable motors they could fix themselves and keep running for a long time. No surprise. The same story is told all over the world where people are free to choose. This is how all societies with the freedom to choose, work out.

Since Mercury stopped making 2 strokes, The available horsepower has doubled from the most powerful 2 stroke of 300HP to 600HP

Meh. We don't have to get into the relative merits of 2-stroke vs. 4-stroke when it comes to power production. There is no comparison. The carb V6 150 was 2.0l. (As you perfectly well know ) The thirty five years newer four stroke 150 needs 50% more displacement AND 35 years of advances in fuel control and computer designed induction, just to break even, and it still weighs nearly 100lbs more. The AMA (motocross) had to impose a displacement penalty in racing, in order to kill two stroke. Otherwise racers silly things that we were, who wanted to win, would pick the motors for winning. And in motocross racing that wasn't four stroke... Not on their own, and not without "help".

-Peter

[Muskoka2]

In 1989 a brand new 115 mercury was $5-6K and a 200 was $10-11K. Now a new Mercury 115 is $10-11K and a 200 Pro XS is $21-22K. So, in 35 years outboard prices have roughly doubled. Basically, everything else has tripled or quadrupled or more. In 1987 I priced a brand new 17' Checkmate. It was $6200 for just the boat, no motor. How much do you think a new 17' would be today, if they still made them. $25-30K?

Here is a new Pro XS V6 175 for less than $20K

New Models Eagle Marine Martinez, CA (925) 229-4881 (eaglemarineonline.com)

It weighs 475 lbs. All but the lightest of light boats could hold that. My 2.5 200 carb is 407 lbs. That is only 68 lbs. difference. And if your boat can hold a 505 lb. 3.0L Optimax V6. It can also hold a 511 lb. 300R V8.

Randy Corson says a 300R with cowling weighs 562!

[skialot2]

According to the EPA environmental fact sheet in your link. The regulations the EPA issued in 1996 had no actual hard deadline. They expected the regulations would be met by 2025. It made no mention of carburetors. Just emission levels. It provided manufacturers the leeway to develop tech the market would accept. Mercury was already selling 2 fourstroke outboards in 1995. A 9.9 and a 50HP. They proved to be popular for the small engines. In 1998 the Optimax series was introduced for the bigger motors. 135-225HP. The fourstrokes increased in power and popularity quickly. By 2003 Fourstrokes were available up to 225 HP. You now had 3 choices. The smooth running, fuel efficient fourstroke. The clean and efficient Optimax. Or the conventional fuel thirsty, smokey 2 strokes. It's pretty clear what the consumer chose. In 2003 Mercury still made 21 different conventional 2 stroke power levels ranging from 2.5 to 250HP. Including a carb 200 and EFI 200 225, 250. By 2005 that was down to 13 different power levels from 2.5 to 200HP. The 200 carb and 225 and 250 EFI were gone. 2006 3 power levels left. 50 carb, 90 carb and 150EFI. You could get those three until 2010. So, I guess I was wrong. You could get a carb motor until 2010. Thats basically full compliance with the EPA 20 years before they were hoping. Nobody forced Mercury to stop making conventional 2 strokes. Except their own bean counters.

Optimax motors met all the emission requirements from the EPA. They continued to expand to range from 75 to 300HP. But with fourstrokes hitting 300HP in 2008. Then with power levels shooting past any Optimax. The consumer made the choice to buy the fourstroke over the Optimax. Nobody forced Mercury to stop making Optimax 2 strokes. Except their own bean counters.





This only applies to consumer outboards. Does not apply to race outboards.

[skialot2]

Randy Corson says a 300R with cowling weighs 562!

It's the dry listed weight vs dry listed weight.

[Greg G]

Mercury has been making up weights for decades on all the models. A digital scale does not make up weight. A 300R is 562 with a higher CoG. Good for many but not for all.

[PanRonnie]

My first engine on a phantom21 was a evinrude 225 XL 25 inch with power steering i could keep up with the mercury guys if the water was relativly smooth but in the rough stuff i was always pointing skywards
A promax 225 20 inch was a major improvement


Think mercury could put together a somewhat light weight fourstroke easily with decent power but yeh management decissions
They know all about it at Boeing and Disney

[Brad Zastrow]

How do you know all this stuff Larry?

Larry is friends with people at Mercury. The Fondulac WI plant is only 2 hours away. I was just at the Oshkosh Poker Run a few weeks ago that was sponsored by Mercury. There were a bunch of Mercury and Mercury Racing people there and they told me the exact same thing Larry posted.

[NICE PAIR]

Larry is friends with people at Mercury. The Fondulac WI plant is only 2 hours away. I was just at the Oshkosh Poker Run a few weeks ago that was sponsored by Mercury. There were a bunch of Mercury and Mercury Racing people there and they told me the exact same thing Larry posted.

Thanks Brad, Larry And I know each other casually on S&F. I was just rattling his chain, kinda expected some growling.