Remeber back when the two strokes were the fast guys...

**JPEROG** · 10-24-2022, 10:34 AM

We had friends over this weekend and were talking about getting ready for snowmobile season. Its crazy all of the money and time we spent Vs. the results of today's technology. 150 mph in 500' feet is pretty amazing compared to what things were in the past and the days of ear piercing open stingers are gone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I21b6aAG5ps

Joe

**kct11** · 10-24-2022, 10:52 AM

No replacement for displacment and boost.

**kct11** · 10-24-2022, 11:01 AM

2023 ktm 250sx 2 stroke 53hp. 2023 ktm 250sxf (f is for 4 stroke) 47hp. Where did 2t go wrong in this ci to ci comparison?

**moatorbotin** · 10-24-2022, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by kct11

2023 ktm 250sx 2 stroke 53hp. 2023 ktm 250sxf (f is for 4 stroke) 47hp. Where did 2t go wrong in this ci to ci comparison?

*edit* my numbers were off.

in 2009 my 450XCF had something like 52 hp if I recall correctly. I think my sons 2019 125sx is rated at close to 38. And its almost 30 lbs lighter than my 450 was.

Seems the little 2 strokes can still hold their own with 80-90% of the power, less weight, less cost, and way less displacement......

We won't even get into the better rideability of the lighter bike.

**Tom Foley** · 10-24-2022, 12:09 PM

Bring back open stingers !!

**Muskoka2** · 10-24-2022, 02:08 PM

Fellow up here in the Great White North did 203m.p.h. in 1/4 mi. a few years ago on a turboed Yammie [on ice]!

**engineermike** · 10-24-2022, 03:08 PM

The current crop of 250 4-stroke mx bikes make 40-45 rwhp, or about the same as the 2-stroke 250’s. The current 450 4-strokes are making more hp at the wheel than the 500 2-strokes did.

**Forkin' Crazy** · 10-24-2022, 03:40 PM

Look at what they are doing with an ebay turbo on the 5.3LS motors. Out of a junk yard, re-ringed and clearanced right. Deep in the 10s in a Camaro.

**Chaz** · 10-24-2022, 04:42 PM

I remember back in the 1970's when they started moving away from 2 stroke technology in favor of more poindexter friendly 4 strokes. Imagine if they were free to continuing development on 2 strokes without a yoke around their necks ..

As good as the 1000 cc Ducati's and Japanese superbikes are .. they still can't touch laps times of Roberts, Lawson and Spencer .... on 500's

So far, the 4.6L ACME dud .. is no match for a 2.5L in F-1 H2O. When boats have entire country's backing them .. I would think money is no object. And god forbid, they had to come to the line with equal displacement ...

I only seen snow once .. @ the PRI show in Indy. So I can't say much about snow-mo-bubbles. Most are around 800 cc from what I gather. 50 year old designs .. seem to go 4.90 to 5.50's @ 120 to 140 mph.
I can't relate to oddball track lengths either. I've personally been 4.17 / 178 in the 1/8 th mile on a pretty soft bracket tune-up. The sled that went 160 something is making good power to weight .. no argument there. I know what HP/LB it takes to get there ..

The stock 1000 cc Yamaha turbo makes close to 200 HP (from what I just read).
That would mean the mighty porkchop 450r would produce 900 HP if it were judged by HP / Litre .. Thanks for the video .. it proves my point ..

Moto-cross bikes .. the one area that 2 strokes have made a come back. 250 4 strokes race in the 125 class. And the 500 cc two strokes are not allowed to race in the "open" class .. that's more than embarrassing ..

Closest thing is the Gas/Gas (KTM) 300cc bikes. They make 500cc kits for those .. maybe they need to produce a 450 ... ehh

So as a rule of thumb, the 4 stroke needs at least twice as big in engine displacement and manifold pressure .. or it doesn't stand a chance .. LMAO .. Not much to be proud of is it ... ???

I know .. runs on pizz water gas, quiet, doesn't smoke so yur wife won't yell at ya for getting Klotz up her nose ... all the things a progressive metrosexual male could ask for ..

Pouting in 3, ... 2, ... 1, --->

**JPEROG** · 10-24-2022, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by moatorbotin

*edit* my numbers were off.

in 2009 my 450XCF had something like 52 hp if I recall correctly. I think my sons 2019 125sx is rated at close to 38. And its almost 30 lbs lighter than my 450 was.

Seems the little 2 strokes can still hold their own with 80-90% of the power, less weight, less cost, and way less displacement......

We won't even get into the better rideability of the lighter bike.

One thing I did for my self every year in my younger days was bought a new CR 500. Had a used 85 then bought a new one from 87' thru 01' and new 450 every year until a few years ago and then went to KTM. I would never ever consider going back. Electric start, tractability, 220 lbs.-they are great for the riding we do in Northern Michigan (I am over my track days). Outboards-same thing, no looking back (I have put 7,000 miles on three boats this year)-all Four strokes. Sleds-same thing, not only faster and torque monsters on the trail but smooth and dependable.

Still have a banshee with a Cheetah super cub Kit, a few two stroke vintage road bikes, and bunch of vintage sleds but definitely not everyday riders anymore.

Joe

**LakeFever** · 10-24-2022, 05:13 PM

I agree with the competitive levels of development being the main reason two strokes are going away. Considering how unbelievably clean the etec’s run and still make respectable power? Look back further Jag and also the desmo camless four stroke turds. Look what Koenegsigg has been able to do with their free valve which is basically the same tech.

it all boils down to money and time. The two stroke was killed by the same jug head morons who killed OMC for the same reasons. The same bunch of dough heads that said Florida would be under water by now

**David - WI** · 10-24-2022, 05:29 PM

For the flatlands or the mountains, Polaris is making a major power play with its snowmobile lineup for 2023 with new and exciting engine packages.

For trail and crossover riders, Polaris is spreading the use of its Patriot Boost engine introduced last year exclusively in RMK mountain models. It allows buyers of Indy VR1 and Switchback Assault machines to feel 180ish hypersled-like horsepower in a two-stroke snowmobile that will be about 80 to 100 pounds lighter than the four-stroke musclesleds offered by its competition.

https://snowgoer.com/news/2023-polar...e-trail/30475/

**JPEROG** · 10-24-2022, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by David - WI

For the flatlands or the mountains, Polaris is making a major power play with its snowmobile lineup for 2023 with new and exciting engine packages.

For trail and crossover riders, Polaris is spreading the use of its Patriot Boost engine introduced last year exclusively in RMK mountain models. It allows buyers of Indy VR1 and Switchback Assault machines to feel 180ish hypersled-like horsepower in a two-stroke snowmobile that will be about 80 to 100 pounds lighter than the four-stroke musclesleds offered by its competition.

https://snowgoer.com/news/2023-polar...e-trail/30475/

We have friends who swear by the E-Tec 850 Turbo as well. My son is riding a standard 137' 850 and loves it. Again, for our main riding which is the Western U.P., its tough to beat the new 998 triple and 900 Ace R sleds in my opinion. I love the engine braking and continuous pull Vs. the shorter burst that the 850 offers--I was always a fan of the 1050 and 1108 Hooper for same reason (gave a long pull but was much less refined then today's stuff) and coming into town at night with triple Jaws pipes was borderline obnoxious.

Joe

**JPEROG** · 10-24-2022, 06:03 PM

"Chaz quote"
That would mean the mighty porkchop 450r would produce 900 HP if it were judged by HP / Litre .. Thanks for the video .. it proves my point ..

"Joe's quote"
Attachment 511474

Take which ever you like. One of them is real life experience the other is keyboard racing. I am remembering all of the pictures of the Hindenburg disaster that he referenced the "Porkchops" with. I guess the fact that hundreds of thousands of collective hours have been logged on them and the fact that they are pushing boats faster then ever before in outboard history puts that in the keyboard trash category as well. Thanks again to Mercury Racing for providing tons of repeated trouble free excitement opportunity.

A Yamaha R6 holds the record at Daytona. It was set a few years ago and hasn't been beat. Yamaha also holds the Nurburgring record with an R1.

Joe

**David - WI** · 10-24-2022, 06:30 PM

I think most interesting statement (above) is... "Polaris is spreading the use of its Patriot Boost engine introduced last year".

If history is any guide... then about ten years from now Mercury will be touting it‘s new V8, V10, and V12 two-stroke outboards that are pushing boats faster than ever before, too.

I‘m not interested in fighting/bashing anybody that's happy with their four-stroke, but I think if somebody puts a "modern" two-stroke in the ring there will be a new champ.