Hot Singles ! - Pictures

[willabee]

..... i may have been misunderstood.
All i meant was, Renato was the foremost innovator of his time and was also in the unique position of being designer, tester , owner, driver, and every boat was his until it was signed off to the customer. He "TWEAKED" the design configuration of virtually every boat that was ever made. I do not believe the Mercury quality control was up to the task of checking if every boat ordered was delivered to spec, and anyway, what would you have done about it .....If Mercury were happy with the situation ,how come Velden and Seebold started manufacturing.

Well, what you meant was a far cry from what you said, and I quote....."when Renato made another boat, he always altered it a little, some of the time it worked, most of the time it didn't, so he shipped those boats to the U.S." I took that statement to mean that he sent his "mistakes" to Merc, and I don't agree that that is an accurate statement.

However, I do agree with what you say you meant to say (did you understand what I just said) except for the shot about Merc quality control..... it wasn't too hard to check to see if the boat arriving was as ordered. Also, I never tried to say that Merc was completely happy about the arrangement, I only implied that they were not unhappy with the quality of the boats.

You know, when someone offers to take all of the boats you can produce, it's not to difficult to figure out that they don't want their competition to get a hold of them. Even though there is some sort of agreement in place, it has to be easy for the boat builder to become a little more demanding when he is the only game in town. There were a number of reasons that Merc tried to build their own boat and that Seebold and van der Velden got into building them.....what we're talking about here is just a small piece of the puzzle.

[Mark75H]

I never read or heard anything about quality issues either. What I heard at the time was that Merc was paying for 2 boats at a time from Renato. One would be Renato's and the other would be Bill's. Agreeing with what others have said, Renato was constantly evolving the designs, rarely would he build 2 truely identical boats. Often he built 2 boats that were both a jump ahead of both his previous designs and the competition. Just the same, both boats would not have identical performance, and Renato rigged and tested them to learn which was the faster of the 2 ... if both were equal it didn't matter which one he shipped out to America; but if one was faster he kept that one and had an edge over Bill when they were in the same race.

Come to think of it, wasn't Renato always implying or saying that Merc was doing this to him with motors? Maybe it was his revenge for getting what he thought were the second string motors. It would complete a puzzle where all the pieces interlock.

[jackie wilson]

look Willa I apologised , what do ya want, the crawl !!!!!!!!! But i thought you might have UNDERSTOOD what i was trying to say, which i'm sure did after all that huffing and puffing.
The Italian craftwork could not be faulted, but just tell me honestly Willa . did you ever check that the c of g was the same on each boat you checked in to the factory JUST GUESSING ???????
The idea that you didn't want the competition to get hold of any boats is almost laughable in it's naivety.
Scotti was in spitting distance and building boats from the other side of the lake. Him and Renato were cousins. Every time one of them made a move the other was out there with the bins.
There's an old italian saying ' HE RUNS WITH THE HARE AND HUNTS WITH THE HOUNDS" what more can i say

[jackie wilson]

Mark 75H, Renato always was of the opinion Billy got the best gear. Will see him down at Naples next Wednesday week so i will ask him about the boatbuilding.

[willabee]

look Willa I apologised ..... But i thought you might have UNDERSTOOD what i was trying to say, ...... did you ever check that the c of g was the same on each boat you checked in to the factory JUST GUESSING ???????
The idea that you didn't want the competition to get hold of any boats is almost laughable in it's naivety.
Scotti was in spitting distance and building boats from the other side of the lake. Him and Renato were cousins. Every time one of them made a move the other was out there with the bins.
There's an old italian saying ' HE RUNS WITH THE HARE AND HUNTS WITH THE HOUNDS" what more can i say

I've got to come back at you one piece at a time.....You didn't apologize, you whimpered that you have been misunderstood..... I am not going to try to guess what you are trying to say when I read your babble, that would surely get me into even more trouble......We installed the engine and carefully put the boat in the water, if it floated, the c/g was right on.....They were cousins, but also were rivals and their boats didn't look anything like each other, so when it comes to the idea that they shared ideas, another old Italian saying comes to mind.....FAT'A CHANCE'A .

Just got off the phone with Mr. T (Tom Stickle).....he is going to be with Seebold the 1st of Feb and said he will ask about this stuff. He said that he will post Billy's comments when he gets back home.

[willabee]

What I heard at the time was that Merc was paying for 2 boats at a time from Renato. One would be Renato's and the other would be Bill's. ... if both were equal it didn't matter which one he shipped out to America; but if one was faster he kept that one and had an edge over Bill when they were in the same race.....Come to think of it, wasn't Renato always implying or saying that Merc was doing this to him with motors?

Not trying to argue because I don't know the answer. It just seems to me that this thing would have been a logistical nightmare. If he is building a new set of boats for a race in the States that he is going to run in, he will keep the best of the lot for himself, just like he did for races in Europe.....who wouldn't. If he is not going to participate in the upcoming U.S. races, he is just building boats for the other four guys to the best of his ability.....someone else had to decide who got what.

The engine thing is a little different. As I understand it, Hering tested all of the powerheads and props, then gave them a rating. He and Renato were very close and I would guess that Renato expected that Bobby would see the they received the best two of each. If any of this is accurate, Seebold would be receiving no better than the third best boat and motor when racing in Europe and maybe second best when racing here and Renato wasn't running.

If he does comment, it will be interesting to see what Billy has to say about this.

[T2x]

Not trying to argue because I don't know the answer. It just seems to me that this thing would have been a logistical nightmare. If he is building a new set of boats for a race in the States that he is going to run in, he will keep the best of the lot for himself, just like he did for races in Europe.....who wouldn't. If he is not going to participate in the upcoming U.S. races, he is just building boats for the other four guys to the best of his ability.....someone else had to decide who got what.

The engine thing is a little different. As I understand it, Hering tested all of the powerheads and props, then gave them a rating. He and Renato were very close and I would guess that Renato expected that Bobby would see the they received the best two of each. If any of this is accurate, Seebold would be receiving no better than the third best boat and motor when racing in Europe and maybe second best when racing here and Renato wasn't running.

If he does comment, it will be interesting to see what Billy has to say about this.

As I recall Hering was a full time employee at Oshkosh, while Billy visited. He was still running bhis dealership and later his boat building company in St. Louis, so Bobby definitely had a closer handle on motors.....and probably boats as well since the hulls all came to Wisconsin first.

Later on when Billy was building the team boats that worm turned 180 degrees. In fact aside from the "Old Blue" hulls and a few Paris boats, how many Molinaris did Bill actually run? He was running a Jones back in the dual engine days, and he started Seebold hulls while full tunnels (pre picklefork) were still in vogue. I got a Big Paris Molinari from him (black and yellow) and come to think of it, it was such a slug I took it back a few days later.



T2x

[jackie wilson]

I've got to come back at you one piece at a time.....You didn't apologize, you whimpered that you have been misunderstood..... I am not going to try to guess what you are trying to say when I read your babble, that would surely get me into even more trouble......We installed the engine and carefully put the boat in the water, if it floated, the c/g was right on.....They were cousins, but also were rivals and their boats didn't look anything like each other, so when it comes to the idea that they shared ideas, another old Italian saying comes to mind.....FAT'A CHANCE'A .

Just got off the phone with Mr. T (Tom Stickle).....he is going to be with Seebold the 1st of Feb and said he will ask about this stuff. He said that he will post Billy's comments when he gets back home.

Hey Willa, one piece at a time is fine, did apologise but don't do whimper, do do babble that troubles the colonials, and umbonated pedagogs.
Thats exactly what i meant by quality control, stick a motor on it , if it floats ,it's a pass. and ------DUH------- c of g. Thats where set up starts, or did i do it wrong all those years?????

[T2x]

Peterse90's list updated

Cascadden's G/M unknown
Reg Hilman's 17ft Molinari still in Canada actually a '67 boat
Tom Wood's Mod 50 Molinari in transit between Ala. & ?
Tom Wood's Mod U picklefork unknown
Mark Rotharmel's Mod U picklefork still in Canada obviously
Spencer Dunn's Mod U Velden unknown
Spencer Dunn's Pinel Laydown Pinel Mod U destroyed
2) Pinel full nosed look-alikes ( Molinari's ) unknown
3) Pinel SE/Mod 50 pickleforks unknown

Barry Taylor's 16ft Sprint aka S. Dunn's/M. Rotharmel's SJ unknown
Spencer Dunn's 17ft Marthon unknown/may have gone to Lee Davies
Spencer Dunn's picklefork destroyed
Dick Summerfeldt's 21 twin South Africa
Oley Berkis 18ft still in Canada
Oley Berkis 17ft Marathon unknown
Oley Berkis 18ft picklefork see T2X
Oley Berkis 17ft picklefork (may have been Dunn's) destroyed or unknown
Mark Rotharmel's 17ft picklefork unknown
Summerfeldt's Milemaster early fulldeck unknown later picklefork went to Fred Finchim SJ then unknown

Hope this helps
Zonkercraft

Further updates to the above:

Oley's 18 footer.... I sold it to a guy in Puerto Rico and it raced for quite some time down there. (See Below and in following post)

Fred Fincham's Miles- I believe was a Canadian made copy

Add Oley's Twistercraft which I swapped him for the 18' Molinari.

My 17 Pickle Fork sprint Molinari..... lost in a fire.

My Miles (ex Fred Bradshaw) gave back to Mercury Oshkosh

T2x

[T2x]

Final flight in Puerto Rico

[peterse90]

Peterse90's list updated

Cascadden's G/M unknown
Reg Hilman's 17ft Molinari still in Canada actually a '67 boat
Tom Wood's Mod 50 Molinari in transit between Ala. & ?
Tom Wood's Mod U picklefork unknown
Mark Rotharmel's Mod U picklefork still in Canada obviously
Spencer Dunn's Mod U Velden unknown
Spencer Dunn's Pinel Laydown Pinel Mod U destroyed
2) Pinel full nosed look-alikes ( Molinari's ) unknown
3) Pinel SE/Mod 50 pickleforks unknown

Barry Taylor's 16ft Sprint aka S. Dunn's/M. Rotharmel's SJ unknown
Spencer Dunn's 17ft Marthon unknown/may have gone to Lee Davies
Spencer Dunn's picklefork destroyed
Dick Summerfeldt's 21 twin South Africa
Oley Berkis 18ft still in Canada
Oley Berkis 17ft Marathon unknown
Oley Berkis 18ft picklefork see T2X
Oley Berkis 17ft picklefork (may have been Dunn's) destroyed or unknown
Mark Rotharmel's 17ft picklefork unknown
Summerfeldt's Milemaster early fulldeck unknown later picklefork went to Fred Finchim SJ then unknown

Hope this helps
Zonkercraft

Spencer's Mod-U Velden was destroyed in Valleyfield 1980.
The lay-down Pinel was converted to a sit-up by Jim Harrison; last seen in 1983 or 84.
Barry Taylor's Molinari was previously Don Clark's #177; I don't remember seeing this boat after 1971.
Spencer's 1973 full front sprint Molinari was destroyed in the PS100 while chasing down Fountain.
The boat Fincham ran in 1974 was a PINEL copy of a Milesmaster.

2 more Molinaris that Mark Rotharmel reminded my of were a Moly that Tom Wood had in 1971 before he switched to the 'WASP' (a Pinel Moly look alike) and a Moly that Ludy Shindler had before he bought his Scotti - both Ludy and Tom ran OMC.

[David Alaniz]

NOW...just to poke the embers some more ....How many Molinari's are still out there..hmmm??? David..do you know where your's went? Do you know where your Miles went?

Just my thoughts,
Zonkercraft

The "small" Molinari - don't remember. The "larger" Miles went to the west coast. Hmmm, could be in Hollywood.

[willabee]

From the "Jackie Wilson Presents" collection.....he sent this photo of #4, which I'm sure he thinks is a 16' sprint. On the back he wrote that this was his first Molinari....I'd guess this is 1969. It is one of the 18' rockers with a 1250 SBP, a fun boat to drive. They got over a lot of water and could hug a doughnut in a flat-out turn. Looking at the other boats in the picture, I imagine this is another occasion that Jackie would claim that he was "lapping the field" .

The second shot is the black 16' previously posted. Just wanted you to see that, ever the PR man, Jackie managed to get himself on the cover of the entry form for the 1971 Windermere Grand Prix.

The last is a nice shot of "the boys". It doesn't say where or when, but Bob Spaldng seems to be wearing a John Travolta disco outfit and I see the aluminum race jackets.....maybe late 70's. From left to right are Alfie Bullen, his Lordship, Spalding, Cees van der Velden and Tom Percival. Seeing all those guys together sure brings back fond memories.....sad, but still brings a smile.

[T2x]

From the "Jackie Wilson Presents" collection.....he sent this photo of #4, which I'm sure he thinks is a 16' sprint. On the back he wrote that this was his first Molinari....I'd guess this is 1969. It is one of the 18' rockers with a 1250 SBP, a fun boat to drive. They got over a lot of water and could hug a doughnut in a flat-out turn. Looking at the other boats in the picture, I imagine this is another occasion that Jackie would claim that he was "lapping the field" .

Jackie was lapping the field alright.......but what was he doing in sailboat race to begin with??????



T2x

[peterse90]

Willabee;
Is this the ORANGE boat??
Not sure where or when I got this picture but it looks like Ride Guide steering.