User Tag List

Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 104

Thread: Mad EFI mid

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    HUDSON, FLORIDA
    Posts
    1,527
    Thanks (Given)
    427
    Thanks (Received)
    63
    Likes (Given)
    433
    Likes (Received)
    450
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    When m a d said the power head will pull it into alignment, i just shook my head, no way. i dont think a dial indicator is the right instrument to use, reasons being, you can move the drive shaft several thousands by hand in all directions because of the distance from the lower unit top bearing. spline alignment and a bent driveshaft are separate issues. wish i had seem this thread sooner, i gotta pull it apart now.

  2. Likes 25two.stroke liked this post
  3. #17
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    New Buffalo, MI / Melbourne, FL
    Posts
    94
    Thanks (Given)
    1
    Thanks (Received)
    3
    Likes (Given)
    3
    Likes (Received)
    26
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KIRCHNER View Post
    When m a d said the power head will pull it into alignment, i just shook my head, no way. i dont think a dial indicator is the right instrument to use, reasons being, you can move the drive shaft several thousands by hand in all directions because of the distance from the lower unit top bearing. spline alignment and a bent driveshaft are separate issues. wish i had seem this thread sooner, i gotta pull it apart now.
    Wheres that engineer who’s on the Merc V6 history thread lol! I think they mentioned the OMC shafts breaking in his thread. Have to reread that part of it and what he did in it to fix the issue with merc v6. But I think your right there’s nothing holding that shaft at the upper end until you mate it in the power head even then there has to be an allowance for a little play. That is why I was saying you would have to mimic the powerhead splines and the studs to be able to bolt it all together tight with the ability to measure the top of the driveshaft and then now that I think of it some way to mearsure the middle and bottom parts of the shaft at the same time as it spins.

  4. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    1,491
    Thanks (Given)
    13
    Thanks (Received)
    129
    Likes (Given)
    70
    Likes (Received)
    626
    Mentioned
    35 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Mid Layout & Check

    Quote Originally Posted by 2thelake View Post
    Can you repost how would you check the midsection for alignment?

    do you bolt up mid and lower and take powerhead off and measure like you did from the top then put the power head on and take the lower unit off and then hold an uninstalled drive shaft in the powerheard while you measure from the bottom with the lower unit off to compare the differences in distance from the outside of the hole to the shaft?
    Enuf about using carpenters squares, straight edges, vernier gauges, plumb bobs and so on. Put the damn mid on a machined layout table and see if the fly cut ends are parallel to each other by a digital scan. Flatness would be a good start (daylight and 0.005 feeler gauges). Doesn't matter what the height dimension is. It will wash with the driveshaft spline end float. If the ends are canted, fly cut the ends just like you would do for an engine head. If you have the "meat" (edge margin) open up the engine stud bores to a maximum ID to "float" the engine. Make sure your studs are not chewed or galled and at MMC (Maximum material condition). Fly cutting the ends should make the engine and gearcase surfaces truly parallel to each other. Oh, and another thing, all these fasteners should be retorqued at least every 10 hours or so. Racers don't have this problem because they are constantly pulling everything apart and reassembling.

  5. Thanks 2thelake thanked for this post
    Likes 25two.stroke liked this post
  6. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Palm City Fla
    Posts
    7,194
    Thanks (Given)
    0
    Thanks (Received)
    828
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    6486
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Welp, the last thing I do after cuttin, sypherin, tackin, wigglin, weldin, cursin, clippin an callin it ready to mud n paint ... is give it the clink~clunk test.

    I have a hard time holdin the phone and runnin the shaft back n forth .. but ya get the idea ....


  7. Likes LakeFever, TEXAS20225, stoker2001 liked this post
  8. #20
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    New Buffalo, MI / Melbourne, FL
    Posts
    94
    Thanks (Given)
    1
    Thanks (Received)
    3
    Likes (Given)
    3
    Likes (Received)
    26
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaz View Post
    Welp, the last thing I do after cuttin, sypherin, tackin, wigglin, weldin, cursin, clippin an callin it ready to mud n paint ... is give it the clink~clunk test.

    I have a hard time holdin the phone and runnin the shaft back n forth .. but ya get the idea ....

    That’s definitely straight right there! Thanks Chaz!

  9. Likes 25two.stroke, stoker2001 liked this post
  10. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    MIAMI FLORIDA
    Posts
    2,290
    Thanks (Given)
    63
    Thanks (Received)
    124
    Likes (Given)
    358
    Likes (Received)
    759
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The mid needs to be put in a mill with a dial indicator in the collet to see if the top and bottom surfaces are parallel and go from there... I have a plate made for omcs that has the powerhead bolt pattern and a hole for the drive shaft to just fit thru I have used it many times checking engines that have broken mutiple drive shafts. Looks good as always Chaz

  11. Likes stoker2001 liked this post
  12. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Floating around
    Posts
    3,927
    Thanks (Given)
    464
    Thanks (Received)
    418
    Likes (Given)
    3353
    Likes (Received)
    2445
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Could set the mid on a piece of level glass elevated enough to put a spot line laser under the glass and broadcast the laser up through the center of the hole and measure the difference with calipers. If you cant find center make a bushing and center drill it to 1/16” or so. Just enough for the laser to shine through. Check for parallel surfaces too while your at it. I cant think of any other way to measure it although Chaz method is undisputedly excellent.
    Hydrostream dreamin

  13. Likes stoker2001 liked this post
  14. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Palm City Fla
    Posts
    7,194
    Thanks (Given)
    0
    Thanks (Received)
    828
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    6486
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by H2OPERF View Post
    The mid needs to be put in a mill with a dial indicator in the collet to see if the top and bottom surfaces are parallel and go from there... I have a plate made for omcs that has the powerhead bolt pattern and a hole for the drive shaft to just fit thru I have used it many times checking engines that have broken mutiple drive shafts. Looks good as always Chaz
    I have a friend who has made the same thing , the same way for the last 20 years or so , tell me I will never be rich ... because I just can't leave "well enough alone" .

    I rekkon he's right, but usually before I'm half done with a project, I've already deemed it inadequate and redesigned it in my head over and over ....

    Building mids .. either cast factory stuff .. or the stick-mids for Gordon ... can sometimes be tough. A small tack can pull the parts over ... and into a bind. Sometimes I just have to walk away for a day to regain my sanity ... well what little I have left ..

    Plates, bars, bushings, bosses, transfer dowels ... and in the end, your right ... tramming front to back ... left to right produces an exact number ...



    "WARNING" I was so happy I said "biotch" in this vid ... "WARNING"



  15. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    1,491
    Thanks (Given)
    13
    Thanks (Received)
    129
    Likes (Given)
    70
    Likes (Received)
    626
    Mentioned
    35 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Shrink Factor

    Quote Originally Posted by WaterZebra View Post
    Take a look at your top photo. The lug profiles (thickness) are different from "core shift" at the foundry. Not a big deal for MAD EFI based on numbers cast but would be unacceptable for Mercury Marine. Matching engine block stud bores to gearcase bolt patterns while keeping the driveshaft axis coaxial to prevent runout side load failures can be tricky. Mercury Marine HiPerf knows this. It would be interesting to see MAD EFI's "jig" for putting in the second set of bores and how the top and bottom end plane surfaces are kept co-planer and to what tolerance? Can the adapter plate be reworked to provide a bigger clearance bore for the driveshaft? Is there evidence of "printing" on the driveshaft O/D?
    I forgot one other factor to add to this dimensional salad. Aluminum shrinks 1/4 inch per foot when cooling from molten state. Carbon and stainless steel shrinks about 3/16 inch per foot. This could be another factor which is "moving" the boss dimensions. Photos indicate that the mid casting was not adjusted for "best fit" prior to machining.

  16. Likes 25two.stroke, stoker2001 liked this post
  17. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Palm City Fla
    Posts
    7,194
    Thanks (Given)
    0
    Thanks (Received)
    828
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    6486
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Todd would never say let the powerhead pull the driveshaft straight .. he knows better.

    As far as shrinkage goes .. I get a bit of that when it's cold .. As far as the cans go, they are cast in one state and machined in another, so I'm sure they have enough time to cool off. Temp is a valid point though. We do outboard blocks with zero deck. Car blocks (alum block - steel sleeve) get done with the sleeves proud by .005-.006 thou to allow for growth.

    Lets keep in mind that there have been hundreds of these cans done , with only a few driveshaft problems. And those have been traced back to multiple other issues.
    When these cans are machined, they are surfaced on both top and bottom. Then as stated, the lower yoke holes. From there , a jig is bolted up that captures top and bottom that has holes for the drill + tap pattern. Those three positions are always the same. Keep in mind these are castings, not billet parts .. so like car blocks look to be offset or core shifted ... these can look to be drilled out of square or rotated, but all the holes line up.
    In reality, it's a kit. It's up to the builder to check for casting flash in the driveshaft tunnel. To see how well the hole in the adapter plate is aligned. Etc.

    I have a couple ideas (can't sleep) I'll take pictures .. but now I gotta run thru the rain locker.. gotta go get a physical to see if I'm healthy enough to be put under next week for my shoulder opp. Pppfftttt .... they should have seen me in my drinkin days ..

  18. Likes LakeFever, rgsauger liked this post
  19. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Pinole, Ca
    Posts
    2,261
    Thanks (Given)
    36
    Thanks (Received)
    283
    Likes (Given)
    924
    Likes (Received)
    867
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaz View Post
    Todd would never say let the powerhead pull the driveshaft straight .. he knows better.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Capture.JPG 
Views:	187 
Size:	40.6 KB 
ID:	508550

    I woulda hoped, but those were his words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaz View Post
    Lets keep in mind that there have been hundreds of these cans done , with only a few driveshaft problems. And those have been traced back to multiple other issues.
    When these cans are machined, they are surfaced on both top and bottom. Then as stated, the lower yoke holes. From there , a jig is bolted up that captures top and bottom that has holes for the drill + tap pattern. Those three positions are always the same. Keep in mind these are castings, not billet parts .. so like car blocks look to be offset or core shifted ... these can look to be drilled out of square or rotated, but all the holes line up.
    In reality, it's a kit. It's up to the builder to check for casting flash in the driveshaft tunnel. To see how well the hole in the adapter plate is aligned. Etc.
    Yeah I figure if this is one of 500 or 1000 to have a problem then its still damn good. I know that core shift occurs in casting and how the bolt holes are aligned relative to the casting doesn't matter, its just cosmetic. What really matters is that the lower bolt pattern is aligned with the powerhead bolt pattern. This one is not. And if he expects the builder to correct a 0.009" misalignment in his cnc work then that is crazy. 0.001 or 0.002 ... maybe. But I bet you wouldn't build a mid that binds when you put the powerhead splines down to the lower, and then tell your customer its fine and you see nothing wrong.

  20. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    37,827
    Thanks (Given)
    64
    Thanks (Received)
    1667
    Likes (Given)
    337
    Likes (Received)
    19200
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    ...wondering if he has another mid he could ship you?...

  21. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Pinole, Ca
    Posts
    2,261
    Thanks (Given)
    36
    Thanks (Received)
    283
    Likes (Given)
    924
    Likes (Received)
    867
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by FUJIMO View Post
    ...wondering if he has another mid he could ship you?...
    I woulda loved that. Its not like I said he was wrong or nothing in the beginning. I just didn't get it. I did everything he said to do to just verify there was an issue and he says there's nothing wrong. So I hope he is right. I hope now that I put it all back together with a welded shaft then it will last. But I have a hard time believing it. Only time will tell. And I hope if something breaks again he mans up like I would and says yeah send it back and HE can look at it. I bet if he put it back in his jig and told the cnc to cut the top bolt pattern it would start cutting in different places that the holes are now. I think its as simple as the cnc made a mistake but Todd said quote "That would be impossible" for the cnc to make an error.

  22. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    aalsmeer
    Posts
    1,462
    Thanks (Given)
    0
    Thanks (Received)
    163
    Likes (Given)
    12
    Likes (Received)
    258
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    can you measure the offsett on your block your crankshaft socket compared to the holes!?
    i am thinking the surface from the top of the can and the gearcase mating area are not completly paralel
    possible solution would be install the mid plate as in the picture and redeck the gearcase mating area
    now the gearcase mating area and the top of the midplate should be paralel
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails mad_efi_mid_offsett.png  

  23. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Pinole, Ca
    Posts
    2,261
    Thanks (Given)
    36
    Thanks (Received)
    283
    Likes (Given)
    924
    Likes (Received)
    867
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by PanRonnie View Post
    can you measure the offsett on your block your crankshaft socket compared to the holes!?
    i am thinking the surface from the top of the can and the gearcase mating area are not completly paralel
    possible solution would be install the mid plate as in the picture and redeck the gearcase mating area
    now the gearcase mating area and the top of the midplate should be paralel
    On the powerhead side the crank is perfectly centered between the studs. The red line in your drawing shows that the CL of the D.S. is 0.009" out of center for a total of 0.018 difference of measurement from the driveshaft CL to the port stud hole and to the starboard stud hole. Yes, you are right, this could be due to the top and bottom surfaces of the midsection not being parallel or a shift in the alignment of the bolt holes. I measured the adapter plate itself to verify it is still square and it is. I got the engine all assembled now and built exactly how Todd said to do it. First trial run will be this Friday.

Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Aeromarine Research