electric catamaran boat to set world record

[Chaz]

I got a great idea ...

Why don't we let the oil company's do what they do best .. drill for oil and refine it into many-many useful products ... that we use every day .. without government interference ..
Can you think of one single thing the government gets involved in .. they they don't make worse .. ????
Ronnie, I understand that pizz regular gas cost's over $10.00 a gallon in the Netherlands , but again, that has more to do with government's than oil in Europe.
Fix the government(s) , and fuel prices will come down to where they belong.
Trying to develop pie-in-the-sky George Jetson technology to have cheap fuel will only have the same governments take control of that as well. It's the same here, January 1 2021 we turned our government over to idiots that are trying to go so far as to ban red meat because of cow farts. You can imagine how they feel about the oil industry.

I have been in merge situations that went from three lanes to two. Merge in 5 mile signs, merge in 1 mile .. then the orange cones that lead to either two lanes that move along at 50 mph .. or a bottleneck that takes an hour to creep thru.
I think we would be better off teaching the tards that dont merge early, that they are not special, they are not important .. if anything, they should have their license suspended for 30 days for being so stupid. How much fuel does it waste for so many cars and trucks to needlessly sit still running. Nine times out of ten, the idiots have tree hugger decal or other proof they belong to a left tard club. Then they are the first ones to scream about gasoline is the cause of smog ..

I have studied up on hydrogen for a while now. It naturally got a bad rap because of it's use by the military. Which will be a hard handle to shake ..
About twenty years ago an elderly, friend / customer , brought over a badly used / abused / "Browns Gas" welder that was made in China. No instruction book, wires, no plug, just a single lead with a small torch that wasn't attached.

https://www.mypromolife.com/blog/202...re-to-hydrogen

It is said that with Brown's gas you can weld dissimilar metals together. metal to tile and ceramic, plastics .. bore laser perfect holes .. etc.
As well as use it for breathing treatment's and other health related issues .. which was why he was interested in it.
How it all worked was above my pay grade. If I need to weld something or bore a hole in it .. I have tools that do a good job, at a fair price. If I was to wait on the super-tech stuff to come online .. I would have had to move to California, so I too could be a bum on the street ...
We have a saying over here for those who do things azz-bakwards. It's called :
Putting the cart in front of the horse ...
So for idiots that think it's wise to declare war on the gas and fuel industry , decades before a "better" alternative is in place .. are just fools that cannot be trusted with much more than a lemon-aid stand ..

[John S]

This is a boating site, let's get back on track. The polititards can post all they want. Aint_gonna_change_nuffin.

https://www.designboom.com/technolog...ch-09-12-2022/

[pcrussell50]

This is a boating site, let's get back on track. The polititards can post all they want. Aint_gonna_change_nuffin.

https://www.designboom.com/technolog...ch-09-12-2022/

Agree. Which is why I stayed out of politics, stuck to the math and made this offer:

BTW, since this is a recreational boating forum, we can go through the calculations together about why or why not, lithium propulsion boating will or will not work for us. And the math is pretty easy too. We can do it together so you're not just having to trust me on faith. After having done the calculations, I know that in our case, a lithium powered boat would not work for us. Maybe it would work for you? We can find out easily enough.

The offer stands.

-Peter

[John S]

The offer stands.

-Peter

Absolutely! I love learning new ****. I was simply emphasizing the never part, and meaning electric flight. You were more focused on the type of batteries, which o didn't notice (phone screen, even smaller attention span). Never is a long time, and all I was saying is so many things are possible the way technology is advancing. But by all means, whip out the napkin. Them maybe you can help me determine the the ending fork length with the offset changes on my MTB. It's either you or Google.

FYI, mr Crussell, not only is this a boating site, it's somewhere to have/poke fun and bs. Let's not be all cereal, like the polititards that infest it ATM.

[pcrussell50]

Absolutely! I love learning new ****. I was simply emphasizing the never part, and meaning electric flight. You were more focused on the type of batteries, which o didn't notice (phone screen, even smaller attention span). Never is a long time, and all I was saying is so many things are possible the way technology is advancing. But by all means, whip out the napkin. Them maybe you can help me determine the the ending fork length with the offset changes on my MTB. It's either you or Google.

FYI, mr Crussell, not only is this a boating site, it's somewhere to have/poke fun and bs. Let's not be all cereal, like the polititards that infest it ATM.

I’m also a downhill mountain biker. Fork length has never been an issue for me, with 200mm of travel.

BTW, I never said there wouldn't be electric flight. There already is electric flight. Electric RC airplanes have been around as long as there has been radio control, so ... 100 years or so? Maybe 90? And today there is even lithium flight. But it's propeller planes, flying slow propeller speeds at low propeller altitudes and for very short times. Think, take your million dollar lithium aerobatic airplane up for a few minutes of looping and rolling then land it. If you're talking traveling long, far, fast, and high, it is not possible to build something that is lithium powered that will not collapse under it's own weight, even with no passengers or cargo, just sitting on the ground, much less actually get airborne and go anywhere. Your own and Cuda's articles said the same thing. THAT's why I said that it was not going to happen until some so far unimagined new technology comes along. But lithium is still the top dog, even after 30 years, and nobody has brought anything better to market yet. That is not the same thing as saying it will never happen. Just that it cannot happen with lithium, and that we haven't come up with anything better yet.

===

As to boating, here's the cocktail napkin:

-Battery capacity/range/duration:
The top-dog battery that you can actually buy, is Tesla's 100kWh long range battery for the Model S. There is 1.341 horsepower per kilowatt. So Tesla's top dog, $25,000-$45,000 battery* will make 134 horsepower for 1 hour. Or 200kW (268hp) for 30 minutes, etc.... If you are taking your catamaran on a record speed run, you can do 600kW (a little over 800 hp) for about ten minutes. You would probably have support boats to tow you back. Anyway You can divide up your 134hp for one hour, any way you like. That means from full 100% charge, to zero, dead in the water. That's not bad in a road car that only takes 20-25 horsepower to go 65mph. You can go for hours like that.

BUT...

How much horsepower does it take to run a planing hull boat? I think at least ten times as much as a car of equal weight, depending on the weight and hull design. And the drag goes up with the square of velocity. I promised simple math, so we can stay away from squaring for now. Anyway if a 4000lb car needs 20hp to go 65mph, a 4000lb boat probably needs at least 250hp to go 65mph. Maybe more. Maybe way more. But most of us probably don't have outboard boats that heavy. We can debate a few percentage either way, as I'm not 100% sure for heavy boats. Our 18 foot boat with a 150hp Merc does about an rpm match. At 4000 rpm it's about 40 mph. At 5000 rpm, it's about 50 mph. I have actually not run it out to the full 5500 rpm. But if at 4000 rpm it's taking say, 100hp to go 40mph, if we had the big dog, 100kWh Tesla battery in it, we could go 40mph from a full charge for 1:20 minutes and then be dead in the water. If we limit ourselves to 1 hour of planing at 40mph, or towing tubes at slower speeds but higher drag, we can use the rest for idling in and out of the no wake zone and have a few minutes to spare just so we're not worried about being at zero and still in the water. Our 18 foot boat is small and light. It's just right for two adults and our 8 and 12 year old girls. Any more and it's getting tight. So... maybe we could get by with the big dog Tesla battery as long as we don't do "all day on the lake", type boating. We usually do half-days, so ... Maybe... with a little range anxiety, we could squeak by. That's us.

(*It's tough to find out what Tesla actually charges for this battery or if they will sell you one if you don't own a Tesla, but maybe there's a way?)

-Now let's talk about weight
The 100kWh big dog Tesla battery weighs 1200 lbs, or about the weight of three, 430hp LS3 V8's. That alone takes it out of contention for us, because our 18 foot boat is not rated for that weight. If we put it in our boat, and never even got in it ourselves, we would already be in violation of our hull's USCG weight rating. So that makes it a non-starter for us, on both safety and legality rules. Not to mention space, but hey, we're cocktail napkin here, right? But if you have a boat that can float that kind of weight, AND carry all your people and gear, it might be OK for you. But at 134 horsepower for one hour, from full capacity to dead in the water, and in a big enough boat to float it, you'll be in for some rather short outings. Or maybe your boat is big enough to float 2500lbs of batteries (for two Tesla 100kWh batteries), plus all your people and gear? Then you could get 134 horsepower for two hours before being dead in the water. Mine isn't even big enough for one of them, so I'm out. And even if it was, it's not quite enough duration for one of our half-day outings.

I have left out any discussion of the added weight of cooling and charging systems, for the sake of simplicity, but those will add even more weight but are absolutely necessary to get the range/capacity Tesla claims, and to keep your battery from turning into a fire bomb. For example, I'm not sure the battery's computer safeties would let you could run it at or near full discharge rate, say 1000kW (which would take you from full to zero in six minutes), because of the risk of battery overheat and fire. Also, if you run too hard for too long, the battery will need to eat into some of it's capacity, in order to cool itself. If you boat in cold climates, the battery will need to eat into even more of it's capacity, to warm itself (this from a buddy of mine who owns a Tesla). Anyway, I've left that stuff out of this discussion in the spirit of cocktail napkin math.

So... Will it work for you? It won't for us. And our needs are modest.

-Peter

[RiverRat71]

I’m also a downhill mountain biker. Fork length has never been an issue for me, with 200mm of travel.

BTW, I never said there wouldn't be electric flight. There already is electric flight. Electric RC airplanes have been around as long as there has been radio control, so ... 100 years or so? Maybe 90? And today there is even lithium flight. But it's propeller planes, flying slow propeller speeds at low propeller altitudes and for very short times. Think, take your million dollar lithium aerobatic airplane up for a few minutes of looping and rolling then land it. If you're talking traveling long, far, fast, and high, it is not possible to build something that is lithium powered that will not collapse under it's own weight, even with no passengers or cargo, just sitting on the ground, much less actually get airborne and go anywhere. Your own and Cuda's articles said the same thing. THAT's why I said that it was not going to happen until some so far unimagined new technology comes along. But lithium is still the top dog, even after 30 years, and nobody has brought anything better to market yet. That is not the same thing as saying it will never happen. Just that it cannot happen with lithium, and that we haven't come up with anything better yet.

===

As to boating, here's the cocktail napkin:

-Battery capacity/range/duration:
The top-dog battery that you can actually buy, is Tesla's 100kWh long range battery for the Model S. There is 1.341 horsepower per kilowatt. So Tesla's top dog, $25,000-$45,000 battery* will make 134 horsepower for 1 hour. Or 200kW (268hp) for 30 minutes, etc.... If you are taking your catamaran on a record speed run, you can do 600kW (a little over 800 hp) for about ten minutes. You would probably have support boats to tow you back. Anyway You can divide up your 134hp for one hour, any way you like. That means from full 100% charge, to zero, dead in the water. That's not bad in a road car that only takes 20-25 horsepower to go 65mph. You can go for hours like that.

BUT...

How much horsepower does it take to run a planing hull boat? I think at least ten times as much as a car of equal weight, depending on the weight and hull design. And the drag goes up with the square of velocity. I promised simple math, so we can stay away from squaring for now. Anyway if a 4000lb car needs 20hp to go 65mph, a 4000lb boat probably needs at least 250hp to go 65mph. Maybe more. Maybe way more. But most of us probably don't have outboard boats that heavy. We can debate a few percentage either way, as I'm not 100% sure for heavy boats. Our 18 foot boat with a 150hp Merc does about an rpm match. At 4000 rpm it's about 40 mph. At 5000 rpm, it's about 50 mph. I have actually not run it out to the full 5500 rpm. But if at 4000 rpm it's taking say, 100hp to go 40mph, if we had the big dog, 100kWh Tesla battery in it, we could go 40mph from a full charge for 1:20 minutes and then be dead in the water. If we limit ourselves to 1 hour of planing at 40mph, or towing tubes at slower speeds but higher drag, we can use the rest for idling in and out of the no wake zone and have a few minutes to spare just so we're not worried about being at zero and still in the water. Our 18 foot boat is small and light. It's just right for two adults and our 8 and 12 year old girls. Any more and it's getting tight. So... maybe we could get by with the big dog Tesla battery as long as we don't do "all day on the lake", type boating. We usually do half-days, so ... Maybe... with a little range anxiety, we could squeak by. That's us.

(*It's tough to find out what Tesla actually charges for this battery or if they will sell you one if you don't own a Tesla, but maybe there's a way?)

-Now let's talk about weight
The 100kWh big dog Tesla battery weighs 1200 lbs, or about the weight of three, 430hp LS3 V8's. That alone takes it out of contention for us, because our 18 foot boat is not rated for that weight. If we put it in our boat, and never even got in it ourselves, we would already be in violation of our hull's USCG weight rating. So that makes it a non-starter for us, on both safety and legality rules. Not to mention space, but hey, we're cocktail napkin here, right? But if you have a boat that can float that kind of weight, AND carry all your people and gear, it might be OK for you. But at 134 horsepower for one hour, from full capacity to dead in the water, and in a big enough boat to float it, you'll be in for some rather short outings. Or maybe your boat is big enough to float 2500lbs of batteries (for two Tesla 100kWh batteries), plus all your people and gear? Then you could get 134 horsepower for two hours before being dead in the water. Mine isn't even big enough for one of them, so I'm out. And even if it was, it's not quite enough duration for one of our half-day outings.

I have left out any discussion of the added weight of cooling and charging systems, for the sake of simplicity, but those will add even more weight but are absolutely necessary to get the range/capacity Tesla claims, and to keep your battery from turning into a fire bomb. For example, I'm not sure the battery's computer safeties would let you could run it at or near full discharge rate, say 1000kW (which would take you from full to zero in six minutes), because of the risk of battery overheat and fire. Also, if you run too hard for too long, the battery will need to eat into some of it's capacity, in order to cool itself. If you boat in cold climates, the battery will need to eat into even more of it's capacity, to warm itself (this from a buddy of mine who owns a Tesla). Anyway, I've left that stuff out of this discussion in the spirit of cocktail napkin math.

So... Will it work for you? It won't for us. And our needs are modest.

-Peter

Dude, you need to quit ****in up everybody's "pie in the sky". RR

[pcrussell50]

Oh, and one final thing to round out the discussion... The 100kWh Tesla battery? 100kWh is the same amount of energy as in 2.7 gallons of gasoline, and about 2.3 gallons of diesel. The more common, 75kwh Tesla battery like a lot of Model 3's is just about 2 gallons of gasoline.

-Peter

[Chaz]

Yes, it's a boat site .. then straight into airplanes ..

Boating ..

Which means I'd like to use my gas truck to take my gas powered boat to a local or semi local ramp of my choosing to go boating for the day and then home again.

Or use my motorhome to take my boat to anywhere I choose within the continental United States , for as long as I want .. without libtard gov interference. (declaring war on American produced energy)

Sadly, as mentioned multiple times, it is political. Because if they had their way, no gas would be sold. And certainly no gas or diesel powered boats would be allowed on the water. (think about that before the next knee jerk reaction)

Its been fun to watch the commie left wing idiots get backed in a corner, have no common sense response and have to resort to .. 10,000 word copy + paste essays about nothing. BTW, Calling one political, is political .. I know, in desperation you can't see that ..

I think its great that inventors want to think outside the box. Use those projects to earn college credits. Don't shove wind up rubber band, slow charge solar, windmill, assorted bombs, at the American people .. decades before its ready. Thats just stupid.

I notice that no one has spent the day at the ramp, taking pictures of all the electric boats, of all shapes and sizes .. coming and going for the day ... then coming to this thread .. to show all the unique boats they saw .. Yep, the answer to why they dont is because there are .... zero electric boats out on the water for the day, none, nada ..

Well except for pig stye jons new hooptie ...

[noli]

Oh, and one final thing to round out the discussion... The 100kWh Tesla battery? 100kWh is the same amount of energy as in 2.7 gallons of gasoline, and about 2.3 gallons of diesel. The more common, 75kwh Tesla battery like a lot of Model 3's is just about 2 gallons of gasoline.

-Peter

Wow , thanks for the info. didn't know the Tesla battery has that kind of energy density. The model 3 can reach 300 miles with the equivalent of 2 gallons of gasoline.

2 gallons of gasoline on my Camry gets me 70 miles

Tesla batteries win?






.

[dagodiver]

First electric truck I built. About 12 years ago.
Fun project. We used it as our shop truck.
Did all of it in house. Every thing fit into a standard truck tool
box in the bed.


Dago.

[noli]

.


dago,

just curious, what motivated you to build an electric truck 12 years ago?





.

[dagodiver]

.


dago,

just curious, what motivated you to build an electric truck 12 years ago?





.

Needed a new shop truck and figured we could build one that
was electric for a lot less money and it would do everything needed
around town. Always liked playing with electric stuff.
Built my first electric Gokart at 12 years old from 4 golf cart batteries
and a starter motor from a small block chevy.


Dago.

[noli]

.


Any pics of the go-cart?





.

[pcrussell50]

Wow , thanks for the info. didn't know the Tesla battery has that kind of energy density. The model 3 can reach 300 miles with the equivalent of 2 gallons of gasoline.

2 gallons of gasoline on my Camry gets me 70 miles

Tesla batteries win?






.

It’s not that the batteries win. They lose to gasoline by an almost unbelievable margin. It’s that internal combustion is very inefficient. About 75 percent of the energy in a gallon of gasoline is wasted using IC.

So: batteries are extremely inefficient. The same energy as 2.7 gallons of gas is a 1200lb weight. But that horrible ratio is at least partly made up for by the inefficiency of IC.

In a road car, you can tolerate the heavy weight of a battery. In other modes like a boat or an airplane, you can’t. You can live with an 8,000 lb Honda Ridgeline (Rivian), and a 10,000 lb full sizes SUV (if they ever make on with a battery). But you can’t get by like that with a boat or an airplane unless they are just toys meant for a short period of fun: a drag boat or a 15 minute aerobatic flight.

EDIT: Since you bring this up, We should break this down for proper analysis. You have your propulsive device: in this case IC engine vs. electric motor
… and…

your energy storage medium: battery or petro fuel

Propulsion:
-IC engines only convert about 25% of the energy you give them, into propulsion
-electric motors are what? Up in the low 90’s or so

-So electric motors are about 70% or more, more efficient than IC motors-

Storage:
-Petro fuels (gasoline about 6lbs/gallon), 38kWh/gal = 0.16lb/kWh
-Tesla 100kWh battery 1200lbs/100kWh = 12lbs/kWh

12/1.6 = 75 (check my math) So the Tesla battery is 75 times less efficient than petro fuels, which is a 7500% difference

So while an electric motor is 70-75% more efficient than an IC motor, the battery is 7500% less efficient than petro-fuels. And THAT, is where the problem lies when weight counts, as in planing hull boating.

-Peter

[Noah Burns]

It disgusts me to agree with you on pretty much anything (other than politics it would appear) but you are absolutely correct with this "sentence" here. Nothing the government touches, improves.

Can you think of one single thing the government gets involved in .. they they don't make worse .. ????