old dog wants to learn new tricks

[mr fun]

desire to learn vacum techniques, not even sure of all thats out there. understand the theory of bagging , infusion , and thats about it. need to hear what can go wrong and most importantly how not to damage my mold (which is in pristine condition and had a record setting hull pulled from it, Rebounder is out of this mold , will link to vid ) want my boats to last forever with proper use. left Sea Ray in 88 after running 5 departments and 28 people so not wet behind the ears , any advice would be greatly appreciated. Fun out

[mr fun]

heres that link ,,,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hwzbGVoDpI

Enjoy

extra little bonus race action

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/s...c&action=click

ole boys tryin not to bite a hole in their seat

[LakeFever]

Imo vacuum moulding is best served with epoxy resin for one major reason: you can have enough time to properly saturate the lays and resolve any issues you may have before a disaster strikes. Vacuum and poly or vinyl resin? Probably for the more experienced guys because you only have a small window of time for everything to go perfectly well, or you’re in a real mess. Just how I see it.

For traditional layups, especially restoration hand layed vinylester is the way to go. Its bond is a lot better which makes the end result stronger and it’s easier to lay bubble free because it sticks a lot better when laying glass down vs poly which is pretty slippery and can tend to lift a bit at transitions and curved areas.

[mr fun]

Excellent , Thanks Mr Fever, definantly alot to digest but no hill for a climber. my thought is to eliminate the smell because my shop is close to a very nice area of the beach community with nerds with clipboards abounding. if I could find somebody to handle this part of the equation I'd gladly pass it to them but the only in one in JAX is to proud to work with me , spoke with a guy in the biz about 250 mi south but can't seem to locate him now in the Stuart area if they are still operating , preferably would like to pay sombody and watch and learn , thats all I have right now waiting on my wife to get back from a sketchy Dr appt. will be checking in reguarly thanks again , fun out for now

[David - WI]

These guys have the best series of videos (and the cleanest shop/studio): https://www.youtube.com/@easycompositestv

[LakeFever]

I agree from the outset it’s a lot to wrap your head around. I’m far from any expert I’ve only built one boat and a few parts but there’s no education better than experience. I dove into my build with advice gleaned mostly from historic and at the time current build threads here on S&F and I still had no real clue what I was doing until I got started. It sounds like you’re laying up a whole new hull yeah? If so if there are any hatches or seats or anything else you can afford to toss the first one that’s where I’d start. Once you get a system that works for you? That’s going to be your goto method. For a complete hull from scratch epoxy is probably the ideal route to take. You don’t get the same heat problem you would with a huge reasin lay and I’m pretty sure you don’t get warping and shrinkage either. Only bummer is the price of epoxy and making sure you use duratec vinylester primer between the gel and the glass. Or just paint it. Lots of options

[mr fun]

all this keeps turning over in my mind , day in and out . with the Epoxy method mentioned , keep hearing a voice saying " cold molded " is this what is being referred to considering epoxy kicks at a low temp ?

[LakeFever]

Yes that’s the idea. I spun around in circles for quite a while trying to select the ideal resin for my build and epoxy rides on the top of the list for a few reasons. It’s the strongest resin, it has the best bond, it’s 100% waterproof, the cure time can be controlled accurately and extended greatly, and lastly there’s no heat during the cure so no warping or fire worries.

Iirc you can stretch the cure time out as long as 12 hours. There are a couple concerns with epoxy. It generates amine blush when curing so you need to factor that in by washing with soap after a lay session or use peel ply which is basically fine twill type cloth you put on the top of the lay and after cure you peel it off which leaves a blush free surface and it provides an ideal texture for additional lays. I don’t have much to offer when it comes to bagging but I added info below from what I was provided about it. Another consideration to be wary of with epoxy is gel coat does not bond well to epoxy so it’s generally considered incompatible. The solve here if you want to gel your hull is to spray out the gel however you like. Then spray duratec vinylester primer on the gel then do your epoxy lays on top of the duratec. There’s a tech expert at Hawkeye industries you should speak with to make sure you get the right product they have lots of variations. Hawkeye makes Duartec. The man you want to speak with is Jody their number is 1-800-977-0060 he proved very helpful for me when I was trying to figure out what to use.

For bagging process I made a bunch of inquiries and one gentleman during Covid was sitting at home not working and he drafted me this. Please keep in mind I have not done any of the below this was his guideline on how to vacuum bag so if there’s any errors in here I don’t know what they are because I have never done this. That said it reads very well and I found it extremely informative so I’m going to share it here hoping it helps you out.

It is a rather tricky process with a bit of steep learning curve.
Attached is the basics of materials that you would require to do this.
You would need to lay out the fiberglass creating all your joints and overlaps as necessary.
You need to run a perimeter of spiral tubing around the outside of the part with 1 infusion T anywhere in the spiral tube (this will be your vacuum out)
A layer of the peel ply needs to go over every single part where the fiberglass needs to be infused (the Airtac Mega on the attached will help with this)
You need to make sure the peel ply extends OVER the spiral tubing running around the perimeter.
Apply a layer of the resin flow material, again everywhere you want the resin to go extending up to, but not touching the spiral tube around the perimeter.
On top of the resin flow you need to run a strip of the spiral tubing from front to back (and slightly up the wall of the transom) and put 3 infusion T’s into the spiral tube break it into quarters (roughly) this will give the possibility of 3 injection points (is needed) 1 is usually only needed but having extra will just save you in case of issues.
Cut a strip of the resin flow 4-6 inches wide and lay this over the above spiral tube running down the middle of the part. (you will see why in the next steps.)
Cut your vacuum bag at least 2 feet longer in every direction (or as much as possible) it will all be needed in order to prevent resin pockets from forming.
Once you have the perimeter of the bag sealed and your hoses connected to all of the infusion t’s (poke a hole in the bag with a pencil and push the T through the pencil hole and seal with the sealant tape and push your hose onto the T) , clamp off the line connected to the injections t’s (the 3 running down the middle of the part)
Once the bag starts to get tight, but not completely tight, turn off the vacuum and grab the spiral tube and resin flow running down the middle of the part. What you need to do is lift the resin flow (top strip only) with the spiral tube inside of it up into a fold in the bag allowing the resin flow strip to completely cover the spiral tube and come down the fold and touch the full sheet of resin flow.
The purpose for this is that the injection line will completely fill with resin, as it needs to, and this will get extremely hot when final curing takes place.
If it left on the surface of the part there is a high probability it will leave a burn spot on the part and it will also compress into the fiberglass leaving a unsightly mark.

Once you have lifted the injection line spiral tube into the pleat you can now move the vacuum bag around to make sure that it is touching every single section of the fiberglass.
You need to make 100% sure there are no voids under the bag otherwise those will fill with resin.
After you are sure there are no air pickets under the bag you can continue to pull full vacuum on the part.
This should only take a few minutes to get a tight bag, BUT you should leave the pump running for at least 45 minutes to ensure all of the air is out of the part.
While the pump is running you will need to listen for an extremely high pitched whistling noises as these are leaks, if they are big they sound like a shop vac.
Continue to run the vacuum until you have gone over every single square inch of the bag to ensure there are no holes anywhere.
Even the smallest of holes can ruin the whole project.
Once you think you are good with no holes, you clamp off the vacuum line and do what is called a draw down test.
This is where you see how well the bag is sealed.
Once the vacuum line is clamped off (and just turning off the vacuum will not work as vacuum pumps always flow backwards when under pressure and not running so it will suck the air out of the bag when off albeit very slowly it will) the bag should hold its own pressure and not drop at all even a little bit for at least 15 minutes.
A vacuum gauge would come in handy for this aspect, they are $56.
Once you are confident you do not have any leaks at all anywhere and the bag is holding pressure perfectly, it is time to introduce resin into the equation.
The last item on the list on the attached is to be used on your injection line.
This is regulator that you can use to adjust the amount of resin that is allowed into the part at one time.
You do Not want to allow the resin to flow all at once into the part as fast as possible.
This will cause the resin to flow far too quickly over the surface of the cloth and it will not allow it to penetrate completely through the fabric.
The 1708 is already going to cause some issues in this respect because it is very thick and needs time for the resin to fully work through the fabric.
So you need to open the flow of resin very slowly.
The resin should move away from the injection line at roughly 1-2 minutes per inch.
Too much faster than that and it will penetrate completely through the cloth due to the thickness.
Keep making new buckets of resin as needed to fill the bucket and make 100% sure the bucket does not run dry, this is extremely bad and will cause tons of air throughout the entire part.
Keep mixing and filling until you have the resin saturated within 1” of the top.
Then you can clamp off the injection line and let the resin do its thing.
And it should flow to the rest of the glass.
Then you need to allow the vacuum to run NON STOP for at least 6 hours to allow the resin to fully cure.

[OnPad]

Not that I know much about any of this stuff, but the process that Lakefever posted is infusion. All parts are installed dry, bagged, then infused with resin. This makes a very light, strong part, with less of a time crunch doing layup, and allows testing of the bag seal before resin is applied. A different process is to vacuum bag after doing a wet layup. This way could be nerve racking if you don't give enough pot life, or have problems getting the bag to seal, but I believe is less expense than infusion.

Cold molding is a process that uses wood over a frame, and no mold.

[LakeFever]

Ahhh I had no idea thanks. I figured it meant no resin meaning no heat. Thanks for clarifying

[mr fun]

I want to thank you Fever , David , and On Pad for your kind thoughts and mostly your time helping me and I'm sure many others by the looks of the clicks vs responses Plenty of early morning reading when i'm flopping around in the sack , I just get up and dig in , getting a basic understanding but still want to be a fly on the wall someplace and see it 1st hand before I dare strike out on my own effort and jeopardize the condition of my mold , Many Thanks again . HUGHETT custom boats shall rise pretty much as soon as I can get a grip on my best choice of methodology


Fun Out

[CUDA]

Forget Infusion , If you use slow set epoxy, you can lay it out then Bag and vacuum, much simpler

Just be organized with everything cut ready to go, Here in hot Florida, I would run the air-conditioner at night cool everything including resin, when working with the resin you open the garage door a little to relieve the fumes.

[CUDA]

Forget Infusion , If you use slow set epoxy, you can lay it out then Bag and vacuum, much simpler

Just be organized with everything cut ready to go, Here in hot Florida, I would run the air-conditioner at night cool everything including resin, when working with the resin you open the garage door a little to relieve the fumes.

I use a resin gun when using Poly or Vinyl, it goes a lot quicker, they are very expensive,

It's a chop gun, just not using the fiberglass strands,

After I settle in up in East Palatka , I plan on building a few boats,

It's been 20 years.

[mr fun]

want to try and find a guy I spoke to a while back in jupiter or thereabouts area with shop that does all this , like to bring the mold on a trailer then take it back and finish

[CUDA]

desire to learn vacum techniques, not even sure of all thats out there. understand the theory of bagging , infusion , and thats about it. need to hear what can go wrong and most importantly how not to damage my mold (which is in pristine condition and had a record setting hull pulled from it, Rebounder is out of this mold , will link to vid ) want my boats to last forever with proper use. left Sea Ray in 88 after running 5 departments and 28 people so not wet behind the ears , any advice would be greatly appreciated. Fun out

Todd needs a lead person, will train, if anyone is interested, in Naples, will train,