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  1. #1
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    Hydraulic steering problem and solution

    So, I have had this Allison for a little over two years. It came to me with a Merc 240 on it, with a Sportsmaster, and Seastar hydraulic steering. Steering had been "funny" since day one. Scary at times. Pulled the cylinder off and rebuilt it with a new seal and o-ring kit. Bled it well, and it helped a little. Still not right, but livable at moderate speeds. This spring I took it out to a local event and it scared me ......... really got crazy. I limped it back to the landing and started looking for answers. I realized that the steering wheel would respond properly to the starboard, but seemed "soft" and unresponsive to the port (left). Back in the shop I looked for answers ......... helm, or cylinder? A friend stopped by and went to the back and pulled on the motor, pulling it to the port side. It slowly moved all the way to lock with moderate pressure, but the steering wheel did not move. Big problem, but still, helm ........ or cylinder? Two friends said helm. Not satisfied, I called Seastar (Dometic) and got a technician on the line. I described my issue and said I needed advice. He was extremely helpful, and knowledgeable, and told me the way to diagnose this type issue. If you pull the motor to the side (try both ways) and it moves, and it will go all the way to lock without the steering wheel moving, the cylinder is leaking inside. This is what mine was doing, so I went looking for a new steering cylinder. One of my friends has a good relationship with ProMarine and called them to order me a new cylinder. He said that I wanted the best and was told that what they considered the best now is a ProHydraulic Steering​ brand unit that is a direct replacement for SeaStar, at about the same money, but is a much stronger unit, rated for 700 hp. He told my friend that it was the best steering cylinder in this range available, in their opinion.

    We got it and I put it on Friday afternoon. It is indeed a direct replacement, and installation was easy. I had ordered a little quick connect/disconnect tube from MarineTech to assist in bleeding the air out. It goes from one bleed fitting to the other. YouTube videos showed that when using it and a bottle of fluid connected to the helm the air would eventually all leave the cylinder and lines and come into the fluid bottle connected to the helm. Didn't work that way for me. The air bubbles just kept going through the system, round and round, and never bled out at the helm. So, I disconnected one of the quick disconnects from a bleed fitting and closed them both. I routed the tube, that was still connected to a bleed fitting, to an open container to catch any oil. With both bleed fittings closed I rotated the steering until it was about two inches from lock on the rod. Then I opened the fitting 1/4 turn and completed turning the wheel to lock. Lots of air bubbles, and some oil, came out and was caught in the container. I then reversed the procedure to the other side. I could tell I was making progress, as the amount of air bubbles lessened each time. After 6 or 8 repetitions each way I had very responsive steering, with no "grabbing" or soft spots. And, also importantly, absolutely no air bubbles leaving the system.

    Bad news is, it rained yesterday and today and I couldn't go try it out on the river. I am very confident I am going to have a "new boat" steering wise. It is sooo easy to steer, and responsive, now. I know this was long, but thought sharing it all might help someone else out there. I'll report back after actually driving it some with the new cylinder.

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  3. #2
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    I had the same problem with using the same disconnect fittings attached to each bleeder.

    I ended up putting a "T" on this line, then ran a hose from this T back to the fill bottle hanging above the helm. This was a huge improvement in getting slop out.

  4. #3
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    If people would fill the hoses, and cylinder before install and bleed before cylinder is attached to the engine there would be very few air problems with the systems.

    83 V-King, 96 Mariner, 200 hp ff block 2.5 w/a 28p choppa
    We gotta clean this liberal mess up, VOTE TRUMP TO MAGA!
    Rebuild thread:
    http://www.screamandfly.com/showthre...-it&highlight=
    http://www.screamandfly.com/showthre...cs.&highlight=
    Videos

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  6. #4
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    My helm and lines were filled with oil already. I only replaced the cylinder. I didn't have any problem bleeding it after putting it on, once I figured out how best to use the disconnect fittings and hose. What's the advantage in bleeding the cylinder before bolting it to the motor?

    Ran it today and the steering is as good as I imagined. I fought a bad steering cylinder for two years before realizing it. My bad!
    Last edited by AlliStan; 06-25-2021 at 05:09 AM.

  7. #5
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    Ran across this this post looking for something that might could shed light on the steering issue I'm having.Went to Seastar's website looking for a replacement cylinder and found this caution. Anyone ever noticed it before?? I wonder how many "Go-Fast" boats out there running Seastar Steering systems that were installed by Manufacturers and Dealers?? I guess they place it there to assist in "Avoiding" liability issues in the event of litigation. I say assist because these days attorneys will find a way to make anyone liable for anything!

    CAUTION:
    Not recommended for use in installations where;

    a) Chopper, cleaver or surface piercing propellers are used,
    b) The engine is highly elevated on the transom,
    c)Engine trim tabs have been removed,
    d)The boat speed exceeds 75 mph (120 km/h), or
    e)The power exceeds the maximum Coast Guard or M.O.T. recommendations for the boat.
    Last edited by Bulletman20; 07-01-2021 at 08:26 AM.

  8. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulletman20 View Post
    Ran across this this post looking for something that might could shed light on the steering issue I'm having.Went to Seastar's website looking for a replacement cylinder and found this caution. Anyone ever noticed it before?? I wonder how many "Go-Fast" boats out there running Seastar Steering systems that were installed by Manufacturers and Dealers?? I guess they place it there to assist in "Avoiding" liability issues in the event of litigation. I say assist because these days attorneys will find a way to make anyone liable for anything!

    CAUTION:
    Not recommended for use in installations where;

    a) Chopper, cleaver or surface piercing propellers are used,
    b) The engine is highly elevated on the transom,
    c)Engine trim tabs have been removed,
    d)The boat speed exceeds 75 mph (120 km/h), or
    e)The power exceeds the maximum Coast Guard or M.O.T. recommendations for the boat.

    standard for everything you buy for a performance boat including the ash tray

  9. #7
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    I too bought one of the bleeder kits that have the fittings that go from one bleeder port to the other just to find out it was a basic waste of money. The air would simply go round and round inside the entire system and would rarely let air escape up the fill tube into the bottle. Seastar rep laughed and said those instructions are completely wrong, to do it following their instructions. I did so and it worked perfectly on the new cylinder I installed!

  10. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulletman20 View Post
    I too bought one of the bleeder kits that have the fittings that go from one bleeder port to the other just to find out it was a basic waste of money. The air would simply go round and round inside the entire system and would rarely let air escape up the fill tube into the bottle. Seastar rep laughed and said those instructions are completely wrong, to do it following their instructions. I did so and it worked perfectly on the new cylinder I installed!
    Yes....just go the old school route with this system and bleed each right and left direction into a cup until all air has evacuated. Sometimes with Seastar, it will take some bouncing around over waves and a good hot day to reveal the last of the air in the system
    1977 Hydrostream Vector 2.5 Promax

  11. #9
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    This is the best way to bleed hydraulic steering. Do it twice once the day following and you get allll the micro bubbles out. After bleeding nice and tight shut off the bleeders and leave the whole bleed rig attached all night. Come back the next day and don’t touch it until you crack the bleeders. Then rotate the wheel and you get a few more tiny bubbles out. If it’s done right you cannot turn the wheel past lock no matter how hard you try. If you can over clock the helm when the motors cranked? There’s air in there.

    mines so good I can one hand it though chine onto the pad

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pix1t7ROQ6U
    Hydrostream dreamin

  12. #10
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    Hoist the back of the boat up in the air, have a long hose on the fill and its all done by itself with a few small moves of the wheel
    Its all about the height and run of the hoses and cylinder...
    Maybe just remove the cylinder and tie it up, lower the trailer front...
    Last edited by powerabout; 07-22-2021 at 09:25 PM.

  13. #11
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    Promised to report back on the big ProHydraulic steering cylinder. It is performing flawlessly. It's a seriously strong looking unit, without being much heavier than a SeaStar. The cylinder shaft is noticeably larger in diameter. The Allison has been transformed from a erratic driving boat to an easy boat to drive, even under high torque. It's one-handed steering now, if I want to, to either side. Really seems to be a fine piece of equipment.

    Everybody has their own favorite method of bleeding them, but the little quick-disconnect hose that snaps onto he two bleed fittings, with a "tee" in the middle, and a hose leading up to the bottle of fluid is the simplest and easiest method I've ever used. It is absolutely a one man job, and you can see the amount of air bubbles as they come out, while turning the wheel at the helm. No other way for me, now.

  14. Likes LakeFever liked this post
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    One handed! You got it now. Agree the bleeding system of dumping air into fluid at a higher point than the system works perfect. No need to worry about line routing or elevating anything the air gets pushed out and only fluid can re-enter. Easy peasy one man job

    congrats
    Hydrostream dreamin

  16. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeFever View Post
    One handed! You got it now. Agree the bleeding system of dumping air into fluid at a higher point than the system works perfect. No need to worry about line routing or elevating anything the air gets pushed out and only fluid can re-enter. Easy peasy one man job

    congrats
    that will work IF there is no high point in a line to hold air

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    Quote Originally Posted by powerabout View Post
    that will work IF there is no high point in a line to hold air
    have you done this method I mention and linked? I’m sure you would feel a lot more confident in this way if you try it. The air gets moved out of the lines no matter the routing with this method. Air cannot get trapped if it’s flowing steady through BOTH lines at once it’s a constant state of flow. Think garden hose, you can route a dry empty hose however you like once the water is flowing you don’t get air bubbles spitting out. You just keep turning the wheel each direction slowly until all the air is out which you can see in the clear lines. Once it looks like steady fluid flowing only tighten bleeders while leaving the whole bleed rig attached and turn the wheel to lock, if it can be turned past lock there’s air in it so repeat process. The only thing I have noticed is this generates micro bubbles which can be removed by allowing to settle for a day and bleed again as I mentioned above.

    anyways suit yourselves it’s just advice your all of course welcome to do this however suits your fancy, I’m trying to assist some here as I see all too often guys with hydraulic steering complain of scary behavior. It’s air in the lines! I noticed some threads I read earlier that racers would crank the wheel last lock in both directions before a race to set the steering up. This to me is insane because there is air in there and if you can turn the wheel past lock? That’s how you know.

    it’s your life, get the air out. Almost all the vids I watched on YouTube with the stupid balance hose method are plain dumb and useless. The air has to go somewhere and by dumping it into fluid to bubble out while draining back into the helm there is no way air can re enter the system. The only air that remains is the micro bubbles for cavitation in the helm during this process hence the two stage method.

    be safe and get your air out
    Last edited by LakeFever; 07-23-2021 at 04:15 AM.
    Hydrostream dreamin

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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeFever View Post
    have you done this method I mention and linked? I’m sure you would feel a lot more confident in this way if you try it. The air gets moved out of the lines no matter the routing with this method. Air cannot get trapped if it’s flowing steady through BOTH lines at once it’s a constant state of flow. Think garden hose, you can route a dry empty hose however you like once the water is flowing you don’t get air bubbles spitting out. You just keep turning the wheel each direction slowly until all the air is out which you can see in the clear lines. Once it looks like steady fluid flowing only tighten bleeders while leaving the whole bleed rig attached and turn the wheel to lock, if it can be turned past lock there’s air in it so repeat process. The only thing I have noticed is this generates micro bubbles which can be removed by allowing to settle for a day and bleed again as I mentioned above.

    anyways suit yourselves it’s just advice your all of course welcome to do this however suits your fancy, I’m trying to assist some here as I see all too often guys with hydraulic steering complain of scary behavior. It’s air in the lines! I noticed some threads I read earlier that racers would crank the wheel last lock in both directions before a race to set the steering up. This to me is insane because there is air in there and if you can turn the wheel past lock? That’s how you know.

    it’s your life, get the air out. Almost all the vids I watched on YouTube with the stupid balance hose method are plain dumb and useless. The air has to go somewhere and by dumping it into fluid to bubble out while draining back into the helm there is no way air can re enter the system. The only air that remains is the micro bubbles for cavitation in the helm during this process hence the two stage method.

    be safe and get your air out
    sounds good but putting oil in assuming the air comes out is still a bit iffy unless small lines and large flow and you have checked there are no high points that might hold a bubble.

    Re the turning the wheel, depending on the helm a test before a race was always wind the wheel to the stop then really lean on it to test the pressure relief valves, that also tested all your fittings and hoses...
    On multi engine rigs with hydraulic synchronizing valves, thats how you sync the engines, wind to the stop and keep going...
    When I look at lots of SOB's they almost always have a loop before the ram, surely they unbolt the cylinder and hold it up when bleeding as that loop will definitely hold air.
    PS IMHO hydraulic oil much better in systems that are designed for that, tranny fluid is not great due to aeration and it expands lots when
    hot.
    Linear Electric actuators will make all this a thing of the past soon....
    Last edited by powerabout; 07-23-2021 at 04:42 AM.

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