Anyone try using a product made by plascore? It is a honeycomb core board. Wondered if this would be a good replacement for balsa core in a stream?
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Anyone try using a product made by plascore? It is a honeycomb core board. Wondered if this would be a good replacement for balsa core in a stream?
my question is why ?? why would you want to use another core that is nothing like Balsa, and I feel is not the type of core that will stand up to the continued punishment the balsa will with out any problem . Balsa is used for a very good reason so understand that reason you get your own answer !!
I have seen a product like that get shipped to a manufacturer in Detroit Lakes, MN. 4'X8' sheets. Maybe they were using it somewhere on the deck?
If you were to restore a small high speed boat that came with a balsa core... What material would you use for the core?Quote:
Originally Posted by tunnels
James
Balsa ! why would you want to use anything else?Quote:
Originally Posted by W2F a V-King
Just curious what your choice would be. You do this kind of work for a living, and your opinion is of value. So there is no good choice to replace balsa core with any composite?Quote:
Originally Posted by tunnels
Thank you,
James
So many differing opinions on core, there may never be an agreement on what is best.....I wouldn't use balsa for a row boat.....You can see the superior results of using composites for decades to come. Long after the balsa is dust.....
Agreed, just trying to understand all the options. Cost is not the factor for a small area like the Viking. Balsa is little less than 1/2 the cost of Divinycel. I need 3 sheets of the 32"x48" to do my boat in divinycell, or almost 4 2'x4' sheets of balsa. Balsa over time will deteriorate for sure. $200 vs $100. The coosa is what is gonna hurt :( It's a lot more than wood for sure. But once done...it's DONE. :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by XstreamVking
I thought Tunnels didn't use wood in boat building, obviously I was wrong. I've read so many posts on this subject I forget details sometimes.:o
James
If you use the divinycell use the H-80 series for the bottom. The bottom needs the higher physicals. You could make a floor with some H-60 or H-45 series to save some $. Coosa for the trans and stringers can'be beat. Bi-ply 0/45 glass is good for the hull. 0/90 glass is used primarily for stringers to provide longitudinal stiffness.
I'll answer that with one word....ROT!!! If I want wood in a boat I'll buy a 1936 Chris Craft. My Viper was recored with Dininycell and that was a main buying factor for me. GaryQuote:
Originally Posted by tunnels
[QUOTE=W2F a V-King;2898261]Just curious what your choice would be. You do this kind of work for a living, and your opinion is of value. So there is no good choice to replace balsa core with any composite?
Thank you,
James[/QUOTE
All the man made core don't come close to plain everyday balsa not only as a material but the structure of the balsa cells man has not been able to repeat or come close ! Core cell is the only choice OF all the foams on the market that has the toughness and durability to stand the continuous thumping and pounding that happens with the hull panels the moment the boat starts to move across the water!and the faster the harder the thumping ! The CORE thickness used also has a big part to play with these small boats also, some were just 3/8" now they are 1/2 "!!
[QUOTE=XstreamVking;2898293]If you use the divinycell use the H-80 series for the bottom. The bottom needs the higher physicals. You could make a floor with some H-60 or H-45 series to save some $. Coosa for the trans and stringers can'be beat. Bi-ply 0/45 glass is good for the hull. 0/90 glass is used primarily for stringers to provide longitudinal stiffness.[/QUOTE
ON A HULL THAT SMALL WHY HAVE STRINGERS ??If you use a single unidirectional from keel to chine across the top of the core you don't need stringers ! so why bother?
In 1996 I recored "ol grey" with foam and was given 20 gallons of boat yard polyester resin from a place going out of business. I was told it would fall apart, the foam is going to turn to dust, it's going to delam, the styrene is going to dissolve the foam, bla bla bla. To this day it will vibrate your teeth in your head running across a little wind chop and sound like you are in a tin shed during an epic hail storm. I couldn't tell you how many thousands of miles are underneath that boat.
There boats have stringers for a number of reasons, one of which is floor support, a second is for what most of us do with them now they are very highly stressed on a very limited amount of running surface and at times take a tremendous beating when getting out of shape or getting caught out by some surprise boat wakes or pusher barge rollers that all these pontoons and wakeboard boats leave across the lake. Suggesting leaving out an (very) important structural element of a boat your are unfamiliar with and or have zero experience around with some flim flam CSM and this and that lay up is not in the best interest of some peoples projects. /soapbox
My old V-King is another one to prove that foam and composites are gonna last for a lifetime. May be the stiffest boat I have ever had....
ok if you choose to use H-80 foam (WHAT THICKNESS)what would you use contoured or perforated sheet form and how would you stick it down ? what with and how ??
If you use the divinycell use the H-80 series for the bottom. The bottom needs the higher physicals. You could make a floor with some H-60 or H-45 series to save some
with foams always choose a higher density than you first think of not the lower !!
H-45 SHOULD ONLY BE USED FOR A smallish DECK NEVER ANY SURFACE THAT GETS WALKED ON !
I am with the guys trying to find alternatives to wood. There is a guy local here who uses the plascore for all kinds of interesting projects. It comes in different thicknesses and can be laminated on both sides with different kinds of glass. Stuff seems real stout, smacked with a hammer and can barely dent the stuff. Wondered if anyone had experimented with it. We did a viper with the divinicell in the past, but I have yet to see a foam that will not get saturated yet. I realize if sealed up properly this should be no problem but we all know how that seems to go! Looking to build a comp style boat out of my v king sometime soon so researching materials..
That's where I am at right now, planing on building a comp style stringer open floor. I think the lay ups are completely different for the hull, making them lighter overall. And the added stringers must give the hull the rigid foundation, but even they (V-King) comps came with a core laid down. I am hoping for a really light boat when done, without sacrificing strength.
It won't be as light as a real Comp V-King, but hopefully a bit lighter than a stock production one.
James
it is possible to build with no core , no stringers and just 3 different glasses with a little csm between each layer .The secret is in the way the glass layers are orientated within the glass stack .!Quote:
Originally Posted by XXXSTREAM
There is a reason that Skater, DCB, Lavey and a host of others use balsa for their standard rigs .
IF bagged or infused water can't really get to but one small section even if its been penetrated.
Balsas tensile, shear strength and modulus make the man made stuff look piss weak.
Foam core boats over about 24ft put together without a vac bag process are a dice roll as to wether you have voids in the resin/ core bond or not.
UD
yip I totally agree balsa has been round for a long time and has proven it worth !!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Dave
Bring me any 20 year old boat with balsa below the waterline and I will show you what rotten balsa looks like.
Very simply caused by people not doing there job properly in the first place !! Another reason to use PEEL PLY on the last layers laid !.Quote:
Originally Posted by XstreamVking
H80 is too light for the running surface if you want it to last. If you are going to run it fast on it's tail, and you want good handling, put the running pad stringers in.
Thats part of the reason I asked which H80 foam he was going to use contoured or perforated sheet .!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAdams
H-80 has been good in mine for 7 yrs. Many other lower performance boats I have built still running the gulf defect free after 20 yrs? But go to the H-120 if you feel the need....BTW they use the H-120 to core minesweepers......Very tough stuff....
I have built minehunters for the Royal Australian Navy ;)
See, I know this must be true, I haven't discovered how to do it yet. Which 3 different glasses and orientated how?Quote:
Originally Posted by tunnels
This V-King is my first restore that has a core.
Two boats similar to the V-King I did 20+ years ago were Checkmates. Early 70's models, 15' and a 16'. Both of these had no core in the hull. No stringers either. The hulls must have been thicker, or laid up in some way like Tunnels is talking about above.
This process of making a hull without stringers and core must make the boat heavier, But a more simple (faster) build than a boat with a core and stringers, why else would the core be necessary?
Interesting thread...Not trying to reinvent the wheel........Just trying to understand it.
It's easy to make a repair copying what was there that failed.
James
You could make 2 streams with the glass and resin from one of your old checkmates.....
That must have been cool... Very high tech ships!Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAdams
Quote:
Originally Posted by W2F a V-King
Take a look at https://www.corelitecomposites.com/ VERY reasonably priced compared to some of the other composites.
I've done the floors of my tunnel in the Corelite PET and the transom will go in with Corelite Board, which is a 30 or 35lb density structural composite. In my case I used the 35lb and had them make me a 2" thick sandwiched transom. Called my local contact up, told him the size, a couple weeks later I had a 4 layer thick ready made slab. Without some sort of press you'd never be able to get a transom layup this tight. The samples sold me, but when I got my part I was really impressed. I like the lightweight stuff more than the divinycell I've worked with also, Divinycell isn't bad, I just think this is a bit more durable.
End view of my transom board when it was delivered to me.
http://i.imgur.com/qIpck89.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by XstreamVking
Yes, that's my point... a stringer/cored, thin hull is as strong as a thicker hull made out of just glass. The Checkmate is not twice as heavy as a V-King. Not by a long shot. It's not as quick for other reasons besides weight.
The core in a V-King is a 32" strip down the middle. Not like the Vector that has a core running chine to chine. The Vector was not made for the weight/speed of the V-6 motors.
Would adding the glass down the middle be that much heavier than a properly bagged/infused blasa core 32" wide?
Area inside my sloppy black lines is the core in my V-King, maybe yours was different? From the sloppy arrow forward the core tapers to the bow.
Attachment 357008
James
Some guys have just added stringers and glass to the hull, deleted the floor and core. They have had no problems that I know of. A couple lays of 1708 would make it strong enough with a stringer every 12''. You might have some flex, but it would not be much...
remember that the floor was core as well in your vking. where is sits on the sides of the hull it doubled as core like the core on the very sides of a viper above the floor.
They did a good job with the box stringer/floor and core design I believe. I put mine back the factory way and it is very strong. The floor adds a tremendous amount of stiffness to the boat.
stole these pics of a comp vking off facebook and not sure if this is a factory comp but you get the idea on how different the stringer set up is on a comp compared to a standard with a floor
http://i63.tinypic.com/29cpamd.png
http://i66.tinypic.com/2v1ui5y.png
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjdubiel
Thank You! Those pics help a lot!!
James
I have been told that in the pad they still run core even on a comp. I would think some kind of core in that area would be good. But you have to remember going with no core could cause issues when running in lake chop and hard hits on the hull. I am by no means an expert, remember that the most!
Yes, I read somewhere here that the pad on a comp has a 5/8 core, and 3/8 ( I think?) on either side.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjdubiel
I am no expert either, and thus all the questions and thoughts....
Being the fact that mine is not a comp, will building it like one make it as heavy as a stock V-King? Probably.
Comp has 4 more stringers (6 total) and a seat box made into the stringers on a lighter layup, no floor.
Doing all that on a stock production hull (minus the stock stringer box (2 stringers) and stock floor).
Betting the difference isn't much.
Man...all this thinkin has me wishing it was 5-Oclock..;)
Guess If one wants a comp, better to locate one and build it back the way they were made.
James
Samari on this site built his vking with 3/8 core I think. He blew it over and the core was all intact, the rest of the hull was not.
The white vking in the pics is merc mans on here. That boat is an 06 and built by a guy down south. He built 6 of them and his was the heaviest. Let me say, this boat hasnt been babied and yes it has stress cracks but for the most part its held up unbelievably well for a comp hull. Thiat sucker is strong and i know first hand how strong it is