Hydrostream vegas core vs. no core

[cameronj]

Hi everyone,

I have a 1991 hydrostream vegas that i am restoring. The work on the core, floor and transom will be done at a boat manufacturer up here in Ontario, the only thing is i have a couple different options as to what way i would like it done. I originally wanted to have them do a balsa core and 3" transom but they are recommending two different options as well and all for a similar price.

Option 1- thicker, stronger fiberglass layup and stringers rather than a "core" with the 3" transom

Option 2- composite core with the 3" transom

Option 3- balsa

I read somewhere of another member here on a thread having a vegas with a stringer set up and no core, hopefully he can chime in. I am essentially looking for it not to be a race or top speed boat as i am out on the water approx. 25-35 hours per week through the boating season and where i boat is multiple lakes attached which does get choppy on weekends and there is a lot of traffic from larger boats throughout the summer as the lakes are on the trent severn. I am hoping to be in the mid to high 80 range if possible. I do have a rebuilt 2011 mercury 250 proXS that will be on the boat which is why i am opting for a 3" transom. I also read another post where they rebuilt their stream using composites and love it except it is very loud as you can hear the impact of waves.

I am leaning towards option 1 but am unsure if there will be a substantial increase in weight. What would all of you experts recommend and is my speed goal realistic with a 28 or 30p drag 4 or promax prop?

Thanks,

[Capt.Insane-o]

Option 2

[RBT]

You need a core, every time you double the thickness of the bottom you stiffen it by it’s cube. Also consider that in order to attain the same stiffness the amount of mass you would have to add would destroy any hopes of performance.
Balsa done properly is better than composite.

[LakeFever]

Here we go, why is balsa better than composite?

[BUZZIN' DOZEN]

Here we go, why is balsa better than composite?

[FMP]

Why certain builders never use anything but wood in transoms and stringers for I/O engine mounts

[LakeFever]

Strength? Thats the only balsa advantage? From what Ive read the negatives are lack of flex leading to cracks which streams are always cracked, i havent seen one original cored or not that wasn't cracked. The composite core materials have give to make them less prone to cracking and more forgiving means more durable. Plus the composites are not prone to water softening like balsa is. From what I've seen the major damage risks are the hull delaminating usually due to cracks and rotted cores. Or the hulls bust in half usually where too stiff meets too flexible.

This is why i was leaning towards the composite core. Id give up some strength and gain in three other areas. Plus new mega pricey boats are all composite core so how bad can it be? Just my thinking and if Im off I like to be schooled back on track


Plus boat builders dont want to sell boats that last 100 years, they want you to buy another in five or ten years. Even Howard himself said that was the intent with the streams was cheap throw away fun. Im sure if he was planning on building hulls to last 50+ years he would have taken a different tack

[FMP]

Typically lack of support range and acceleration of deflection leads to cracking.

If you follow from the source of the shock waves on the hull with meters to map the spread and rebounding and convergence with fresh waves you be able to see the effects. Layup and backing go hand in hand. 50 year old light layups can't really be compared to the new hand in hand of layup and materials backing.
That and everyone seems to be going far faster than the materials were built to handle. 60 mph in a 6inch chop is nothing to 90 mph in a lesser chop.
All in all the streams are amazing that they don't splinter to bits.jmo

[RBT]

Typically lack of support range and acceleration of deflection leads to cracking.

If you follow from the source of the shock waves on the hull with meters to map the spread and rebounding and convergence with fresh waves you be able to see the effects. Layup and backing go hand in hand. 50 year old light layups can't really be compared to the new hand in hand of layup and materials backing.
That and everyone seems to be going far faster than the materials were built to handle. 60 mph in a 6inch chop is nothing to 90 mph in a lesser chop.
All in all the streams are amazing that they don't splinter to bits.jmo

yep, static psi on the bottom is velocity squared times .0132, add waves to the equation it really is amazing

[LakeFever]

So if a composite core is used, it would be prudent to beef up the hull with some ribs. Im still not for sure on the composite core but my main goal with this Viking I have is for it to last as long as possible while still being able to take some waves without fear if caught out in the rough. That and the fact that I keep seeing more and more wake board boats sending off those perfectly clear sharp edge waves I cant always see that are huge and I hit and well... I want to at least have the boat im in not be the danger there. Thanks OP, perfectly timed thread we need more boat talk round these parts

[MattGreen]

Im still not for sure on the composite core but my main goal with this Viking I have is for it to last as long as possible while still being able to take some waves without fear if caught out in the rough. That and the fact that I keep seeing more and more wake board boats sending off those perfectly clear sharp edge waves I cant always see that are huge and I hit and well... I want to at least have the boat im in not be the danger there. Thanks OP, perfectly timed thread we need more boat talk round these parts

You and the OP are on the right track here looking at the best way to ensure these older boats are strong and safe in modern applications. Think about the risk factors here (Hydrostreams especially, but this also applies to other boats of similar age and construction):

- 30-40+ year old boat - possible/probable soft core ? Early delamination ? Soft/rotten transom and stringers ? Some tabbing starting to pull off ?
- Questionable quality control on the original layup (Streams are infamous for this)
- Modern outboards: more power and more torque, more weight
- Overall faster speeds usually
- In many cases rougher water: wakeboard boats as you mentioned (I have exactly the same issue around here - they are everywhere)

Add those together and you definitely need to put some thought into the restoration. There's multiple good build threads on here and some very knowledgeable people to provide assistance (including RBT above - listen to what he is saying about the balsa - good stuff if installed and later rigged correctly). You can have an excellent boat with either a balsa or composite core. Keep in mind the core material selection is only a piece of the puzzle. The resin you choose, the way the new core is bonded to the hull, the way the hull is supported during the re-core, and the inner skin layup are all just as important considerations as the material itself.

Matt

[David]

Skaters are balsa. My brothers Charger is 32 years old, balsa, and tired. Would 30 years be enough life for you? My SS2000 is composite and should last 30 years. A cored boat is stiffer and lighter, RBT is right about thickness cubed. Core for sure, balsa or composite maybe depending what your guy is more comfortable with.

Who is the builder? There are not many guys making boats in Ontario.
Where on the Trent? We are on Cooch

[cameronj]

Skaters are balsa. My brothers Charger is 32 years old, balsa, and tired. Would 30 years be enough life for you? My SS2000 is composite and should last 30 years. A cored boat is stiffer and lighter, RBT is right about thickness cubed. Core for sure, balsa or composite maybe depending what your guy is more comfortable with.

Who is the builder? There are not many guys making boats in Ontario.
Where on the Trent? We are on Cooch

Hi everyone,

Thank you for all the replies, sorry for the late response i've been bogged down with year end financials and presentations.

The builder is tempest boats, they make mostly bowriders but the owners son does recore hydrostreams at the factory as well from time to time. I tried for 3 months to get ahold of John Spaeth or his son to no avail and i want to be rolling this year once the season starts so this was the second best option. I have confidence in them as they have done them before and previous customer's were very happy as well as my grandfather had a tempest boat from the 70's that was sold 5 years ago in great shape still and by the cottage here there are a few of them plus one that has sat for 5 years uncovered in the water all summer every summer overpowered with no cracks on the transom which the floor is still solid on as i have talked to the guy and been in it when he was having some problems with his 150. I am on pigeon lake by Omemee.

I have decided to go composite as that is what the manufacturer works with they have not used balsa for a considerable amount of time, while there i will discuss with him a little thicker layup as well as stringers like FMP mentioned for the exact reason a few mentioned here which is between the offshore boats, cruisers and wake board boats it gets very wavy out there as on weekends there are hundreds of boats out just at the sandbars let alone those cruising around.



I now have a choice again on power as the proXS i bought from the builder is not quite what im looking for as it has the fleetmaster lower and was a 225 proXS originally with a 250 powerhead but the 250 ECU was no good and has a 225 ECU still. It will cost a bit more to upgrade to one of the others but i feel will be worth it. My options are:

1-cheapest-2002 300 promax with 0 hours just rebuilt with a balanced rotating assembly, WSM pistons and the ports "cleaned up" rev-limiter at 6500

2-Most powerful-2008 Yamaha 300 with 0 hours rebuilt for himself with carbon reeds, WSM platinum pistons, injectors flushed/flowed, new filters, updated series 2 oil pump, factory coned VZ gearcase, all ports etc had the rough castings cleaned up and a hydrotech phase 2 kit. Not sure if this is to heavy for the stream though!

3-2005 mercury gold block 250XS with the 6300 rev limiter- This will come with a gen 2 torquemaster with that splash guard and can be coned or unconed and is being rebuilt now and is getting a sleeve on cylinder 2, 6 new STD size WSM pistons rings, bearings etc. (THIS IS THE ONE I AM THINKING WILL COMPLIMENT THE STREAM THE MOST since it is a performance motor while having some decent gas mileage when cruising. It also seems like most ppl that have them want to rebuild them until they blow so bad they can't be and it will have the updated torguemaster the lower HP newer ones have)

4-2013 250 Pro XS that has a bad cylinder 6 and will either be rebuilt with a sleeve or oversized piston not sure as it has not been opened yet but will have a gen 2 torquemaster as well.

Thanks again for all the replies i really appreciate all the help. I will upload pictures as different stages are completed and post numbers once complete and out tearin' up some water.

[FMP]

Option 4 , more layup, stringers and balsa core with 3" birch ply transom

[XstreamVking]

OP's not even responding. I guess he figured it out for himself.