GM and Ford

[Richard K.C. Mo.]

No matter how liberal ( A baldwin, A franken) , there 's always reallity we can fall back on so i don't know what the worry is.??
RichardKCMo

[Richard K.C. Mo.]

I 've taught all my children or tryed to , some times dad wasn't to responsible ,as momma said but i'm now trying to tell my Grandkids to be careful of things, and i have 17 counting the Marriages , they all call me by my right name ,GRANDPA so it really doesn't matter but i'm so sorry for some that do not understand that we're lied to some times.

I've lived in the area of D.C. been some time but haven't forgotten , i think on cold nights as i'm fueling the fire in my wood stove , soon to be coal....
RichardKCMo

[sho305]

They said today if GM went under they estimate it would cost the Fed $200 Billion to fund the pensions. They figure if they do Chap 11 now it will turn into Chap 7 liquidation because the BANKS will not finance a reorganization at this time, just like they will not finance cars or homes. Then many suppliers that have GM as largest customer would go under.

It is something to see the Fed stop with the TARP thing, giving the banks money did nothing but pay their bonuses the way I see it....doh. What a farce.

[6Killer]

If GM goes under, the domino effect will be tremendous. Everything from basic industries like steel, energy and many others will be slammed. Electronics, and everything else will suffer. Dealers will close, retirees will loose everything, real estate will crash even further along with more banks, lots more. Yummy. People do not grasp how the auto industry has tenticles throught the USA. This will get very ugly quick and I mean really quick.

[Mark75H]

Or, before things actually shut down, another company will purchase the factories and keep 60% of them in operation ...

You two gotta stop banging the UAW's drum

[mr_velocity]

Let them go Chap 11 then let the gov finance them with low interest loans. This the best for all of us. If we give them money before a Chap 11 restructuring they'll just pi$$ is all away.

[sho305]

Let them go Chap 11 then let the gov finance them with low interest loans. This the best for all of us. If we give them money before a Chap 11 restructuring they'll just pi$$ is all away.

That might be a good idea, but you better make sure that is what happens if that road is taken or what 6killer says will be reality. Mark75H, I don't see that happening who has any money for that? Even if they do they will take the most profitable lines and likely ship the dies to other plants to make just those cars. It will be the same as if GM bought Chrysler, they would make Jeeps and trucks and a few others and trash the rest and pick up very few employees. Nobody would buy GM unless all the pensions are gone/etc, everyone sees what happened to the place that bought Chrysler they are screwed. Even if you make the Chap 11 work the US Govt will be paying an awesome amount in pensions that will hurt! And by the time you do that some suppliers will go down the tubes anyway. Who will buy GM cars from a bankrupt company, sales will fold when any recovery takes place.

[DOORSHOT]

Or, before things actually shut down, another company will purchase the factories and keep 60% of them in operation ...

You two gotta stop banging the UAW's drum

What company will do that? Cerberus made a move on chrysler and I think that they are about as well organized,liquid,intelligent ran company in the world but have not been able to restructure or turn chrysler around. I'm not too sure that there is a player big enough that would want anything with Chrysler or Gm. Besides what would be the gain in buying a product that is unpopular,a headache like the uaw, all of the legacy costs, old factories, an over weight dealer network, & a r&d that has nothing going on and don't even bring up the volt.

[mr_velocity]

. Even if you make the Chap 11 work the US Govt will be paying an awesome amount in pensions that will hurt! And by the time you do that some suppliers will go down the tubes anyway. Who will buy GM cars from a bankrupt company, sales will fold when any recovery takes place.

This is why I keep saying look at UAL. My uncle retired from there a couple years before the chap 11 filing. He lost 30% of his pension and is paying to help fund his health care. It didn't break him to give up a little and it sure helped the airline become viable again. It can and will work, GM needs the monkey off their back in order to survive.

[David]

They need to cut a deal where everyone hurts:

Execs give up guaranteed bonus money + salary
Union gives up some current wages & benefits
Pensioners give up something
Company provides a business plan that isn't fantasy

That was the model in 1979 when Chrysler got loan guarantees.

[Mark75H]

I don't see that happening who has any money for that? Even if they do they will take the most profitable lines and likely ship the dies to other plants to make just those cars. It will be the same as if GM bought Chrysler, they would make Jeeps and trucks and a few others and trash the rest and pick up very few employees. Nobody would buy GM unless all the pensions are gone/etc, everyone sees what happened to the place that bought Chrysler they are screwed. Even if you make the Chap 11 work the US Govt will be paying an awesome amount in pensions that will hurt! And by the time you do that some suppliers will go down the tubes anyway. Who will buy GM cars from a bankrupt company, sales will fold when any recovery takes place.

You point out a lot of the problems.

#1 is no one is going to buy the cars anyway ... bankruptcy isn't the issue ... people aren't able to afford cars from any maker

#2, more of a question to you than problem ... where is it a law anywhere that says the US government is responsible for the UAW pensions? That just came in out of the blue. Did the government swoop in when the Studebaker pensions were dissolved?

Like I said, start thinking for yourself and not repeating UAW line

[mr_velocity]

You point out a lot of the problems.

#1 is no one is going to buy the cars anyway ... bankruptcy isn't the issue ... people aren't able to afford cars from any maker

This IS the problem, under current union contracts they have to pay employees 95% of their salary when the suspend production at the plant. Suspending production or slowing production will not help them conserve cash. With Chap 11 they can throw the union contracts out the door, conserve cash and survive.

[Mark75H]

No, you are twisting my words.

I meant that being afraid of GM cars becoming orphans is not stopping people from buying GM cars ... not being able to afford a car is stopping people from buying cars.

[mr_velocity]

No, you are twisting my words.

I meant that being afraid of GM cars becoming orphans is not stopping people from buying GM cars ... not being able to afford a car is stopping people from buying cars.

Didn't mean to twist your words. I agree that people can't afford or finance a new car, from any manufacturer. GM must slow down, suspend production and conserve cash. They can't because they must continue to pay the UAW workers 95%. Other car companies that don't have these contracts can suspend production and conserve the cash.

No doubt its a mess, I don't think a bailout will be coming unless something changes at the big 3.

[Tango]

Right now Vought Aircraft is doing something for the American Industry and that is breaking a Union! Their International Aerospace machinists (IAM 735) union voted to go on strike September 27th and has been on Strike ever since. Approximately 1000 workers walked out. Vought Aircraft has seen how the Union has been crippling the company over the years and proactively hired an outside Contracting firm to supply over 600 aviation skilled workers to replace all the Union workers. In 49 days we have met the learning curve, accelerated beyond the Union's effective production in some areas by 400% and met production goals that would have had to be pushed back til the 2nd quarter of NEXT YEAR, costing the company MILLIONS of dollars in lost earnings, bonuses and payroll.

Here is the company website listing the information: http://www.voughtaircraft.com/employ...ages/index.htm

If you visit the link above you can see that the offer was substantial! There are NOT licensed FAA A&P mechanics or assemblers. These are people who were hired from Burger King and the such, taught to do a production task and paid an average of $21.48 per hour wage. Get this... if they worked a Saturday whether or not they made 40 hours in the week, they got paid doubletime... and tripletime for Sunday!!

Read the website info. Its hysterical! The amounts of sabotage they would pull off just so they would not have to work is astounding. Yet... get paid cause it was listed as mechanical downtime for repairs. Things like messing up a mill machine and get paid while maintenance came to fix it! The company is fed up and will break the Unions at its other locations pending Union Contract renewals.

News video coverage the weekend of the strike: http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?S=9083597

Unions have crippled the United States' ability to compete in the World marketplace for aviation supremecy. Something the Japanese industry is not a player in but our European counterparts are! In fact... the Airbus wing assemblies are made HERE IN NASHVILLE by Americans! This is a crushing blow to the US economy when Billions in labor dollars are being kept from the economy by Union strikes across the country.