Lithium starting batteries, anyone running one? Questions?

[rgsauger]

Just…damn. My old nicad’s don’t seem so bad about right now…

maybe the airlines are not full of chit when they ask if you have any lithium batteries in your carry-on…

[Capt j]

Google :

Golf cart fires.

Race car electrical fires.

Race car trailer fires.

Tesla battery fires.

Work tool battery fires.

E-bike battery fires.

E-bike factory recall.

Just to name a few, WTF .. will become crystal clear ..

And look up the amount of gasoline fires in vehicles and so forth, you'll have enough links to fill up a library.

[KIRCHNER]

No boats on that list, hee hee

[pcrussell50]

Just…damn. My old nicad’s don’t seem so bad about right now…

maybe the airlines are not full of chit when they ask if you have any lithium batteries in your carry-on…

My airline uses nicads for starting batteries*. LiFePO4 is allowed, with a special application to the FAA to do so, but at great expense in the way of complex added safety systems, and testing and maintenance of those systems. Most airlines that operate in the USA with our high tolerance for frivolous lawsuits choose not to use LiFePO4 because there have already been fires from it, and if there is loss of life, the USA-based lawsuits will be off the rails expensive. True Lithium Ion like Tesla and Rivian use, is not allowed. There are no safety systems adequate for that in commercial aviation. Also you are not allowed to carry true lithium ion or lithium polymer cells in checked baggage where they might catch fire and you can’t fight the fire.

Furthermore, lithium fires, unlike petro fires, do not need oxygen to burn, so suffocant retardants don’t work on them. And they burn nearly twice as hot as petro fires, so materials that can’t ignite at petro fire temperatures, can still ignite at lithium fire temperatures.

So on airplanes, you can only carry lithium batteries in the cabin, (phones tablets laptops etc). In the cabin our flight attendants have “burn bags” made of materials that can withstand a lithium fire for a short time, without igniting. They are there to stuff in a burning laptop or cell phone into so hopefully the lithium can burn without catching the rest of the plane on fire. In general, lithium batteries that can be stuffed in a burn bag are legal on the plane, but cabin-only where they can be reached to be put into the burn bag.

*By the way in case anyone is curious, you can’t start a large jet engine with a battery. It uses compressed air to spin it like a pinwheel and get air flowing through it before you put fuel to it for light off. There is a "tick tick tick" ignitor like on your gas stove. So what the battery does is to starts a small jet engine generator Auxiliary Power Unit (APU), that then powers up the electrical system, and the compressed air from it’s compressor section provides the air to start the main engines.

-Peter

[Chaz]

And look up the amount of gasoline fires in vehicles and so forth, you'll have enough links to fill up a library.

Gas has been in use since 1890 or so. Get into a severe accident and chances are good that you might have a gas fire. but at that point, I'd think you'd have bigger issues to deal with ..

Battery fires on the other hand seem to start, while at rest, while they are being charged, while they are being used and of course big impacts. Maybe that's why the lefty's like them so much .. equal opportunity. They will burn anywhere, anytime .. lets go 100 years and check the overall score again ..

New Dewalt lawn mower at the expo. Electric is the future, and look at the lack of emissions spewing out of it ... pure stupidity

[pcrussell50]

I have a 20' Lake + Bay Flats boat 300R. I switched out my 2 group 34 Optima's 84lbs for 2 group 24 Dakota Lifepo 32 lbs. I lost 1/2" of draft and picked up 2 mph everywhere. Plan on putting a Relion starting battery. The lithiums easily last twice as long between charges for the trolling motor and have a 5 year free replacement/11 year pro-rated warranty. AGM's will never go more than 3 years in my situation. So the higher cost is worth it. I'm hoping to pick up another mph or 2 with the lithium starting battery instead of the AGM. Draft is a big deal in my situation as I'm fishing and running 50 mph in water that's knee deep or less. While I think Lifepo is less safe than AGM/lead acid as far as fires go, they're pretty safe overall.

That's a good review and would certainly make an interesting consideration for a trolling setup.

BUT... Getting back on topic...The OP was talking about a starting battery.

Our use-case is starting only, no trolling. We require no-compromise reliability because we do almost all of our boating, a long way from nowhere in a giant national park lake in the Mojave desert on 100+ degF days. There are no services, no food, no water, nobody has homes on the shore where you can have them call for help. We do not want to take chances with BMS's that might fail and light weight racing batteries. Not worth it. Lead acid is extremely durable and fails slowly and predictably. It can be failing for a long time and still start your motor so you are not stranded. All our motors are carbureted and even though they are well tuned and maintained, every so often I'll have to run out a flood or the like, so I buy a little extra storage capacity even though I rarely use it. Just for peace of mind.

If we were shallow water trollers like Capt j, we might consider the benefits of something lighter like LiFePO4 like he is using. I would never dream of using pure lithium ion, no way no how. I use pure lithium ion on foil board and skateboard (and rc models) only: things that are easy to escape from.

-Peter

[Capt j]

That's a good review and would certainly make an interesting consideration for a trolling setup.

BUT... Getting back on topic...The OP was talking about a starting battery.

Our use-case is starting only, no trolling. We require no-compromise reliability because we do almost all of our boating, a long way from nowhere in a giant national park lake in the Mojave desert on 100+ degF days. There are no services, no food no water nobody's home's to call for help, anywhere except at the one launch ramp. We do not want to take chances with BMS's that might fail and light weight racing batteries. Not worth it. Lead acid is extremely durable and fails slowly and predictably. It can be failing for a long time and still start your motor so you are not stranded. I use the same battery in all our boats (literally the same, I swap it around into whichever boat I'll be using that day). All our motors are carbureted and even though they are well tuned and maintained, every so often I'll have to run out a flood or the like, so I buy a little extra storage capacity even though I rarely use it. Just for peace of mind.

If we were shallow water trollers like Capt j, we might consider the benefits of something lighter like LiFePO4 like he is using. I would never dream of using pure lithium ion, no way no how. I use pure lithium ion on foil board and skateboard (and rc models) only: things that are easy to escape from.

-Peter

I am the OP and my boating is much in the same way, in the 10,000 islands in Everglades National Park. When I put lithium in the title I was referring to Lifepo batteries such as Dakota, Relion, Ionic etc. etc., My 2 trolling motor batteries are dual purpose and I have one wired to my battery switch to use as a backup starting battery just in case.

[pcrussell50]

I am the OP and my boating is much in the same way, in the 10,000 islands in Everglades National Park. When I put lithium in the title I was referring to Lifepo batteries such as Dakota, Relion, Ionic etc. etc., My 2 trolling motor batteries are dual purpose and I have one wired to my battery switch to use as a backup starting battery just in case.

In that case, if each of your batteries has a BMS, it’s pretty unlikely that you would suffer TWO BMS failures at the same time, (unless they are connected in such a way that when one goes, it takes out the other), you should be good to go. Get a LiFePO4 starting battery, (with BMS), knowing you can use your troller just in case the starting battery goes on you. It’s probably what I’d look to doing if I was a troller.

-Peter

[rgsauger]

New Dewalt lawn mower at the expo. Electric is the future, and look at the lack of emissions spewing out of it ... pure stupidity

Holy chit!!! I was in the first group of sales guys when B&D launched Dewalt back in 1992. Damn...never saw anything like this before! Good grief!