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  1. #721
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    Quote Originally Posted by PanRonnie View Post
    In the interest of clickbait

    Port engine is using a hydrogen fuel cell, starboard is a standard turboprop. So not full electric.

  2. #722
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    Quote Originally Posted by wettek;[URL="tel:3376004"
    3376004[/URL]]Port engine is using a hydrogen fuel cell, starboard is a standard turboprop. So not full electric.
    Also, the Do228, which has been in service since the early 1980's has a non-pressurized, box section fuselage. You can put seats in it, but even though it has proper gas turbines, capable of high altitude, you can't fly it very high because you'd suffocate your passengers in the thin air.

    BUT it's boxy fuselage shape, and large, heavy lifting wing make it good for lifting large loads off of short runways (at least with the power available from the proper gas turbines). The tradeoff is that the big, high lift wing means that it's slow.

    BUT, if you are going to play around with heavy electric propulsion experiments, you can fill the boxy space up with big heavy stuff, and the high lift wing can get you off the ground easier than a wing designed to go fast and high. It's probably an ideal testbed for testing EV power that will never be able to carry freight or passengers.

    ===

    Also, the Dornier 228 uses 776hp engines, or about 575KW. When I Google pictures of A 575KW-capable hydrogen fuel cell, they are HUGE. They might have stuffed one in there… one. Or else tbey are running a small one over clocked that can’t sustain it for long (like the Hellkat Catamaran), or they are running it at a lower power and using either asymmetric thrust or reduced thrust in the good side.

    -Peter
    Last edited by pcrussell50; 01-23-2023 at 08:00 PM.
    "padded wonder"
    __________
    the wet:
    Hydrostream Viper, 140 v4 crossflow, some Raker props
    16' Baja/Tahiti/Sidewinder clone, 135 v4 crossflow
    17' boston whaler alert, 90 merc fourstroke
    13' boston whaler, 40hp yamaha

    the dry:
    2003 bmw ///M5
    1993 mustang/griggs racing road race car
    and a handful of clunkers

  3. #723
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Zastrow View Post
    Now for the rest of the story: Yes, General Motors is one of the few automakers spending money on new gasoline engines with a budget of $854 million. They are also budgeting $35 Billion by 2025 on EV technology. Just a small difference of about 35 times more.
    Bradley, ifin you had read the story in the link, you would have seen the EV money mentioned was for a plant where they built battery cooling lines. Not their complete golf cart budget.
    The General building the sixth gen small block only guarantees that gas engines will be around a lot longer than FJB will be in office.
    I can only hope they used part of the government hand out, to develop the new pee-wee.

    it's funny you can spit out a zesty response in what you perceive as a gotcha moment. But turn into a cricket in the dozen or so direct questions i have asked to you in the past ...

    It's a balmy 78* and mostly cloudy here today. Where you're at, I'm sure you have had to run the electric heater in you 60 mile a day trip. Just how much battery life do you lose by running the heater ???
    My guess your answer will be ..................


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I needed some JP2 for my honing tank. I went to our local airport and when the man got finished filling up a jet, he drove the truck over to where I was at ... and filled up both my five gallon cans. I paid him and was on my way.
    Sure seems easier to just fill up the tank with gas, diesel, or jet fuel than waiting on a 30 billion dollar accident to happen, in order to run a heavy, overpriced, battery or a multi-plex hydrogen demodulator. Great Scott ...

    This looks too good to be true .. All you green-heads need to buy up as much stock as you can !

    https://nikolamotor.com/

    But then, maybe it's just a left wing dream ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_Milton

    I love the down hill .. no motor .. $34,000,000,000.00 .. run ... LMAO



    How bout them ZAPGO batterys ...

    I'll say it again ... PT Barnum was right ...


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  5. #724
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    That was a sad shame. A lot of people lost a lot of money being taken by him.

    Unfortunately it’s a story as old as time… People who want for something to be so, badly enough, are susceptible to believing things they are told, when the teller sounds convincing. A shame, because a few well known facts, and some grade school math, is usually enough to tell you enough to clutch your wallet and your hopes, a little tighter.

    -Peter
    Last edited by pcrussell50; 01-24-2023 at 11:00 AM.
    "padded wonder"
    __________
    the wet:
    Hydrostream Viper, 140 v4 crossflow, some Raker props
    16' Baja/Tahiti/Sidewinder clone, 135 v4 crossflow
    17' boston whaler alert, 90 merc fourstroke
    13' boston whaler, 40hp yamaha

    the dry:
    2003 bmw ///M5
    1993 mustang/griggs racing road race car
    and a handful of clunkers

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  7. #725
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    It is too easy to fact check you. You pick and choose your information to suit whatever conspiracy theory you are interested in. The automakers are going EV on many cars as the public is tired of gas prices. The Tesla uses a heat A/C pump. So, the cold weather is not really an issue on battery life. Extreme cold can affect the battery range a small amount. But I do not live in the Antarctic. There is always someone who talks about things they know nothing about and reports it as fact. I own a Tesla and it is not an issue. It could be long time before EV's replace trucks that tow or boats that need a lot of power but for a daily driver car or truck they are going to be major part of the market in the next few years. Now to address your worry of why consumers are buying 4 stroke OB's it's because they want them, including me. It is not a government play to force 4 strokes down our throat. More power, better fuel economy and better reliability. No smelly smoke to deal with on the older two strokes. The O/B market has exploded because of the new engines.

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  9. #726
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    Lichtyear one a dutch startup from the guys who won the solar challenge is in chapter 7
    Sono motors is basicly bankrupt
    I would ha love for these compagny's to make it
    But the sad fact is the electric model T ford still has to be invented
    Like a skater with brandnew mercury 450R's there will always be people able to afford that just not in high enough numbers to make difference
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Screenshot_20230124_182751_Chrome.jpg   Screenshot_20230124_182852_Chrome.jpg  

  10. #727
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    Getting back on to the topic of this thread title... Amazing, eh?

    I'm having the devil of a time finding out more information (tech information that I can run some math numbers on), about the Hellkat battery catamaran. Both the original article posted by Noli and this one I found say that it made it's 100+ mph run using a pair of 180hp motors. Now, I've never had a big fast cat. My biggest boat is 18 feet and goes about 65 with a 150hp motor, just me in it, and no bimini top. It goes about 55 with the wife and kids and all our gear and the bimini top up.

    So...

    -I know cats and tunnels are efficient, but Isn't 360 hp a little thin to push a 32 foot cat over 100mph?

    -Someone here at S&F said that they were running the 180hp motors over-clocked to put out 360hp each for 720hp total, Which makes 100+ sound more believable. Is that something you heard through the grapevine, or something the rest of us can actually read? And can you share a link?

    -Someone else here, (Chaz, I think) said that the boat was towed to the starting line, and still nosed over due to battery drain before the whole 3/4 mile run was complete. Is that true? And was that heard through the grapevine, or can the rest of us read it?*

    I found no detail about the installed battery capacity, but if it was like say, the Tesla 100KWh pack, that could theoretically sustain 720hp for ten minutes, from 100% charge, to zero. I say "theoretically", because car battery packs never see a use case where they would go from 100% full, to 100% empty at full power the whole time. Those kinds of drain rates are a fire risk. Also, a 100KWh pack with all the fire safeties in place would weigh 1200 lbs, or about the weight of three or four 180hp electric motors. So maybe they used a smaller capacity battery? But smaller capacity batteries don't tolerate full power discharges for as long, before they overheat and catch fire. Basically, there is a lot that is not known or that I can't find, about the batteries they used. Does anybody have a link to any specific battery specs?

    Also, on youtube, there is only one video, a promo from the people who made the boat. Doesn't that seem odd for such a monumental achievement? In fact, the whole things seems rather thinly covered for all the fuss that was made about it.

    *In their promo video, it seems plausible that the boat actually did make the whole three quarter mile run without nosing over.

    -Peter
    "padded wonder"
    __________
    the wet:
    Hydrostream Viper, 140 v4 crossflow, some Raker props
    16' Baja/Tahiti/Sidewinder clone, 135 v4 crossflow
    17' boston whaler alert, 90 merc fourstroke
    13' boston whaler, 40hp yamaha

    the dry:
    2003 bmw ///M5
    1993 mustang/griggs racing road race car
    and a handful of clunkers

  11. #728
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    If you want truth not charlies FABLE
    call Shaun Torrente the driver of that boat
    239 703 9400

    https://shauntorrenteracing.com/collections/all
    We have invented the world WE see

    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.

  12. #729
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    Quote Originally Posted by CUDA View Post
    If you want truth not charlies FABLE
    call Shaun Torrente the driver of that boat
    239 703 9400

    https://shauntorrenteracing.com/collections/all
    Don't want to bug a businessman with a phone call asking him for random details about a thing he doesn't sell, and that his employer might consider proprietary, when he could be working or helping out customers. It would be rude to put him on the spot like that. So I went to his web site. And there is nothing in the way of answers to the questions I have asked. If he has information to share, and a story to tell, he should put it up on his web site.

    Right now, it seems as if there is nothing out there in the way of tech specs, and that Vision and the other parties involved, want it that way. Given the mathematics and physics of what we are talking about here, and that they are trying/needing to gin up interest, that is not surprising. Still, I hold out hope.

    -Peter
    Last edited by pcrussell50; 01-24-2023 at 02:32 PM.
    "padded wonder"
    __________
    the wet:
    Hydrostream Viper, 140 v4 crossflow, some Raker props
    16' Baja/Tahiti/Sidewinder clone, 135 v4 crossflow
    17' boston whaler alert, 90 merc fourstroke
    13' boston whaler, 40hp yamaha

    the dry:
    2003 bmw ///M5
    1993 mustang/griggs racing road race car
    and a handful of clunkers

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  14. #730
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    Doing a little more digging on the Vision Marine web site, and using math on the specs they give:

    Vision Marine themselves, is smart. The only boats they sell, are displacement hull boats. For $55,000 You can pile them with tons of battery weight, and putz around the harbor at 5mph for hours like that with your wife or girlfriend, eating cheese and drinking wine. https://visionmarinetechnologies.com/volt-en/

    Their 180hp outboard "system" which includes the motor and two, 35KWh batteries (enough to go from 100% to zero in about half an hour if you are going full speed), is not available for sale to the public. Of course you don't have to use all 180hp. You can go half power for twice as long, about an hour before you are dead in the water. (Of course, you will have to use less than that if you have to idle back through the no wake zone and get yourself up onto the trailer with a few minutes to spare).
    Here is the link to that page if anyone is interested.

    Again, they only sell the 180hp outboard as a system, to OEM boat makers. You and I can't get it. But it Looks like Four Winns has bitten, and says they will offer this drivetrain on their 22 foot H2 hull sometime this summer. They claim a top speed of 40mph. The petro version of this boat weighs 4100 lbs, can carry ten people, and 250hp. It will be interesting to see the weight, price, load carrying, specs for the 180hp battery version. Especially the price. Because Vision's 18 foot, 5mph displacement hull boat is $50-55K USD. But Four Winns does not have any specs up yet. Which seems odd if they are to begin selling them this summer. I have no facts to back it, but I have my doubts this will come off on schedule. Here if anyone wants to put money down and get on the waiting list.

    -Peter
    Last edited by pcrussell50; 01-24-2023 at 11:16 PM.
    "padded wonder"
    __________
    the wet:
    Hydrostream Viper, 140 v4 crossflow, some Raker props
    16' Baja/Tahiti/Sidewinder clone, 135 v4 crossflow
    17' boston whaler alert, 90 merc fourstroke
    13' boston whaler, 40hp yamaha

    the dry:
    2003 bmw ///M5
    1993 mustang/griggs racing road race car
    and a handful of clunkers

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  16. #731
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    Quote Originally Posted by CUDA;[URL="tel:3375592"
    3375592[/URL]]https://www.nasa.gov/feature/glenn/2...-opportunities

    This is what I was refering to, try NASA

    Small Spacecraft Electric Propulsion Opens New Deep Space Opportunities




    An image of Northrop Grumman’s small electric propulsion thruster first light during testing at NASA Glenn Research Center’s Electric Power and Propulsion Laboratory.
    Credits: Northrop Gruman



    The path to the Moon, Mars, and beyond will require a fleet of spacecraft in many different shapes and sizes, including everything from massive rockets that produce millions of pounds of thrust to pioneering small electric propulsion thrusters that fit in the palm of your hand.
    For decades, innovators at NASA’s Glenn Research Center have been developing large, high-power electric propulsion (EP) systems that harness the power of the Sun to energize inert gases and turn them into extremely efficient thrust. Higher fuel efficiency means less propellant is needed, lowering launch costs while allowing spacecraft designers to reduce overall spacecraft weight to carry more payload mass, like technology demonstrations or more powerful scientific instruments.
    The agency’s primary EP efforts have centered on large exploration and science missions, like the 7-kilowatt (kW) NEXT-C gridded-ion system currently flying on the Double Asteroid Redirection Test mission and the 12-kW Advanced Electric Propulsion System used on the Power and Propulsion Element for NASA’s lunar orbiting space station known as Gateway.
    However, over the last five years, the Small Spacecraft Electric Propulsion (SSEP) project at NASA Glenn has been advancing high-performance sub-kilowatt (<1-kW) Hall-effect thruster and power processing technologies to enable smaller spacecraft. By utilizing smaller craft – those that could fit inside the trunk of your car versus being the size of your car – the agency opens more opportunities to conduct ambitious deep space missions at a fraction of the cost.
    In collaboration with U.S. industry, SSEP has developed a lightweight thruster capable of propelling a small spacecraft from Earth to the Moon, Mars, and beyond – a step up from most existing low-power electric propulsion systems produced commercially for low-Earth orbit operations.
    “Scaling down the size and power of Hall-effect thruster technologies, while retaining exceptional propulsive performance, has been a challenge,” says Gabriel Benavides, the lead engineer with the SSEP project at NASA Glenn. “It’s like asking a toy-sized car to drive across country with the same range and functionality of a full-sized passenger vehicle.”
    Glenn researchers have been able to miniaturize key technologies to create the new thrusters. For example, the SSEP propulsion systems use an optimized magnetic field topology and center-mounted cathode, which were originally developed for advanced medium and high-power applications. Such technologies are key to achieving the performance, very long life, and fuel efficiency required for planetary missions.
    Mission developers envision deploying small spacecraft for everything from a cluster of small, orbiting lunar communication satellites to relay data from Moon rovers and astronauts back to Earth, to deep space science missions to Venus, Mars, asteroids, and even the outer planets.
    “Dozens of small spacecraft can fit inside the payload fairing of a single large chemical rocket launched into space,” explains Benavides. “Once deployed, they can each be self-propelled to different destinations of interest.”
    While NASA looks to SSEP to self-propel small spacecraft into deep space, these technologies could be used for commercial needs closer to Earth. Commercial space-related applications include adjusting spacecraft in orbit, spacecraft servicing, and missions beyond low-Earth orbit to geosynchronous orbit or even the Moon.
    Under a research license with Glenn, Northrop Grumman is using NASA’s design drawings, materials specifications, and test data to develop selected electric propulsion technologies for their customer satellite systems.
    “Our partnership with NASA has been very successful in not only developing and testing this small electric propulsion technology, but in finding tangible applications for it,” said Mike Glogowski, Northrop Grumman Space Systems Fellow. “This new capability will enable extensive commercial near-Earth capabilities, including deployment and de-orbiting of small satellites in low-Earth orbit and station keeping and mission lifetime extension of satellites in geosynchronous orbit.”
    The company is currently testing their own variant of the SSEP system in Glenn’s Electric Power and Propulsion Laboratory vacuum chambers over the next two years and hope to launch their first mission using this technology in 2024.
    The SSEP project is jointly sponsored by Northrup Grumman, NASA's Space Operations Mission Directorate, Space Technology Mission Directorate, and the Science Mission Directorate.
    Nancy Smith Kilkenny
    NASA Glenn Research Center

    Last Updated: Apr 25, 2022
    Editor: Kelly Sands




    Tags: Space Tech, Space Travel

    Charlie is
    100% political.
    Cudes mate… I have to ask if you actually understand the cut-and-pastes you keep posting? That's an ion thruster. They deal in thrust levels at the thousandths to hundredths of an ounce. That means they have no use whatsoever anywhere where there is air or gravity. I'm not reading yet another article on ion thrusters, (I've read dozens like it and probably even that exact one), but That picture you posted is of an ion thruster (Hall Effect, I think). The thrust they make is on the order of fractions of an ounce. The 12.5KW AEP makes.... less than a quarter ounce of thrust. That is not a typo. And that 0.22 oz is actually a TON for an electric thruster. Most are hundredths of an ounce. Somewhere down the road, the AEP team says they are expecting to be able to up it to six ounces of thrust. Again, not a typo. And from what I understand of ion thrusters, that is a VERY ambitious goal. As with tit-for-tat replacement of petro (cost, weight, range), with lithium ion, I'll believe it when I see it. It takes too much energy to make more than a few thousandths of an ounce, so a quarter ounce is revolutionary. And probably not sustainable. But we'll see.

    Ion thrusters with their extremely low thrust, will only work in space, where there is no drag, and over very very very long time spans, were even an ounce or two of thrust can build up a lot of speed... eventually... over many years of continuous operation.

    Apologies if you already knew this, but ion thrusters are something that will have ZERO application to our recreation or transportation lives or any kind of propulsion in atmosphere and gravity.

    -Peter
    Last edited by pcrussell50; 01-25-2023 at 03:26 PM.
    "padded wonder"
    __________
    the wet:
    Hydrostream Viper, 140 v4 crossflow, some Raker props
    16' Baja/Tahiti/Sidewinder clone, 135 v4 crossflow
    17' boston whaler alert, 90 merc fourstroke
    13' boston whaler, 40hp yamaha

    the dry:
    2003 bmw ///M5
    1993 mustang/griggs racing road race car
    and a handful of clunkers

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  18. #732
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    Well comodeadore, I asked a question about how much extra power the AC/heater used. Most would answer 5% - 25% more an hour, but you say .. a little bit. Then say something about people talking about things they don't know about. He11 you own one and haven't a clue how much extra battery it takes ... so I'll take it that you were talking about yourself ..

    I have no problem 4-strokes. I've owned at least one ... for the last 54 years. My problem is when "I'm told, I am not allowed to own a two stroke" See the difference, or have you been brainwashed into thinking this is no longer America ??

    Smelly, smokey, icky-poo ... two strokes .. LMAO .. Biotch .. don't cut a corner off you man card ... cut that ****** in half ..

    Two years ago, gas was cheap again. FJB declared war on fossil fuel .. that's why people are gettin shafted at the pump ... period !

    I do have agree, people in big cities don't know how to drive .. it seems they would rather leave the house and park in the middle of streets and highways.
    Before you send your kin folk down here, you should teach them that we only have one shade of green. When it does turn green that means it's time to go ..
    So for those that can't drive, maybe a golf cart is the perfect thing for them.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    50 ... once again CRUP is wrong, However you just about quoted Joe P's exact words who was there and witnessed the run. I trust he remembers every inch of that run ..

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    As far as "everybody want's four stroke outboards" I only saw two boats with dunce caps .. the rest had crew cuts ..



    Gutfeld will be on in 15 minutes ... I gotta go ...

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  20. #733
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcrussell50 View Post
    Doing a little more digging on the Vision Marine web site, and using math on the specs they give:

    Vision Marine themselves, is smart. The only boats they sell, are displacement hull boats. For $55,000 You can pile them with tons of battery weight, and putz around the harbor at 5mph for hours like that with your wife or girlfriend, eating cheese and drinking wine. https://visionmarinetechnologies.com/volt-en/

    Their 180hp outboard "system" which includes the motor and two, 35KWh batteries (enough to go from 100% to zero in about half an hour if you are going full speed), is not available for sale to the public. Of course you don't have to use all 180hp.

    Again, they only sell the 180hp outboard as a system, to OEM boat makers. You and I can't get it. But it Looks like Four Winns has bitten, and says they will offer this drivetrain on their 22 foot H2 hull sometime this summer. They claim a top speed of 40mph. The petro version of this boat weighs 4100 lbs, can carry ten people, and 250hp. It will be interesting to see the weight, price, load carrying, specs for the 180hp battery version. Especially the price. Because Vision's 18 foot, 5mph displacement hull boat is $50-55K USD. But Four Winns does not have any specs up yet. Which seems odd if they are to begin selling them this summer. I have no facts to back it, but I have my doubts this will come off on schedule. Here if anyone wants to put money down and get on the waiting list.

    -Peter
    I don’t know if you’ve run across this but Shaun explains they’re 700 VDC per side and he starts the run at ~340 HP then backing down to about 300 HP.

    Most of the content you’re interested in is 5:30-7:38.

    A problem is only a problem when viewed as a problem...

  21. #734
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    Shaun said the day after the 104 MPH run they ran 109, started at 97 % battery ended up 83 % and could have made another run easly, all on $5.00 of electric, normal shore

    power for charging and this year plans on running faster than ANY outboard so that means 130 ish is their goal, COOL





    https://youtu.be/_s_MdvHaPdQ
    We have invented the world WE see

    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.

  22. #735
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    More power to them..... Nice to see that some people have lot's of disposable income. Cause they sure are throwing it away.

    83 V-King, Mercury 3.0 back on the transom
    Let's Go Brandon, Let's Go Brandon.. Yell it till their heads x-splode.
    Rebuild thread:
    http://www.screamandfly.com/showthre...-it&highlight=
    http://www.screamandfly.com/showthre...cs.&highlight=
    Videos

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