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Thread: 300R Prop Help
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12-20-2020, 09:44 AM #16Member
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12-20-2020, 09:48 AM #17Member
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12-20-2020, 09:48 AM #18
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12-20-2020, 10:32 AM #195000 RPM
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I have tried different jack plate heights but the boat does not gain much speed after about 4" below. It will run fine at 3" below but if anything has more slip with the props I tried. I have run it as high as 1/2" below by mistake and it even came on the plane without any slippage. I have considered a labbed prop but I have not tried any because I am suspicious that this 300R is not seeing full throttle or the optimum timing curve. I have a friend with a 2020 24ft BRX with a 300R as well. Both engines were set up with the Mercury laptop program at Checkmate but that does not mean something could not have gone wrong with the program download especially for the throttle position sensor. What he describes to me in acceleration I am not feeling (part of that is being used to drag cars that did 0 - 60 mph in less than 1.2 seconds). His boat, he claims, accelerates hard to 72 mph and then does an instant violent chine walk that occurs so fast he has to get out of it. He has the exact same 24P FS prop that I do and that prop will not run over 75 mph because you will be on the limiter. I have no beeps and Mercury Racing more or less told me everything appeared "normal" based on the speeds. I also smell gas (smells rich) when I back up at idle speeds, and get a whiff of it which I don't think is normal. It idles and runs smooth, it is just slow. I sent all the prop data to Mark Croxton and he suggested labbing the existing 24 FS, however he said he did not want to do it until I had more hours on it because he also thought it was slower than it should be. The local dealer here was not much help, tried to tell me I have the jack plate set at the wrong height, and other things that perhaps a person that never owned a high performance boat would not know. I asked him that all I wanted was for it to be scanned with the G3 program to determine that I have full throttle, and full timing, and a good AFR according to the oxygen sensors. They said they could also do that but i have to drop the boat off and leave it outside his shop for 2 - 3 weeks which I am not going to do. I will only really find out when my friend gets his handling issues sorted out.
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12-20-2020, 11:35 AM #20Supporting Member
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G3 is the software system that mercury dealers have access to. The system is constantly being updated so that qualified dealers stay up to date on everything from ECU curves to recalls and recommendations. The new motors are searching for an r.p.m. not a throttle position so its not as simple as looking at the butterfly and making sure its vertical or against the stop. This is done with a software program making sure that the full R.P.M. range is being recognized. Several guys have run hot foot throttles and not been seeing the full scale due to lack of throw in the pedal. (Its expensive so not a lot of dealers attend the school and/or purchase the system).
Joe
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12-20-2020, 12:05 PM #215000 RPM
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Joe is correct. If you are lucky enough to not have a DTS engine, then you have a mechanical cable and you can check full throttle easily like all the old school engines from years ago, I believe. My 300R is the digital version which I did not want. The G3 is necessary do to all kinds of safeguards in the ECU program. For example, you can move the lever or foot throttle to WOT in the throttle only mode but the ECU will only allow the throttle blade to open a certain amount since it thinks it is in neutral for example. If the key is on, but the engine is not running and you got to full throttle on the lever, it will not open the throttle body blade because it does not want you to turn the auto start function with the blade fully open. I do not know how to circumvent all of this. There must be a range of throttle blade position at WOT that will not cause the fault horn to beep, but I have no idea what it is. I have seen the "10% less than WOT" mentioned often so I would assume those people had not fault beep so at least that much is allowable?? I wish I had a mechanical set up. The digital is supposed to shift smoother and have other "desirable features" but I still have a bit of a clunk when I shift, and there are no features I am using that I could not live without. With a cable any of us could easily adjust it to provide 100% WOT when the lever pinned. With the digital system, using the G3, the technician I believe can set up the system so that it is at WOT when the stick is only 3/4 of the way forward, making it very sensitive. It has a docking feature (mine appears to not have been programmed because it does not work) where you push the dock button on the control housing and that automatically provides only 50% throttle when the stick is pinned making the throttle less sensitive. That is supposed to make it easier to dock your boat. Anyway, I hope I can find a dealer that will eventually hook mine up to the G3 software and tell me a few basic things that I could see visually or with a timing light years ago.
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12-20-2020, 03:04 PM #22
I ordered a non-DTS motor. I was removing a Verado. The controls were 13 years old and showed some wear and corrosion. So I needed a helm, controls, and a motor. I wanted to save money on the package.
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Checkmate Pulsare 2100 with a 2017 Merc 250 Pro XS
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12-20-2020, 04:38 PM #235000 RPM
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How nice. You won't have to find a dealer with the software, and pay him $150 to tell you if you have full throttle or not as in does the throttle blade open 100% when you have the stick pinned. I think yours still has ASC, so if you turn over about 6350 - 6400 rpm, the motor will still start pulling power to keep if from going on the rev limiter and I don't think you can feel that happening, it just doesn't rev higher and you still need a dealer with the G3 software to tell you if that was happening. However, if you are running a prop that will not rev higher than 6300 - 6350, the ACS system is not supposed to pull any power from what I have read, but perhaps I am wrong.
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12-20-2020, 05:37 PM #24Supporting Member
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All new 4.6 motors need to be set up by a tech with the G3. The cables activate a servo instead of an electric signal activating them. The only money saved is in shifters. This is part of the prevention by Mercury to not have backyard guys rigging boats and hanging motors that will have insufficient mounting hardware, fuel flow, voltage feed, etc.-O.E.M.s or dealers are supposed to mount and rig all new product.
Joe
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12-20-2020, 05:50 PM #255000 RPM
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Appreciate the comments. Checkmate Marine in Bucyrus set mine up with the G3 software and they told me that engine as they received it, would not even start without the G3 set up software. They set up the sister boat to me with the same engine and according to the owner it performs better than mine but we live far apart and have not run the boats side by side. I think during the G3 set up, the software asks you to move the throttle lever to reverse, neutral, forward and full throttle if I recall correctly (amongst many other things) from what I have read. Besides perhaps having a faulty TPS, what could Checkmate have done in the set up (if anything) that would account for soft acceleration and lower top speed? Thought they moved the lever to WOT but really did not? I thought if you do that during the set up, the engine would have WOT with the stick not all the way forward making the throttle more sensitive? I am not impressed at all with my 300R. I just cruise it at 3000 rpm and rarely bother to open it up and find out how slow it is again.
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12-20-2020, 07:09 PM #26Supporting Member
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My guess is that you are not seeing WOT or there is something else holding you back. Call Billy and ask him to re-check it. We had a few of them running with us yesterday (all on cats and everyone has been good since Wayne Duke set their perimeters). Wayne is in Lake City off of I-10 and I-75, you might want to make a run down if you don't have faith in your local guys.
The Argo goes right to 120 at will and he has not had any desire to run it past that point but it continues to pull with a 34 and or 36 on it. I know of another guy that was not happy with his so you are the second "get to someone that has experience or back to Billy". Randy had one with a plug wire that was loose and it was amazing what one cylinder did to the top end "couldn't feel it at idle and had no idea it wasn't on all 8".
Joe
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12-20-2020, 11:10 PM #275000 RPM
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Thanks for your post. I know who Randy Corson is but not Billy or Wayne? You just got me thinking when you said Wildman had a plug wire off and could not feel it at idle or at speed. I assumed I would feel it. I had been planning on pulling all 8 plugs (about 48 hours on them) just to check if some of them look rich or were misfiring because I smell gas sometimes while idling. So I will find out if any of them are loose when I go through that excercise. I once put 8 new plugs into a street Mustang I had. You could feel it misfiring under acceleration but not at idle. I could not believe that some of the new plugs were "bad". I checked everything else and finally re-installed the 8 old plugs, and bingo the miss under acceleration was gone. Funny thing was you could not tell which plugs were doing it by looking at them so I installed 8 new ones again. Only time in my life (and I have changed many plugs) I have seen new plugs that were "bad" but did not miss at idle or low rpm.
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12-20-2020, 11:43 PM #28Supporting Member
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Billy is "Billy Moore" from Checkmate, he and Pete are together in all of the projects. Wayne Duke owns Wayne's Marine and is really good guy (ex-racer, very knowledgeable, and up to date with everything Mercury).
Joe
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12-20-2020, 11:48 PM #295000 RPM
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OK, thanks. Mine was the 2nd last boat built in Bucyrus, Ohio, so I am not sure if Dean Reynolds programmed it or one of his people. That place is closed. I once e-mailed Pete and he seemed like a nice guy but they do not warranty Checkmates built in Bucyrus. Perhaps Billy would discuss the issue with me however, if I call him. I think I will get the plugs out and check them all just to see if I have one that appears to have been misfiring or rich. If I have them out, I might as well put new ones back in even if they only have 50 hours on them.
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12-21-2020, 10:53 PM #30
G3 software is only required to set up DTS motors, there’s an initialization routine used to set up the remote controls where it measures the voltage at Idle and WOT as well as F-N-R on the shifter. It also allows you to set motor position and other minor variables. It also provides TPS readings so a tech can zero the sensor if it’s replaced but they also need to do a full recalibration on the remotes. Again, this only on the DTS motors. On the mechanical motors there are no calibration routines, it’s set at the factory and the G3 can’t reset those. What is not widely publicized is the mechanical motors need 4” of cable travel from idle to WOT to tell the motor DemandLinear throttle is 100%. DemandLinear throttle is the key here, it’s what your getting on the mechanical lever. While under acceleration even with DemandLinear throttle at less than 100% the motor can “demand” 100%, this is where the TPS comes in, the computer uses the TPS value to determine actual throttle opening. However, if DemandLinear throttle is under 100% Demand throttle will pull back as RPM increases never allowing you to actually reach 100% DemandLinear AND Demand throttle so you never reach true WOT.
The problem with most re-rigs is the older motors only need about 3” of travel to hit the WOT stops. If you don’t change the position of the cable on the throttle you will never reach 100% Demand. That’s why the old hotfoots are essentially useless with these new motors, they have at most 3.5” of cable travel. I’m actually a big fan of the SeaStar Pro foot throttle. It’s very well made and can get the full 4+” of travel needed by these new motors.
BTW, I have a fully licensed G3 on my Laptop, I do some consulting work on the side with an OEM so technically I’m an employee, It’s totally legit. It cost me over $600 but it was worth it. Here’s some examples of the outputs. Note, I was running way too much prop for this test on my 250 ProXS and don’t have a 300R run file handy. If someone needs a hookup or config in the Daytona area let me know.
Last edited by mjw930; 12-21-2020 at 11:35 PM.
Mark
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