Compare and contrast Talon 22 and Liberator 21

[Risco]

Actually I've been watching a lot of videos on LCB and Wicked, I think I'm adding them to my list

As long as a hop doesn't bother you and don't care about making 90 degree truns at any speed lcb or wicked is way to go.

If they made a bigger lcb with twins I'd own one. Personally I dont like center mounted cats for rough water.

[Spectre Powerboats]

I will tell you this from being a long time boater and a builder. Go ride in the different boats and talk to guys who have owned them, throw out the "he said, she said bs". If you can, go look at how they are built. You may find a Skater copy, LCB or Liberator is a better boat for you. We are all different and have different liking. Just make sure it is what you want, because buying a boat off of other peoples hype may not turn out so good for you. Good luck!

[JPEROG]

Todd is building the Talons like a boat should be built and the one that Randy has will NOT break. Its built the way that I want my stuff which always requires me making changes to everything that I own. I put Randy and Todd D. together so he has the ability to get you a new Wicked as well. For a 20 foot boat, I have never seen anything handle as well as the Wicked. Mine is going to be getting Randy's touch put to it in the next few months. It ran 115 with a stock 300X before I started to disassemble it. I have it stashed in a garage up in Ormond if you want to check it out. The liberators are not in the same class build quality wise-my personal opinion.

Joe
386 527 1845

[JPEROG]

As long as a hop doesn't bother you and don't care about making 90 degree truns at any speed lcb or wicked is way to go.

If they made a bigger lcb with twins I'd own one. Personally I dont like center mounted cats for rough water.

He has plans for a 25 and 32 in the future-start saving your pennies Ryan-
Joe

[mjw930]

I will tell you this from being a long time boater and a builder. Go ride in the different boats and talk to guys who have owned them, throw out the "he said, she said bs". If you can, go look at how they are built. You may find a Skater copy, LCB or Liberator is a better boat for you. We are all different and have different liking. Just make sure it is what you want, because buying a boat off of other peoples hype may not turn out so good for you. Good luck!

I hear you, that's why I'm deep into the discovery phase and trying to soak up all the info I can. I did the same back in the '90's when I wanted to go Offshore racing. I spend 2 years with Steve Stepp learning everything he was willing to share. I never parted with enough money to fund my own team but I partnered with a couple people and was able to run off and on for a few seasons and had some great times in my personal Velocity and made some good friends.

Some things are constant in the boat building industry and when someone is laying up a boat who understands the stresses racing puts on hulls, decks, stringers and bulkheads it shows. You can use the best materials and the best layup schedules in the world but if you don't have your basic engineering correct it just isn't going to last or perform.

I like what I see with your builds and the Talon has always been a gorgeous design. I may just have to catch a flight up to Ohio to check them out in person since Randy can't seem to get his back from PPI

[Spectre Powerboats]

I hear you, that's why I'm deep into the discovery phase and trying to soak up all the info I can. I did the same back in the '90's when I wanted to go Offshore racing. I spend 2 years with Steve Stepp learning everything he was willing to share. I never parted with enough money to fund my own team but I partnered with a couple people and was able to run off and on for a few seasons and had some great times in my personal Velocity and made some good friends.

Some things are constant in the boat building industry and when someone is laying up a boat who understands the stresses racing puts on hulls, decks, stringers and bulkheads it shows. You can use the best materials and the best layup schedules in the world but if you don't have your basic engineering correct it just isn't going to last or perform.

I like what I see with your builds and the Talon has always been a gorgeous design. I may just have to catch a flight up to Ohio to check them out in person since Randy can't seem to get his back from PPI

There is a new all white with a black windshield Talon 22 SS being built right now for a guy in Florida that will have a 300xs on it. I can hook you up with him to review it once he takes delivery or you are more than welcome at my shop anytime. We also started a red with black windshield Talon 22 XL this week. I will post pictures of it's build as we progress with it. Thanks

[mjw930]

Todd is building the Talons like a boat should be built and the one that Randy has will NOT break. Its built the way that I want my stuff which always requires me making changes to everything that I own. I put Randy and Todd D. together so he has the ability to get you a new Wicked as well. For a 20 foot boat, I have never seen anything handle as well as the Wicked. Mine is going to be getting Randy's touch put to it in the next few months. It ran 115 with a stock 300X before I started to disassemble it. I have it stashed in a garage up in Ormond if you want to check it out. The liberators are not in the same class build quality wise-my personal opinion.

Joe
386 527 1845

Thanks Joe, I may take you up on the offer to get up close and personal with your Wicked. Then again, according to a few post up, the Wicked hops and won't turn

[F14]

The original post asked for comparison between two boats. Why do these posts always get so derailed. I think sticking to the original question would help him and his decision-making quite a bit. And it might help Todd, one of the sponsors of this forum sell a awesome boat.

[JPEROG]

I don't know what he is talking about. I don't see any hop going on here and its in flat water.
https://youtu.be/llCUw1pScKY

Joe

[mjw930]

The original post asked for comparison between two boats. Why do these posts always get so derailed. I think sticking to the original question would help him and his decision-making quite a bit. And it might help Todd, one of the sponsors of this forum sell a awesome boat.

Actually it hasn't derailed much and since I couldn't edit the thread title to add LCB/Wicked. I welcome the additional info.

Basically I'm looking for a good, well built air entrapment rig capable of good performance with a single outboard. I welcome all comments.

[jpf091959]

Nothing wrong with the Talon's or Liberator's, I really like them. I boat the Columbia River in Washington state and the water can get whipped up, so I went with an Eliminator Daytona 22. It is a little deeper and if you get the carbon fiber - kevlar, it is pretty light as well. Below is a 110mph pass, the boat planes real easy and I have seen above 115 mph with 300xs.

Now if you live close to Wildman, I would have him rig what ever you get, he is one of the best.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKKH8V12x2U

[mjw930]

I don't know what he is talking about. I don't see any hop going on here and its in flat water.
https://youtu.be/llCUw1pScKY

Joe

I noticed him slowly adding right correction to the wheel as speed picked up but it looked like a dead straight run. Was that countering prop walk or was he actually turning the boat to the right. I'm also wondering why it's rigged with an external steering ram instead of the power system Randy uses. It it a strength or precision issue or just a personal preference?

[mjw930]

Nothing wrong with the Talon's or Liberator's, I really like them. I boat the Columbia River in Washington state and the water can get whipped up, so I went with an Eliminator Daytona 22. It is a little deeper and if you get the carbon fiber - kevlar, it is pretty light as well. Below is a 110mph pass, the boat planes real easy and I have seen above 115 mph with 300xs.

Now if you live close to Wildman, I would have him rig what ever you get, he is one of the best.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKKH8V12x2U

gorgeous boat.

[JPEROG]

I noticed him slowly adding right correction to the wheel as speed picked up but it looked like a dead straight run. Was that countering prop walk or was he actually turning the boat to the right. I'm also wondering why it's rigged with an external steering ram instead of the power system Ramdy uses. It it a strength or precision issue or just a personal preference?

You can run the power steering with a side ram or front mount. We just set my STV up with power steering and a side ram combination. The side ram uses a wing plate that is attached with multiple bolts to the midsection making it fail safe. The front mount ram uses one bolt to guide the tiller arm which is controlled by the ram that is attached with two small bolts. The down side to a side mount and wing plate is cost.

Joe

[mjw930]

You can run the power steering with a side ram or front mount. We just set my STV up with power steering and a side ram combination. The side ram uses a wing plate that is attached with multiple bolts to the midsection making it fail safe. The front mount ram uses one bolt to guide the tiller arm which is controlled by the ram that is attached with two small bolts. The down side to a side mount and wing plate is cost.

Joe

Not being fully up to speed on the mechanics of the Merc steering on an O/B leads to these questions. The tiller on an I/O was a throw away part for us. The other downside to the single external ram is its unbalanced, it takes more turns to turn left than right. Or is that right than left...... Been too many years since I did a single ram I/O

I checked out the diagrams for the 300XS HD steering (still confused on the differences in the 300XS product line such as which particular model numbers are "HD") and it looks like the Seastar Pro system with power assist should be both adequate and perform well in a Talon 22 or Wicked 20 single installation. With the outdrives the weak link was the gimbal. On top of that is the massive leverage effect since the tiller was so far removed from the thrust axis. On the Outboard the tiller is part of the housing and has no gimbal to deal with and has very little "lever" compared to an I/O. I understand the extra safety margin the external ram systems provide but in keeping with my budget targets I'll probably go with the Seastar system.