300r vs 300xs on same boat

[Chaz]

OK...back our regularly scheduled program...

Z06Man texted me that the 24 Skater made 2 back to back passes at 122.5 with 2 guys and 3/4 tank of fuel with a 35 DeWald thru hub out of rpm. It’ll be interesting if he gets a Cleaver-style prop on it.

Nice work so far, fellas.

How fast did Tom Kennady go @ LOTTO with his 24' and 3.0L motors ? (baseline)

How much faster should another 1600 cc (300R) get ya ?

How much faster should another 1600 cc (450R) and a screw blower be ?

Valid questions about hardware, not people. So let's keep emotion out of the equation and stick with facts ...

[JPEROG]

It will be the fastest 24 to date when they have it dialed in. This does show you just how well Tom Kennedy had his 24 with X motors perfected to run mid 20s "but it wasn't with two people and 400+ pounds of fuel"--The 4.6 will continue to impress people but propellers are a key factor that many are not used to dealing with yet. Remember that this is a de-tuned version compared to a 300X (add another 500 to the limiter, give it another 3 points of squeeze to run on 93 octane, port the head castings, add variable valve timing) all things that would bring it to the "tweak" level of a 300X and we will see things continue to spread out.

I am very confident that my DW 28 will run 130 before I am done with it (stock 300R motors). As for wanting to hang another another 300 lbs. (or being able to afford to) for the 450s- Its not feasible nor can afford to but based on the results that have been proven with the DW32 and DW36, there is another 7 mph in the picture (above the 400R) 12 mph (above the 300R) and bunch of acceleration. Myrick (performance boat center) clicked off a 133 pass last week in a new 36 and hasn't modified anything on the hull for pick up ramps yet. I think we will see 140 mph outboard pleasure cats (a scary thought) in the near future as predicted when these motors first came about (there is still a lot of untapped opportunity with this platform).



Joe

[mjw930]

It will be the fastest 24 to date when they have it dialed in. This does show you just how well Tom Kennedy had his 24 with X motors perfected to run mid 20s "but it wasn't with two people and 400+ pounds of fuel"--The 4.6 will continue to impress people but propellers are a key factor that many are not used to dealing with yet.

I am very confident that my DW 28 will run 130 before I am done with it. As for wanting to hang another another 300 lbs. (or being able to afford to) for the 450s- Its not feasible nor can afford to but based on the results that been proven with the DW32 and DW36, there is another 7 mph in the picture and bunch of acceleration. Myrick clicked off a 133 pass last week in a new 36 and hasn't modified anything to on the hull for pick up ramps yet. I think we will see 140 mph outboard pleasure cats in the near future as predicted when these motors first came about (there is still a lot of untapped opportunity with this platform).

Joe

Joe,

Don't forget the additional thing you predicted that goes along with these speeds and the inherent nature of the Outboard versions on these boats running at these speeds. One could argue that just because you can doesn't mean you should.......

[Z06man]

Tom Kennedy has had a lot of time to work on set up and has built 1 of the best looking 24s out there and if someone would like to trade there 300Rs for his 300X I will forward you his number he is willing to trade. I think he went 119 last year and was light on fuel 1 person with x motors running high test .He has been 124 in the past with 1 up .There is no denying the 300R is faster than the X or XS motors and doing it on regular gas , I would say a 5- 7 mph improvement on same boat is fantastic I dont care if it was 50cc or 5000cc if the weight is close and it is available to buying public . I know that more power can be made out of other motors but most cant afford what it cost to build or keep them running much lees have 3 years of warranty and can add 2 more.

[Z06man]

And more power is to come out of the slugs , already working on that.

[JPEROG]

Joe,

Don't forget the additional thing you predicted that goes along with these speeds and the inherent nature of the Outboard versions on these boats running at these speeds. One could argue that just because you can doesn't mean you should.......

I edited my post in a few areas--yes, Mark is 100% correct that >7000 cats and 140 mph are only safe in the hands of very few and just because you can afford it, doesn't mean you need to do it. We all know that you can make 120 mph outboard recipes very easily at this point so there is nothing to prove by killing people when something goes bad.

Joe

[engineermike]

I think it’s funny that the 2-stroke loyalists are all concerned about unfair displacement when the 3.0/3.2’s are getting beat by 4.6’s, but when the 2.6 4-strokes were running with 3.0/3.2 2-strokes no one said a word about it.

[mjw930]

I edited my post in a few areas--yes, Mark is 100% correct that >7000 cats and 140 mph are only safe in the hands of very few and just because you can afford it, doesn't mean you need to do it. We all know that you can make 120 mph outboard recipes very easily at this point so there is nothing to prove by killing people when something goes bad.

Joe

I'm really not trying to be a downer with my comment but the Fiori thread resurrection brought it to mind. It's also concerning that insurance at both the operator and manufacturer level has all but dried up. When it becomes easier to insure yourself as a skydiver than a boat pilot things have gotten out of hand.

[HydroSkreamin]

How fast did Tom Kennady go @ LOTTO with his 24' and 3.0L motors ? (baseline)

How much faster should another 1600 cc (300R) get ya ?

How much faster should another 1600 cc (450R) and a screw blower be ?

Valid questions about hardware, not people. So let's keep emotion out of the equation and stick with facts ...

Not quite sure about any emotion involved in my post. If you're referring to "fellas", I meant Warren, I guess. I'm definitely about the facts, 100%.

One thing I guess most people don't know about me is I cut my teeth in the aftermarket world porting cylinders and doing dyno development for one of the names of the day in the snowmobile drag/oval/lake-race/watercross, as well as motocross and watercraft, so I'm very aware of 2-stroke potential.

After that I went to blown-alcohol tractor pulling engines, as well as big-blocks and hemis for 4WD truck pulling and drag racing, and circle track 9:1 SBC's, so I've kind of worked on everything, and been privileged to support multiple local and national championships with all kinds of power. I appreciate all of it.

That being said, Eddie Lawson and Kenny Roberts were my heroes as well. Got to meet Eddie in Havasu a couple of years ago. I don't idolize people whatsoever, but it's pretty cool to shake the hand and bench race with one of your childhood heroes. Do you realize the budget those guys had? I was told that King Kenny had a double digit million$ budget for the 2-stroke stuff. That's not quite what we're ever going to talk about w/OB's here.

Like it or not OUR GOVERNMENT put the restrictions on emissions that the mfg's have to live with now. The equipment, testing, and accountability involved with performing EPA certification is mind boggling. When you and I modify one of these we are expecting to never have to deal with the gubmint, but if you ask the Screamin Eagle boys and the aftermarket diesel guys how that's working for them, it's not going to be a pleasant conversation, I assure you. The "rulebook" changed forever, like it or not. So for a manufacturer to offer us performance with compliance and a warranty seems to be popular, as witnessed by the backlog Merc had for new product.

I say it's time for the aftermarket to come up with kits to enhance these slumbering engines. You seem pretty adept at cam/cylinder head/intake/piston combos as witnessed by your dragster performance. If you can keep the heads on it, twist that screw blower up on the 450R, tip the can and show us a 1000 HP dyno sheet (provided everything stays together). All ya gotta do is....one of my favorite sayings to hear!

[tom kennedy]

How fast did Tom Kennady go @ LOTTO with his 24' and 3.0L motors ? (baseline)

How much faster should another 1600 cc (300R) get ya ?

How much faster should another 1600 cc (450R) and a screw blower be ?

Valid questions about hardware, not people. So let's keep emotion out of the equation and stick with facts ...

The 1st year at Loto shootout with the 24 and set of 2000 PROMAXES I ran 120MPH IN ONE MILE
THE best I ran in the 24 at the shootout in the 24 was 122 with the x motors !!! These speeds are in a mile hot as hell! hardly any chop . That 24 easily ran 123 + in the fall runs flat out (cool air and water , nice chop) ! The 28 that I have now will run 125 +an that has x motors!! Believe me I am definitely interested in the 300 R but I will hold off until they come out with the 15 “setup ect

[Z06man]

Start saving those 100 bills Tom dont want them to catch you needed a few extra bucks when they come out. You can put them a on a new DW 32 Race the wife will never complain about the wind again. You can always rent me a seat.

[tom kennedy]

Start saving those 100 bills Tom dont want them to catch you needed a few extra bucks when they come out. You can put them a on a new DW 32 Race the wife will never complain about the wind again. You can always rent me a seat.

I really need to start playing the lottery Paul !!
lol !!! Looking forward to seeing you fellas this year at loto if
all goes as planned ! Work really seems to get in the way these days !
Yes the wife would definitely be happy with a canopy - wind screen

[Chaz]

Everyone speaks with a bit of emotion, including myself. It's OK to be passionate about a subject .. many times it does get in the way of facts. When no new facts came from the second test .. Did it mean that the new record was to be kept secret or that there was no improvement ..? Sure, I could have called directly and found out. But if the story "broke" here, then the truth can be told here as well.

My NHRA / IHRA license was good to 6.00 / 250 MPH. It took two drivers with the same or better credentials, and a track official to sign off on my ability to race against someone in the other lane at those speeds. I've signed at least 100 licenses during my time as a driver. About 10 years ago it dawned on me, that I wouldn't trust me in the other lane any longer. So I hung up my helmet.
Fire truck, ambulance,tech officials in your face, I've watched many wrist bands get pulled off of guys for having beer on their breath. Much like the skydiver, about all you can do inside the concrete walls is kill yourself and/or the other guy.
Daddy big bucks with more dollars than sense can leave the sand bar and do a lot of damage on the way home. The only checks in place are the other drunks at the sand bar or if a water cop doesn't like what he see's . I think we are all old enough to know if you get thrown out of an open cockpit boat at 100 / 110 / 120 / 130 / 140 it's not going to end well. I'm pretty sure everyone here has pushed what they got to the limit. Hopefully, they don't do it with others in the boat ... and use a little common sense along the way.

The reason I mentioned Tom's boat is because ... he didn't say it. The announcer did on radio and live feed. It wasn't a "well my cell phone and GPS matched" so it's gotta be true .. besides I read it on fazebook ..
No .. I mentioned it as a baseline, because while the 300R can run with it, so far it hasn't been any faster. Yea.. I know >> If my aunt was my uncle, If I had the right props ... you just wait .. etc. etc. etc ...
Is there more inside .. Ray Charles can see that. Will the aftermarket turn it into the next LS ? My crystal ball broke long ago .. for those that say it's happening as we speak .. Show me the parts .. or at least a magazine add .. you know COMING SOON Not calling anyone a liar .. just maybe a little wishful thinking motivated by .. emotion
The majority of them are snatched up by the "half a dozen motors across the transom" crowd, I reckon if they demand cams, springs and piston kits .. then your in luck, otherwise , not so much .

The X has a trapped compression ratio of just shy of 6:1 Why does it need 93 octane ? It has a poor combustion chamber / piston crown configuration. And it has oil in the intake charge. Anyone who has done any power adder stuff will tell you first hand what comes next. Oil kills octane, if your lucky you'll only lip the piston. And it also has a log furnace burning just outside of a very short exhaust port.
None of which is conducive to running cheap fuel .. and miles away from being "cutting edge two-stroke technology" .. it's just the best they were willing to give the public at the time. Since they are such junk compared to the new wave stuff .. peeps should be just about giving them away, to not be stuck with them ...

I don't think i would talk too much about the supercharged 2.6L four stroke. Take the screw off the side, it would make 250 HP maybe .. but I wouldn't do that, even though it says 400 on the side .. I have yet to see one of them that act like they had 100 HP more than a 3.0L .. just an observation.

Hydro .. I'd put "Top Fuel Hoops" in anything I was gonna turn up the boost on. And even a boat I'd have to run it on 85% corn ...

[Z06man]

How can a 24 skater with same Garmin GPS and a hand held he had before he changed from 300XS TO 300Rs motors go from 117 light best run ever to 122 + back to back runs WITH 2 UP AND A GOOD LOAD OF FUEL NOT BE ANY FASTER and this is first set of props he tried . And Randys 21 Liberators go from having trouble breaking 100MPH to all running 111-114 He weighs the boats and all with in 50 lbs + or -. I have run his 21s with 300XS and 300R The R boat is way faster I do not even understand how it gains that much speed but he is even using the same manual plates . My 28DW Fat Cat with 300Rs was faster than the other 2 28s that had 300XSs and my boat was the heavy 1 of the 3. Steve Bishop gained a huge amount of speed on a bullet bass boat when going from 300XS to the 300R .Every 1 that I have talked to has gained speed and hole shot going from X OR XS motors . Maybe in theory they should not be faster but in real life they are.

[Z06man]

Randy can confirm speed gains he water tests every boat .