2 Cycle is King over 4 Stroke by my comparison formula.

[FMP]

Never have stock outboard boats gone faster then with today's 4 stroke power. No debate, just proven fact.

Joe

Think they're cleaner at full load wide open? I don't think so. Stinks like a Hyundai Pony on the onramp pegged legged.

I know, they're fast I'm always behind them. Only time I pass them is when they're at the gas station.

[JPEROG]

BRP made bold claims and delivered plenty of data on the etec emissions. None of the other camps followed suit because they arent as clean is the only rational reason why. If Merc hp power for power was cleaner than the etec that would have been an easy sales leader but nothing? The silence speaks. The public has bought the line that two snokes are dirty mostly because of califorincators and their regulation schemes. BRP has quietly reintroduced the etec again publishing emissions info while going light on the fact that they are two strokes.

what i cant believe is how i can run a 850 two stroke sled to the nuts for hundreds of miles and use so little fuel and ridiculously low amounts of oil. Those Rotax guys, have done their homework. Ive had such good luck with Rotax over the years both with performance and reliability so yes im a fanboy, for good reason

I agree, the 850s are great all around and don't hardly smoke at idle but we now have 4 of the 900 ACE our snow fleet and they are the ones that get used the most. The others rest on standby. We have continued to purchase more BRP product over the last two years so I agree 100% with your statements. I am waiting on a new 4 door closed cab defender to help maintain our ice tracks.

Joe

[JPEROG]

Think they're cleaner at full load wide open? I don't think so. Stinks like a Hyundai Pony on the onramp pegged legged.

I know, they're fast I'm always behind them. Only time I pass them is when they're at the gas station.

NEVER had I bought or built a boat with fuel consumption in mind, UNTIL, we stopped having the ability to get good fuel on the water. Now I can run as far and as hard as possible being that we can find 90 rec everywhere on the river. Guys can run big power at LOTO because there is premium 93 non ethanol everywhere and race fuel at several. I really don't care about anything other then dependability, drive-ability, and performance. The fourstrokes are better in all categories for my applications. I am not an emissions pusher but rather a performance enthusiast that enjoys "ease of use". My chainsaws and leaf blowers are all still two stroke because they perform the best.

Joe

[JPEROG]

35% more displacement ..... AND a woodchipper hangin off the side of the head ..

Chaz = rememberin, you just wait till the 300r comes out ... LMAO remind me about 2022 Key West .. again.

Chaz = don't, see the mad rush to write home to mom over either one ...

But wait, if you order now, 10 ... 12 ... why stop there .. 24 cyl , 96 valve , 900 mules , 1500 pound ...... outboards. cuz thats what ya need to power your new 80' cat to run the flat as glass rivers of central Fl ..

Not sure who you are referring to. But for me, I boated 450 hours on Lake of the Ozarks last season and it was moderate chop at best. I also logged just shy of a couple hundred hours on the St. Johns river and there were many trips to Jacksonville that boats under 24 feet didn't attempt or didn't finish. Part of the advantage to having new power is we run 5 times the distance that we used to due to fuel availability. The runs from to DeLand to Palatka are now opened up to Sanford to Jacksonville & back in a day. You need come along next weekend.

As for the Super Stock boats, if the 300XS was the best answer, everyone would still have them "boat racers don't make a change to go slower or make things less likely to make the finish line".

I like your tractor....

Joe

[Chaz]

The butthurt from some members of this board when they read something they don't like is comical.

My boats have 2 stroke motors, I love them but they aren't the future sorry for pointing that out.

And Chaz, the GW Invader was a piece of **** for me, the guy who bought it love the stupid thing. Different strokes for different folks I guess. But thanks for the personal attack, maybe that is part of the reason S&F isn't an active forum, asshole members like you.

Yea bouy .. you sure did get butthurt. Even more than that, your mangina appears to be .. well, you know ..

Maybe you missed the memo about the cottage industry .. who could care less about what's on the showroom floor. But you shouldn't worry about what they sellin, since your puttin a old motor on a new boat yourself ..

BTW, it's not the future .. it's the only thing they're selling now .. miss that memo too .. ??? No need to answer, I already know ..

I didn't attack you .. or call you an azzhole. I just wondered if you said the boat was a POS to the new buyer ... yea, buddy .. you and your family is really gonna enjoy goin out and gettin towed back in this POS ..

Anything else I can help ya with .. ???

Hey .. I'll bet you real name is Whitmer ... ain't it ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not sure who you are referring to. But for me, I boated 450 hours on Lake of the Ozarks last season and it was moderate chop at best. I also logged just shy of a couple hundred hours on the St. Johns river and there were many trips to Jacksonville that boats under 24 feet didn't attempt or didn't finish. Part of the advantage to having new power is we run 5 times the distance that we used to due to fuel availability. The runs from to DeLand to Palatka are now opened up to Sanford to Jacksonville & back in a day. You need come along next weekend.

As for the Super Stock boats, if the 300XS was the best answer, everyone would still have them "boat racers don't make a change to go slower or make things less likely to make the finish line".

I like your tractor....

Joe

People have run long distances in two stroke outboards since before I was born. And I'll bet that they still do it ... I'm sure you could find a small cubby onboard for a gallon of octane booster or two .. for the longer trips.

25 years from now, when the 300r motors break down .. folks are gonna say, them old motors are so unreliable ... yet there will be guys with a dozen of them in their shop bringing them back to ... better than new condition.

By avoiding the Key West question and mentioning the next run .. I take that to mean you can't say that even with 500 lbs of extra weight added. The 300xs after three grueling days .. would emerged as the overwhelming champion ...
Mama Debs in Martin Memorial, fifth floor right now, so you'll have to forgive me if , between her's and my health ... I limit my time a little closer to home. But I miss you too ...

My tractor .. who knew that one day ... you'd have one of them twin lobe wood chipper on the side of your motorz ...

[FMP]

NEVER had I bought or built a boat with fuel consumption in mind, UNTIL, we stopped having the ability to get good fuel on the water. Now I can run as far and as hard as possible being that we can find 90 rec everywhere on the river. Guys can run big power at LOTO because there is premium 93 non ethanol everywhere and race fuel at several. I really don't care about anything other then dependability, drive-ability, and performance. The fourstrokes are better in all categories for my applications. I am not an emissions pusher but rather a performance enthusiast that enjoys "ease of use". My chainsaws and leaf blowers are all still two stroke because they perform the best.

Joe

If you feel that they are better that's good. It would be crap if for you they didn't do what you expected.
I personally don't feel they excel in most HP ranges for a few reasons.
In the smaller 100-200 range , i think they're consumer friendly because of lack of comparison by buyers who have become convinced by marketing or they never have had a good modern 2S. Never did they outperform a modern two stroke in any way.

[David - WI]

Polaris has brand new 840cc turbocharged two-strokes... ridiculous to claim two-stroke are dead or obsolete just because that's what Mercury tells you!

[pcrussell50]

They’re making a bit of a comeback in moto also. And Hu$qvarna never let them die. There’s one reason, and one only why at least some two-strokes are still being developed despite the political and regulatory headwinds.

-Peter

[JPEROG]

Only at automotive weights and displacements. Unless you are willing to step backwards in power and weight. And at automotive weights and displacements, what is the point of having an outboard anyway, besides the novelty of it? Are four, five, or six giant outboards strung across the back of a giant boat, somehow cool and not clownish?

In the lower powers like the 150-200hp class, (Hydrostream and Allison), I can’t find anything much in four stroke below 500lbs. And it’s even worse for smaller power needs. Four stroke weed whackers are twice as expensive and nearly twice as heavy as two-stroke. My smaller Whaler, (I have a 13 and a 17, is rated for 40hp. It has a 40 Yammie two-stroke that weighs 148lbs. I don’t think there is a 40hp four stroke that is not 100lbs heavier, (last time I looked). If I want into a four stroke for that boat, I’ve got to give up power and go from 40hp to 25hp. No thanks.

For many boaters, the kind who aren’t in the automotive engine size class, we may be being forced into a four stroke world, but it is not going to be without significant sacrifice. Thanks to places like this, and the knowledge here, blokes like me can keep boating without the sacrifice. Deeply grateful.

-Peter

We have a new 15" shaft 40 Merc going on a small whaler. I will post pictures and results when its complete. As for the 17' Whaler, I would love to have a 115 Pro XS on it but for now it has one of the two remaining 2 strokes in our little fleet. I seriously doubt that it will have the same performance when I make the switch someday. The 17' airs out nicely and runs just shy of 60 mph.

[JPEROG]

If you feel that they are better that's good. It would be crap if for you they didn't do what you expected.
I personally don't feel they excel in most HP ranges for a few reasons.
In the smaller 100-200 range , i think they're consumer friendly because of lack of comparison by buyers who have become convinced by marketing or they never have had a good modern 2S. Never did they outperform a modern two stroke in any way.

I agree they are missing something in that market segment. I can tell you that my son's STV Pro Comp with a 200 4 stroke has run 106 and has more in set up "my guess is that we will get it to 110". My brand new STV Pro Comp with 200 back in 89' with cut heads, drilled can for exhaust relief, boyesen reeds, and hood vents ran a best of 94 mph.

Joe

[JPEROG]

If you feel that they are better that's good. It would be crap if for you they didn't do what you expected.
I personally don't feel they excel in most HP ranges for a few reasons.
In the smaller 100-200 range , i think they're consumer friendly because of lack of comparison by buyers who have become convinced by marketing or they never have had a good modern 2S. Never did they outperform a modern two stroke in any way.

I agree that they are missing that segment.

[pcrussell50]

3378352[/URL]]We have a new 15" shaft 40 Merc going on a small whaler. I will post pictures and results when its complete. As for the 17' Whaler, I would love to have a 115 Pro XS on it but for now it has one of the two remaining 2 strokes in our little fleet. I seriously doubt that it will have the same performance when I make the switch someday. The 17' airs out nicely and runs just shy of 60 mph.

Good to see more boats like Whalers on a go-fast board like this. Our little Whaler is a 1986, so it has the modern transom and needs a 20”. Our 17 is 1998 Alert, (which is the special service Montauk), and the last year of the classic hull, I am told. Since the four stroke 90 that is on it now is 400lbs, I have entertained the notion putting a 2.0 or 2.4 V6 on it which would be lighter and potentially DOUBLE the power.

So mate, our friendly two-vs-four stroke debate aside… How does the 17 handle at aired-out speeds? Easy peasy? Squirrely? It’s nice to find someone who has done what I have been thinking of doing.

==

3378355[/URL]]I agree that they are missing that segment.

And how, they are. With Merc four stroke 150’s pushing 500lbs, while the 300R is said to be 561, the 150 class is horrible. Now mind some of Mercs 300 for stroke offerings are closer to 650 than 600 too. Not sure what gives there, but it’s Merc’s own data.

Cheers,
Peter

[FMP]

We have a new 15" shaft 40 Merc going on a small whaler. I will post pictures and results when its complete. As for the 17' Whaler, I would love to have a 115 Pro XS on it but for now it has one of the two remaining 2 strokes in our little fleet. I seriously doubt that it will have the same performance when I make the switch someday. The 17' airs out nicely and runs just shy of 60 mph.

I like that Whaler. I can tell you first hand the 115xs from my trying it and comparing everything from seat of the pants get up and go to mid range punch to wide open with different props bouncing it off the limit.... Its nothing compared to any of my favorite 2S in that range, sorry but its a disappointing bunch of stickers.
It idles like nothing I've seen, beautiful, slow trol is perfect and it's smooth as all and it has a decent sound when trying to beat the **** out of it at 6000+ ,but it's a dog.
You could never convince me to swap that 130 for the 115xs.
Now a last year Etec G2 triple from 115-150 , in a second.

[pcrussell50]

This is our Alert 17 (1998 Montauk 17), with the FourStroke Mercaha 90:





The black rub rail and "police gray" color comes with the Special Service Whalers.

===

Anyway getting back on topic, I think both sides are right here. Four strokes are heavy and complex. That makes it hard to capture the efficiencies they offer until you get up into the large displacements and sizes and weights where the finally begin to approach parity in power-to-weight. Based on looking at Mercury and Yamaha web sites, the 100-200hp class is too small for four strokes to come close to the power-to-weight ratio of two strokes. You could never have a 250cc four stroke motocross bike compete against a 250cc two stroke. In moto, the formula is 400cc four stroke to compete against 250cc two stroke. Of course a 400cc four stroke is probably a little more powerful than a 250cc two stroke, as it would need to be in order to be competitive, since it is also heavier.

The first five to seven minutes of this video is VERY instructive in two vs four stroke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSJC29LPj9s

HTH

-Peter

[FMP]

Another cool Whaler. We still see that version sometimes.
And the big motors, well they should just sticker the displacement on the cowl as well.
L or c.i. , then they would have even more bragging rights with huge displacement making underrated HP.