Question on “the little boats” …

[CUDA]

My first HP boat was a 15 Viper with a 150hp straight six 2-blade prop

Next year a new 18 ft Viking, with a 150 V6. I was sorry I bought it a week later because It wasn't anything more than My 15 with a

Longer nose. not hull, If your boating was in calm water, yes, they will work, but mine was a busy Niagara River and ruff Lake Erie, or

Ontario, neither one is conducive to toy boats; it took a true 20-foot Venus Hydrostream to feel like I had control, and could keep my

foot in it without constant fear.

One day, my girl and I (the one I should have married) put the 18 Viking in the water and she said I'll be here waiting for

You, she was scared ****less of it, so I went out by myself, and a 400 ft long cargo ship was putting up a nice big wall of water and I was about to launch off of it when I thought of my girl and her fear of my driving so I backed out at the last minute, what a mistake, the nose dropped into this 4-foot wall of water, and the windshield of my new boat now had u shape in the center from all the water that came over the top,...

When I drive the way I like to, I never have a passenger.

If I screw up, oh well, but I would never put someone else in danger.

[moatorbotin]

The current rules for outboard emissions came out in 2008 and were effective starting in 2010. In 2010, one could buy a Yamaha HPDI, an Mercury Optimax, a Tohatsu Orbital, or an Etec that met emissions. Far from punishing 2 strokes, the EPA actually has different duty cycles for 2 strokes without catalysts, 4 strokes without catalysts, and engines with catalysts. I am interested in the 'next round of standards' that you mention. Any new standard would be previewed with a Notice of Proposed Rule Making (NPRM). I was unable to find an NPRM projecting tighter standards.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-4...er-U/part-1045

Attachment 529639Attachment 529640Attachment 529641

yup, and people at merc with real world data decided that the opti-pop’s summit was no longer worth the climb due to cost, warranty, manufacturability and epa requirements.

I can tell you with first hand experience that epa regs are killing cool motorized toys. The requirements, the sneaky requirements you aren’t seeing, the “costs”, the taxes, etc imposed on motorized vehicles by the epa is what pushes those offerings off the table.

the EPA killed two strokes

[keith scotton]

The EPA stated around 1996 that outboard motors created .03 percent of the pollution in the World and that nitrogen oxides where what they were trying to cut back on. This is a product of high temp combustion the four stoke and that ALL four strokes would have to have a cataltic converter. Two cycle motors run cooler and create less Direct Injected TWO STROKES create very little NOS and are fare cleaner running and more fuel efficent than most Four stokes. Then all outboard motor manufactures created direct injected Two Strokes. The EPA changed the rules by saying cataltic would not be required on outboards. It is a lot easer to build Horse Power with an ever larger four stroke or car motor turned on end. Two Stokes are smaller weigh less and have less moving parts and are most times simpler to fix. I do not need all the fly by wire stuff to trim and turn the motor JUST A GOOD MOTOR MADE WITH GOOD PARTS and a fair size boat 17 - 24 feet to have a good time and no mine is not bigger than Yours or do I care.
Just Thing I Think Keith

[David]

Perhaps Optimax and HPDI warranty drove Merc and Yamaha to look at 4 strokes. Or maybe it was marketing. Or other costs. Maybe Yamaha wanted to stop working on 2 strokes as they were already doing 4 stroke bikes and cars engines. But it was a decision by an OEM not to invest in 2 stroke technology. The EPA just said meet these standards. And it is possible to meet the requirements with 2 strokes.

[moatorbotin]

Perhaps Optimax and HPDI warranty drove Merc and Yamaha to look at 4 strokes. Or maybe it was marketing. Or other costs. Maybe Yamaha wanted to stop working on 2 strokes as they were already doing 4 stroke bikes and cars engines. But it was a decision by an OEM not to invest in 2 stroke technology. The EPA just said meet these standards. And it is possible to meet the requirements with 2 strokes.

Yes, they can meet the standards, but it wasn’t cost effective to try and manufacture 2 strokes to those standards.

hence, the EPA killed the 2 strokes.

same thing happening/happened to motos and snow machines epa regs and emission requirements pushing mfgs away from 2 strokes.

[LakeFever]

Sleds are precisely why im harping on about two stroke development. The best fuel mileage and fastest trail sleds out there are two strokes made by three different manufacturers too. Etec sleds are dominant but there are plenty of others. Lightweight clean power! Heck they have turbo ones now and they really rock! Wayyyyy lighter than four strokes. A lot of older guys who went four stroke have gone back to two stroke sleds because they are way lighter and a lot easier to drive

I cant see the logic in all the extra valvetraine components in a four stroke being cheaper to manufacture than two stroke. Maybe thats the reason? Four strokes have a lot more parts, lots more raw materials, so maybe its a simple more cost = more profit thing

[Speed Jr.]

The average size and weight of an outboard boat has gone up significantly over the past 25 years. Right now the demand for lightweight sleds are still strong. If snowmobiles all of a sudden we're bigger 800+ lbs chassis, the 4 stroke would reign supreme also. Eventually the engineering will get better and they will phase out the 2 strokes from that also. Cant argue with the mileage put on some of them.

They all went 4 stroke due to demand and business longevity. It's a shame Evinrude didn't follow.

I don't see the EPA playing much of an effect, other than advancing our technology further forward.

[skialot2]

Mercury discontinued two strokes because of customer preference. 4 strokes were outselling 2 strokes by a wide margin. The average boater is not looking for a high performance outboard for a lightweight hull to go really fast on the edge like a lot of people on this site. They want a dependable, smooth running, fuel efficient motor that will push their center console efficiently to a comfortable speed. Most people also want something they are familiar with. Everyone has a four stroke car engine. They know how to check the oil level. But they don't fix their own stuff. They pay someone to do maintenance once or twice a year. No need to fill up the oil tank when you get fuel. Can you imagine having to fill the oil tanks on these giant boats with 6 500HP motors that hold thousands of gallons of gas. By the time Mercury discontinued the Optimax, 2 stroke motors did not hold the weight advantage they once did over 4 stroke motors. a 2018 Optimax V6 225 Pro XS had a listed weight of 505lbs. But a 2019 fourstroke V6 225 weighs 475lbs and a 225 Pro XS V8 is 505lbs. They are also equally priced at around 19k for the both the Optimax and the standard 4 stroke V6. The 4 stroke Pro XS was 20K. Continuing to develop 2 stroke engines was a losing proposition from a business standpoint.

I myself love my 2 stroke outboards and will be running them until I die.

[LakeFever]

I certainly agree the customer base by and large shifted their focus away from two strokes. From my experience a lot of lake boaters they dont like the noise mostly and many believe that four strokes get ten, maybe 20? Times better fuel mileage. Its some seriously offset reality but the sizzle sells not the steak.

I know i see this differently because I’m always looking for that window of opportunity. That buy when people are scared buffet thing. I see a lever that makes a smarter lighter easier cheaper to build two stroke that offers the same or better as a competing four stroke a no brainer. If i can build a product cheaper, and faster and sell for less and make more money? How could that not be the thing to do? The opti compressor deal is weird and sort of a bandaid solution as far as i can see. Rotax managed cleaner motors without the extra pump.

Maybe im just a dreamer. I simply feel two strokes are still greatly under developed and under valued. Keep in mind i have no four stroke hate here i love my four stroke vehicles and have a ton more experience wrenching on those than two strokes. Just sharing how i see it. The idea of more with less is a hypnotic drug to a guy like me. Bang for buck, pound for pound, building machines with as close to perfect balance of all? Thats why we are on this forum and what we all share in common

[XstreamVking]

The new softer CONSUMER base brought about the change. How many times on the 4s forums have we heard "unlike 2s engines, no smoke, starts easy and idles for hrs, quiet and good fuel econ. with great power." love it running my pontoon or 200k+ sport boat. How could anyone want anything less. Simply, the new boaters, and some old ones, want the ease of operation and the "newest thing" out. And they DON'T CARE what they cost or how long the wait. And like said no one wants an 18' V-King anymore except a few boat nuts that still enjoy the experience that bigger boats can't deliver.

[David]

I never got to see for sure which DI technology was best for 2 strokes. The Orbital system, with a separate air injector pump, aka Optimax, was mechanically complex, but the air injection produced a finer droplet size. Finer droplets should give a cleaner burn. Was that worth the complexity over the HPDI or Etec systems? I don't think the systems were around long enough to know which was best.

Practically, it's a lot easier to access the plugs in our 150 HO Etec then to change the plugs in my 200XS ROS. And even though it's easier to get at the plugs, I only need to do it every 3 years. Its hard to imagine that maintenance on a 4 stroke would be as easy as on an Etec, but if one is paying to have the winterizing done, it doesn't matter.

[moatorbotin]

Sleds are precisely why im harping on about two stroke development. The best fuel mileage and fastest trail sleds out there are two strokes made by three different manufacturers too. Etec sleds are dominant but there are plenty of others. Lightweight clean power! Heck they have turbo ones now and they really rock! Wayyyyy lighter than four strokes. A lot of older guys who went four stroke have gone back to two stroke sleds because they are way lighter and a lot easier to drive

I cant see the logic in all the extra valvetraine components in a four stroke being cheaper to manufacture than two stroke. Maybe thats the reason? Four strokes have a lot more parts, lots more raw materials, so maybe its a simple more cost = more profit thing

a large percentage of trail riding dirt bikers strongly prefer the 2 strokes as well. Better low end, less expenseive to maintain, lighter, etc.

Moto guys prefer the 4 stroke because you can ride them lazy as hell.