GM and Ford

Just caught part of the automaker CEOs talking on CNBC at congressional hearings that are going on. Wagner said GM and its dealers are around 450 thousand employees.

I would think the UAW is screwed, most of them are gone anyway. In a few years GM will have cut 50% of them since 2005 on its own. The problem is those are all US jobs that are $0 pay now, instead of some pay if they would have made a deal.

They did say average US automaker pay is $72, that is 64% more than Toyota according to a talk show.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Airboater

just heard on the news that UAW said there workers would not take any pay cuts

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Yeah, over the weekend the head of the union said they "would make no more concessions" ... what concessions?

I'm thinking delusions of grandeur :eek:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tango

The Union here has been the reason that foriegn countries have taken many of the US contracts for production of large aircraft assemblies. Embraer is building jets here in the US to save import taxes to our Government, they operate under tax relief and they are not subject to any Union compliance since they are a Foriegn owned company. Thus they can sell an airplane to the Airlines for a cheaper rate than say Boeing because they have a fraction of the manufacturing and corporate costs! Boeing is losing BILLIONS in dollars due to cancelled orders of its new 787 Dreamliner and the backlog issues due to Union Greed! These Union workers want want want yet refuse to work to help the company.

If you have NOTHING to do... And want a Great Union Laugh, read the News Channel 5 Blog for the Vought Strike here in Nashville.

http://www.topix.net/forum/business/...20KCRUBK1VPTU9

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What a friggen joke !!!!!!!!!!
That's what that union has to offer for working on the aircraft that the public straps their azz in. And I thought it was tough to put together a small manufacturing workforce here in south Louisiana. Dang, I got a different outlook as a production manager here now. What a mentality!!!! No wonder all those well qualified workers won't come down here to fill those 150,000 jobs open in the state. This is a right to work state & they would be hard pressed to make a full weeks paycheck with that type of attitude.

AMAZING

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MODXR6

What a friggen joke !!!!!!!!!!
That's what that union has to offer for working on the aircraft that the public straps their azz in. And I thought it was tough to put together a small manufacturing workforce here in south Louisiana. Dang, I got a different outlook as a production manager here now. What a mentality!!!! No wonder all those well qualified workers won't come down here to fill those 150,000 jobs open in the state. This is a right to work state & they would be hard pressed to make a full weeks paycheck with that type of attitude.

AMAZING

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Yeah... its pretty crazy! Today they updated the website to include the info on the new contract the Union is refusing to sign. Here is the lowdown. These guys are Union negotiated to do ONE task. That means if Billy Bob is on wing seals but the clips to hold those seals are out of stock... he gets to sit on his arse til someone from the stock room delivers those parts to him. Of course... the stockroom clerk is Union too. So, until he gets the paperwork from Billy Bob's supervisor requesting the clips he cannot fill the order. So, in the meantime if the guy working next to Billy Bob needs a hand to install the bolts to hold the aileron on... Billy Bob can refuse to help based on that its outside his Union Negotiated Job Scope and pay grade! So he just sits on his arse getting paid for nothing all day.

Here is the link to the site updates.

http://www.voughtaircraft.com/employ...ages/index.htm

Lets hope the backlash to all of this publicity is to make the Democrats too ashamed to push the "Card Check" legislation.

This [card check] could hurt American business more than the mortgage crisis.

It is amazing that the Union comes in without a secret ballot but has to be disbarred with ONLY a secret ballot.

I've been trying to keep up with this thread as I have an older cousin who graduated as a Mechanical Engineer (also from ISU but i got 1 semester left..) who works for GM. He sent out an email to friends and family recently and I figured it'd be good for you guys to read. He brought up alot of things I never thought about or knew. I don't really support a government bailout, but like most of you feel SOMETHING needs to be done, we CANNOT loose the American Automotive industry.

Email from my cousin, an engineer for GM:


I am sure you have been reading about the financial difficulty GM is facing w/ the current credit crisis in the US economy. As has been reported in the media, GM and the other US automakers are seeking a Government Bridge
loan to weather this economic storm. I have been reading a lot of
reactions throughout the US regarding the bridge loans. As a GM employee
I feel compelled to reach out to those who are not directly involved w/ the auto industry to help them better understand why this is a good investment
for the US taxpayer. After you read below that GM will produce a 100 mile
per gallon vehicle and currently produces the most E85 flex fuel vehicles in the US, please express your support of the US automotive industry to your congressman by visiting gmfactsandfiction.com.

I have heard comments that GM is a "dinosaur" and only produces gas
guzzling vehicles. These perceptions were justified 10 years ago but I
feel very strongly that the GM products introduced recently are better than
their foreign competitors and independent media sources agree. Did you
know GM offers more models than any other automotive manufacturer/OEM that
get 30 MPG or better? Did you know that the Chevy Malibu has better fuel
economy than the Toyota Camry and Accord? Same goes for the Chevy
Silverado vs Toyota Tundra. Did you know that GM will be the first OEM to
offer a 100 mile per gallon production vehicle (Chevrolet Volt) in calendar year 2010 (less than 2 years away)? Did you know GM currently has over 100 fuel cell vehicle being tested/evaluated on public roads by our elected officials? One last tidbit when it comes to fuel economy and technology, did you know that the hybrid SUVS and pickups from GM save more fuel
(gallons) per year than a Toyota Prius? GM is committed to reducing our
dependency on foreign oil. Having personally seen the cars GM will be introducing over the next 5 years, I can tell you they will be significantly better than the competition. They will provide class leading fuel economy and quality w/ gorgeous styling (something the foreign
competition does not offer). Without your support and government
assistance, sadly, you will not be able buy these game changing cars.

I have also heard comments that suggest the impact would only be felt in
Michigan. Did you realize that 1 in 10 jobs are tied to the automotive
industry? Furthermore, did you know that Lear Corporation in Iowa City
employs over 800 people (produces interior parts for Buick Lucerne and
Cadillac DTS)? We all know the importance of E85 to the farming community
but were you aware that neither Honda or Toyota offer a single vehicle that can use E85. Without government assistance the US automotive industry will collapse, significantly impacting the demand for E85 production and the farming community.

Many people have the notion that GM has an inefficient work force. Did
you realize that GM employs 60,000 fewer employees than Toyota but has
consistently sold more vehicles . GM also signed a historic labor and
health care agreement w/ the UAW which takes effect in January of 2010.
This agreement will enable GM to compete w/ the Asian Transplants (Toyota, Honda, etc) from a labor cost perspective.

GM is not the inefficient , non-innovator, poor quality vehicle manufacturer it is perceived to be. There is a lot of false/out of date information and/or perceptions regarding the US automotive industry. Please visit gmfactsandfiction.com to express your support of GM and the US automotive industry by contacting your congressman. Click on "I am a concerned American". Fill in your address and name and a form email will
automatically be sent to your congressman. It is that simple! I
sincerely appreciate the time and consideration you have given to the facts about GM. Please share these facts with your friends and family by forwarding this email.

Thanks,
Justin

gmfactsandfiction.com/
---

I think it will help your Cousin by letting the companies go into chapter 11 [reorganization] just like the Airlines and rebuild their business model into one that is sustainable instead of a chronic failure, needing constant tax money transfusions until it dies.

I listened to all three yesterday, and they all said virtually the same thing. It was:

We can't go into bankruptcy, nobody will buy our cars.
We've got a bunch of new fuel efficient vehicles out or on the way.
We've made a "ton" of cutbacks in labor costs.
We were in an excellent position in the 1st quarter of 08, then the market took a crap.

Well, guess it was all too little too late. :rolleyes:

I really don't understand what, where or how this money is going to keep any of the three alive other than a few more months. Chrysler's CEO said their monthly costs are in the neigborhood of $5-$6 billion!!!

If the get there pay inline with toyota and honda they can hire twice as many americans and put out twice the production they are now, I think all of us have taken a pay cut why cant they see we are upset they think that there big salary and benifits should not come into the real world pay and benefits, Matt

Who will buy these cars?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mark75H

Who will buy these cars?

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and who can afford these cars ,I guess the UAW workers dont realize us reg Joe's don't make the big bucks they do .

they wont have to hire more people just saying that when times get good again and they get there overhead under control, they are paying there laborers twice what the competion is with benefits, they need to do like all businesses do cut the fat out and stay alive in tough times that is what we have done we are working on skeleton crew and making it, who will bail me out if I cant make payroll? Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by merccoop

I've been trying to keep up with this thread as I have an older cousin who graduated as a Mechanical Engineer (also from ISU but i got 1 semester left..) who works for GM. He sent out an email to friends and family recently and I figured it'd be good for you guys to read. He brought up alot of things I never thought about or knew. I don't really support a government bailout, but like most of you feel SOMETHING needs to be done, we CANNOT loose the American Automotive industry.

Email from my cousin, an engineer for GM:


I am sure you have been reading about the financial difficulty GM is facing w/ the current credit crisis in the US economy. As has been reported in the media, GM and the other US automakers are seeking a Government Bridge
loan to weather this economic storm. I have been reading a lot of
reactions throughout the US regarding the bridge loans. As a GM employee
I feel compelled to reach out to those who are not directly involved w/ the auto industry to help them better understand why this is a good investment
for the US taxpayer. After you read below that GM will produce a 100 mile
per gallon vehicle and currently produces the most E85 flex fuel vehicles in the US, please express your support of the US automotive industry to your congressman by visiting gmfactsandfiction.com.

I have heard comments that GM is a "dinosaur" and only produces gas
guzzling vehicles. These perceptions were justified 10 years ago but I
feel very strongly that the GM products introduced recently are better than
their foreign competitors and independent media sources agree. Did you
know GM offers more models than any other automotive manufacturer/OEM that
get 30 MPG or better? Did you know that the Chevy Malibu has better fuel
economy than the Toyota Camry and Accord? Same goes for the Chevy
Silverado vs Toyota Tundra. Did you know that GM will be the first OEM to
offer a 100 mile per gallon production vehicle (Chevrolet Volt) in calendar year 2010 (less than 2 years away)? Did you know GM currently has over 100 fuel cell vehicle being tested/evaluated on public roads by our elected officials? One last tidbit when it comes to fuel economy and technology, did you know that the hybrid SUVS and pickups from GM save more fuel
(gallons) per year than a Toyota Prius? GM is committed to reducing our
dependency on foreign oil. Having personally seen the cars GM will be introducing over the next 5 years, I can tell you they will be significantly better than the competition. They will provide class leading fuel economy and quality w/ gorgeous styling (something the foreign
competition does not offer). Without your support and government
assistance, sadly, you will not be able buy these game changing cars.

I have also heard comments that suggest the impact would only be felt in
Michigan. Did you realize that 1 in 10 jobs are tied to the automotive
industry? Furthermore, did you know that Lear Corporation in Iowa City
employs over 800 people (produces interior parts for Buick Lucerne and
Cadillac DTS)? We all know the importance of E85 to the farming community
but were you aware that neither Honda or Toyota offer a single vehicle that can use E85. Without government assistance the US automotive industry will collapse, significantly impacting the demand for E85 production and the farming community.

Many people have the notion that GM has an inefficient work force. Did
you realize that GM employs 60,000 fewer employees than Toyota but has
consistently sold more vehicles . GM also signed a historic labor and
health care agreement w/ the UAW which takes effect in January of 2010.
This agreement will enable GM to compete w/ the Asian Transplants (Toyota, Honda, etc) from a labor cost perspective.

GM is not the inefficient , non-innovator, poor quality vehicle manufacturer it is perceived to be. There is a lot of false/out of date information and/or perceptions regarding the US automotive industry. Please visit gmfactsandfiction.com to express your support of GM and the US automotive industry by contacting your congressman. Click on "I am a concerned American". Fill in your address and name and a form email will
automatically be sent to your congressman. It is that simple! I
sincerely appreciate the time and consideration you have given to the facts about GM. Please share these facts with your friends and family by forwarding this email.

Thanks,
Justin

gmfactsandfiction.com/
---

---

E85 isn't good for the environment. You must burn more of it than gas to get to the same place whether it's the store down the street or a trip on vacation. Less efficient, less hp/fuel burned & a drain on taxpayers in subsidies as well as higher food costs. The idea of E85 is a farce.
Electric isn't the answer either if fuel useage is looked at in the WHOLE PICTURE (at least it isn't everything claimed).
Hydrogen....if done right & a nationwide network setup is quite viable.

At least at this time, it takes more energy to create hydrogen for fuel than any other transportation scheme.

Its only up end is no carbon to offend Gore

Modxr6- i agree with you. about e85 and electricity... at this point. There just isn't the battery technology available to make electric cars work.

You guys see this:

Auto CEO's fly seperate private jets to beg washington for taxpayers money!

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/19/aut...ets/index.html

they really need to scrap the unions!! you don't see toyota w/ the high labor cost problems, and i'm sorry, why is a worker at gm making 40+$ an hour to put screws in door panels!! kick the unions out, or go bankrupt and renegotiate!! i think unions were great in the past when workers needed protection, but now, they are a dinasaur that slows production and costs a fortune! if a company can't be successful, go out of business!! look at the last camaro, they priced the car so high they priced it out of its buyers reach, and they wonder why they didn't sell more

Quote:

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Originally Posted by merccoop

Modxr6- i agree with you. about e85 and electricity... at this point. There just isn't the battery technology available to make electric cars work.

You guys see this:

Auto CEO's fly seperate private jets to beg washington for taxpayers money!

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/19/aut...ets/index.html

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Yes but I was getting at the energy required to charge a substantial amout of vehicles. Just cause you plug it into the wall don't mean it's free & appears out of thin air.

Quote:

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At least at this time, it takes more energy to create hydrogen for fuel than any other transportation scheme.

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I agree, but it will be (notice I said will be) the most efficient (mpg/energy used) fuel of the future. Oh & I work in the oil & gas industry but I'm smart enough to look ahead to what's in store for the future. But gasoline & diesel will be around for a long time as they are the most efficient (cost in dollars/hp produced) to move vehicles.
Nuclear is still what will power industry the most efficient.

I have not read all 15 pages of this thread, but i saw the news this AM where the top CEO's of GM & Ford Flew to DC on their private planes, at a cost of 5 to 10 k each, to beg the gov. for billions of dollars to "save" their company's! Neither wanted to comment on their private jets, or the fact that they continue to be grossly compensated for running their companies to the bottom of the river. If they cared, shouldn't they be willing to take huge personal hits on their salary's and benny packages?
It's just about time to revert back to "By the people, For the people"! Can't wait till someone looses it and offs these greedy D-bags who have created this horrible financial climate!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BRAVEHEART

If they cared, shouldn't they be willing to take huge personal hits on their salary's and benny packages?

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I saw part of the meeting and they were asked if they would reduce their compensation by the chairman of the meeting. I missed part of it but one said yes he was willing to reduce his by 50% next was the Ford guy and he said he was fine where he was at currently. Needless to say I did a WOW you certainly want to lead by example. Guy was being paid 8.5 million for a salary guess he couldn't survive on 4.25 mill.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrcrsr

they really need to scrap the unions!! you don't see toyota w/ the high labor cost problems, and i'm sorry, why is a worker at gm making 40+$ an hour to put screws in door panels!!

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Source please. Skilled labor (Electricians, Pipefitters, Automation Techs) are typically not making $40/hr union wage. I find it hard to believe a standard assembly line worker is....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hydrophobic guy

I saw part of the meeting and they were asked if they would reduce their compensation by the chairman of the meeting. I missed part of it but one said yes he was willing to reduce his by 50% next was the Ford guy and he said he was fine where he was at currently. Needless to say I did a WOW you certainly want to lead by example. Guy was being paid 8.5 million for a salary guess he couldn't survive on 4.25 mill.

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I think you mis heard, I think he was willing to go to 50%...I know they said on the radio that one of them was willing to do no salary for a year or something (I could have misheard also)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hydrophobic guy

next was the Ford guy and he said he was fine where he was at currently ... being paid 8.5 million

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In a job interview where the company was downsizing in a pinch if they interviewed someone and he said he'd only work for top pay ... the HR interviewer would just say .... "Next!" ... that would be the end of it, they wouldn't even make the second round ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MODXR6

E85 isn't good for the environment. You must burn more of it than gas to get to the same place whether it's the store down the street or a trip on vacation. Less efficient, less hp/fuel burned & a drain on taxpayers in subsidies as well as higher food costs. The idea of E85 is a farce.

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I see we have another one that believes every old wives tale he hears about ethanol :rolleyes: Is thinking and research that hard to do? :nonod:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pro300x24LD

Source please. Skilled labor (Electricians, Pipefitters, Automation Techs) are typically not making $40/hr union wage. I find it hard to believe a standard assembly line worker is....

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I'd be willing to bet if you took their yearly earnings and broke it down to a 40 hour work week...$40/hr is right on.

I worked as a temp in a Mopar parts depot and I was makeing damn near $20 an hour once you figured in COL, OT and shift diff. Guys that had been there for 10-15-20 years were making $80+ a year. Sad part was that we were right next door to a Publix distribution center (same job, different product) and the guys on the floor were making $10/hr. :rolleyes:

During the holidays was the worst (or best if you're an employee) Two weeks off, but if you work during the time off...it's double time PLUS your vacation time paid (do the math... triple time!)

I worked there for 3 months and it was long enough to see all the union :icon_bs:. Every night, every shift, it was a minimum of an hour of OT. Guess what... If I didn't want to work that extra hour and try and pick up someone elses slack, I got repremanded. :rolleyes: :icon_bs:

Oh yeah, other than management, most of my co-workers on the floor had no higher than a high school education. And good luck getting a full-time gig if you didn't have family or a real close connection.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1BadAction

I see we have another one that believes every old wives tale he hears about ethanol :rolleyes: Is thinking and research that hard to do? :nonod:

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Not really sure where you're going with this? Ethanol is about 75% as efficient as gas when it comes to fuel mileage. Suger and corn has a very high acreage to gallon yield. However, the algae technology definitely looks interesting. :thumbsup:

gm still has the coin to build a plant in st petersburg, russia, though and take more jobs from our country! why not let the mexicans and russians bail them out, it seems like that mexico is where alot of the jobs went to increase their profit! is it because the unions drove gm, ford and chrysler away? seems like toyota, vw, etc are building union free plants here though?

Ziemer, of course... on an engine that is designed and mainly intended for gasoline. The game changes when one is built for ethyl, and a turbo'd car on E85 is pure insanity. sugar and corn are both temporary sources, the real good yields come from other non-edible grasses.

anyhow, I'm done with the E subject(not directing this toward anyone in particular), tired of trying to post facts when people could care less and would rather believe what some propaganda site tells them.

Lead by example?? This is how its done. Old news but this was during the tech bubble burst.

The head of Cisco Systems (NSDQ:CSCO) Inc. and other top Cisco executives will not receive bonuses for 2001 because the networking giant fell short of its financial targets, the company said Monday.
"Because of the economic environment and our company performance, our executives did not receive compensation for this fiscal year," a company spokeswoman told Reuters.

Cisco has suffered amid a global economic slowdown and cut backs in spending by telecommunications firms that had overinvested.

Chief Executive John Chambers already had said he would cut his salary to $1 a year. He received a salary of $268,131 for the pay period up until that announcement was made in April, the spokeswoman said.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1BadAction

I see we have another one that believes every old wives tale he hears about ethanol :rolleyes: Is thinking and research that hard to do? :nonod:

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No it isn't hard to do at all. Ain't a wives tale, just ranks a little behind global warming. That's the whole dam reason for the (never will be economical) ethanol industry to be created. Yeah right

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hydrophobic guy

I saw part of the meeting and they were asked if they would reduce their compensation by the chairman of the meeting. I missed part of it but one said yes he was willing to reduce his by 50% next was the Ford guy and he said he was fine where he was at currently. Needless to say I did a WOW you certainly want to lead by example. Guy was being paid 8.5 million for a salary guess he couldn't survive on 4.25 mill.

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Lee Iacocca set the example in 1978, when he was chairman of Chrysler. Realizing the automaker was in bad financial shape, Iacocca fired executives and pushed the United Auto Workers to accept salary and benefit cuts. In an effort to lead by example, Iacocca lowered his own salary to $1 a year. Five years later, with a helping hand from the government, the company was restored to financial health.

None of the union concessions kick in till 2010. The concessions need to start NOW!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mark75H

At least at this time, it takes more energy to create hydrogen for fuel than any other transportation scheme.

Its only up end is no carbon to offend Gore

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The great thing about Hydrogen is that it can be made during off-peak hours using electrolysis at Nuclear plants, just like they do on nuke subs to get oxygen.
It is still dangerous to store at high pressures.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pro300x24LD

Source please. Skilled labor (Electricians, Pipefitters, Automation Techs) are typically not making $40/hr union wage. I find it hard to believe a standard assembly line worker is....


I think you mis heard, I think he was willing to go to 50%...I know they said on the radio that one of them was willing to do no salary for a year or something (I could have misheard also)

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Hydrophobic you are correct, I was the one who misheard the radio station only played a small clip, after hearing/seeing the whole discussion I can't believe the arrogance of these fools.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pro300x24LD

Hydrophobic you are correct, I was the one who misheard the radio station only played a small clip, after hearing/seeing the whole discussion I can't believe the arrogance of these fools.

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Pretty friggin amazing HUH!
And they were all asked if they flew coach YAH, RIGHT!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hydrophobic guy

Pretty friggin amazing HUH!
And they were all asked if they flew coach YAH, RIGHT!!!

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Yeah, it really sucks, the people that need this bail out are me, and the rest of the working middle class in this state specifically as well as across the nation....yet because these douchebags can not swallow their own cocks for a minute and take a measly 4 million dollar pay cut for a year everyone feels no sympathy for them...

From the big wheels down to the common worker!

That union leader that made a big stink by saying that they wouldn't give an inch was soooo-stupid!!!!! If that's what he though he never should have stated so, talk about a dumb leader!

And the CEOs are just about demanding to go chapter 7 to void the union contracts, smart move on their part by playing the "Just Give Us The $" bit in order to make sure their's no bailout!

The union leadership screwed their workers on this one! I support the unions but their leadership is no different then our currupt politictians, they are in it just for their own gains!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hydrophobic guy

Pretty friggin amazing HUH!
And they were all asked if they flew coach YAH, RIGHT!!!

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I'm I the only one this just PO'd? I don't get it. Here the US government/economy is in the worst shape it has been only a couple times in its history...is all of congress flying coach and the President first class???? To what, save a nickel relatively? GM is a global company and the CEO is paid a lot, does anyone (any shareholder) think he should be sitting at an airport gate for an hour to fly to China? Get real there is not enough minutes in a day to do those jobs. They just trying to fix what management did long ago, times changed and it put them in a hole. What about congress who is itching to take the next TWO MONTHS OFF when everything is going to....in a handbag? What American gets the next two months off? Do you? They only work a few months a year anyway and look what they have to show for it. Congressional policy has a direct effect on the overhead of every company in the US, the financial mess they made and allowed to happen, the poor real economy they ran this country on for the last near decade. Running your economy on housing is just plain stupid, housing makes no money companies do. What a bunch of arrogant idiots we have in government, how the leaders of the largest manufacturing companies in the country travel has nothing to do with millions of AMERICAN JOBS and INVESTMENT that will be LOST if a solution is not found for this problem. IMO those CEOs should have said so and told congress to get lost. Instead the big "news" story is what plane they rode on; just congress and their typical wanting of camera time while they do nothing about the issue! Whole country is a mess and nothing changes in DC!!
Pure :icon_bs: :nonod: If the idiots in government had any spine at all most of them would resign immediately and apologize for their poor performance...instead they badmouth somebody who is working hard to get things on track while they suck on the keg and chat with the hookers. Can anyone here prove to me those three CEOs are not some of the most capable in the world? Yeah maybe they are not perfect, but look what they have to work with. The issue is jobs for the people so they can afford a new boat/whatever, seems the news media forgot that in about two seconds. Those manufacturing jobs pay a lot more that service ones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sho305

The issue is jobs for the people so they can afford a new boat/whatever, seems the news media forgot that in about two seconds. Those manufacturing jobs pay a lot more that service ones.

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Huh? Manufacturing jobs should pay more than 'regular' work? ... that kind of thinking is part of the problem. High paying jobs for the sake of jobs is just another version of welfare; jobs have to have value to the economy from the product or service demand side. People have to both want the product or service and be able to purchase it.

How many people have $20,000 or $40,000 sitting around to buy a new car? ... 'cause you ain't going to see dealer or bank financing anytime soon.

Mike Hukk"only asked what's up with this change thang , what are the blue dog dems gonna' do know , the ones that vote conservative , maybe in 2 yrs. we'll know.

I only ask that we give some long hard thought to our way of life in the next few months.

As for me i'm shopping for an SK or i've got a mas 49/56 on the hook?

Any ways as i've heard keep your powder dry...
RichardKCMo

This would still be catastrophic unemployment, but it would not be the end.
Sam's right on in this....
RichardKCMo

We had a supplier go under this summer that supplied parts to around 70% of the cars built in North America. I always thought they could never go broke because they'd shut most of the industry down, transplants included. Fortunately the trouble was before the crash, and everyone got their tools out in an orderly way. We are all paying more for our parts at the new suppliers, so maybe the original guys should have been charging more.

There must be a few other small companies like that, who no one has heard of. This risk is that one of the Detroit 3 goes down, the little company goes chapter 7, and the whole industry stops for a while.

The risk seems real to me. But the big cheeses did a lousy sell job in Washington this week. Where's Iacocca's leadership and salesmanship?

I'm done with the E subject(not directing this toward anyone in particular), tired of trying to post facts when people could care less and would rather believe what some propaganda site tells them.
__________________
Honesty , what i hear here, makes 1 think highschool is what yer talking to, hell i went through this 6 times with my own , and am now working on 13 grandkids, oh gosh, takes a lot more alkie to get the job done.

Don't get me wrong i live in KC Mo., so taxes are agreeable, doesn't make it right though. Of course that's what pres. elect said.

So i guess it's duck and cover time agin....

RichardKCMo