Have You Checked Your High Speed Jets

[Chaz]

Thank Ya 25two.stroke, I stand corrected. The jets were claimed to be "eleven" sizes bigger, not "ten" as I stated.

So instead of them being 38.116% larger ( but~but~but) it's only .005 per side

Going .011 bigger (from 57 to 68) is an increase of area by 42.319%

World is changing , most people would say Thank You .. I had no idea ..
Today I'm the bad guy ...

Blake,
By saying ... you can kill your injectors in 10 minutes with the wrong stuff and not saying what would be bad . Is not in the spirit of an open forum. I understand you have a buiz to run , but scare tactics usually have me steer clear.

The abrasive you don't speak of is "polyetheramine" or PEA I would imagine. Which all of the "high-dollar" pour it in you tank and let it work "fuel system~injector cleaners" have in it's contents. (Lucas, Red Line, Chevron, Royal Purple)
Those of us with our own ultra sonic cleaning machines chose to use agents like Seafoam or kitchen cleaners like Krud Kutter. Being a bit old fashioned, I mix in a little Marvel Mystery oil and mineral spirits. Guys that build motors that don't have one of the new EPA systems, still use warm soapy water to wash their parts before assy.. Haven't tried it in my injector machine, but I cant see where it would hurt.

I bought mine, so my friends, working partners, and I could do our own without having to drive 20 miles in each direction or wait a few days to get them back. Besides, as most know ... I'm a tool guy ..
I didn't buy it to start a new venture, I can't keep up with what I have now.
However, I'm always willing to teach or learn. Has nothing to do with ego, but instead .. helping the next guy with things that came both easy as well as with a struggle. If you have something to say .. I'd love to hear it, and maybe even debate it a little ..

[keith scotton]

I sat down thought about it some more. Its been stated the motor is 24 years old about has lots of time on it about my guess 4000 hours. If you drove your car for 4000 hours at 55 miles witch is about 2000 rpm or less you cover 220,000 miles. The best a carbureted outboard motor is going to do on fuel mileage is 3 to 4 Divide 220,000 miles by that its 55000 gallons of fuel divided by 6 that is about 9166 gallons of fuel through one jet. An outboard at normal running speed is turning 3500 to 4500 rpm twice that of a car and no I did not say it covered the same miles. Or 4000 hours at 40 mph is 40,000 gallons of fuel 6 carbs 6,666 through that same jet. Just thinking OUTSIDE THE BOX we trap our selves in. Looked at my math it was OFF.
Enjoy Life Keith

[InjectorService]

Thank Ya 25two.stroke, I stand corrected. The jets were claimed to be "eleven" sizes bigger, not "ten" as I stated.

So instead of them being 38.116% larger ( but~but~but) it's only .005 per side

Going .011 bigger (from 57 to 68) is an increase of area by 42.319%

World is changing , most people would say Thank You .. I had no idea ..
Today I'm the bad guy ...

Blake,
By saying ... you can kill your injectors in 10 minutes with the wrong stuff and not saying what would be bad . Is not in the spirit of an open forum. I understand you have a buiz to run , but scare tactics usually have me steer clear.

The abrasive you don't speak of is "polyetheramine" or PEA I would imagine. Which all of the "high-dollar" pour it in you tank and let it work "fuel system~injector cleaners" have in it's contents. (Lucas, Red Line, Chevron, Royal Purple)
Those of us with our own ultra sonic cleaning machines chose to use agents like Seafoam or kitchen cleaners like Krud Kutter. Being a bit old fashioned, I mix in a little Marvel Mystery oil and mineral spirits. Guys that build motors that don't have one of the new EPA systems, still use warm soapy water to wash their parts before assy.. Haven't tried it in my injector machine, but I cant see where it would hurt.

I bought mine, so my friends, working partners, and I could do our own without having to drive 20 miles in each direction or wait a few days to get them back. Besides, as most know ... I'm a tool guy ..
I didn't buy it to start a new venture, I can't keep up with what I have now.
However, I'm always willing to teach or learn. Has nothing to do with ego, but instead .. helping the next guy with things that came both easy as well as with a struggle. If you have something to say .. I'd love to hear it, and maybe even debate it a little ..

No scare tactics here Chaz, Just sharing about some of the stuff I have seen in my time cleaning injectors. I'm going to PM you, I'm sure we do have some stuff to debate.


Blake

[Chaz]

I sat down thought about it some more. Its been stated the motor is 24 years old about has lots of time on it about my guess 4000 hours. If you drove your car for 4000 hours at 55 miles witch is about 2000 rpm or less you cover 220,000 miles. The best a carbureted outboard motor is going to do on fuel mileage is 3 to 4 Divide 220,000 miles by that its 55000 gallons of fuel divided by 6 that is about 9166 gallons of fuel through one jet. An outboard at normal running speed is turning 3500 to 4500 rpm twice that of a car and no I did not say it covered the same miles. Or 4000 hours at 40 mph is 40,000 gallons of fuel 6 carbs 6,666 through that same jet. Just thinking OUTSIDE THE BOX we trap our selves in. Looked at my math it was OFF.
Enjoy Life Keith

It's just amazing that a half a dozen hunks of brass can all erode the exact same amount , over the same time span to the point that they all pass the "pin test" .

In post #21 you stated that you didn't know how many hours the motor has on it , but know for sure the boat was used 2 - 3 times a week . Week in - week out for 24 years .. non-stop ... OK , lets go with that .. because the car parable is just a "If my aunt was my uncle .. dream-wheel"

Lets use your high number 3 days a week. On the average most guys go out 2 hours, which means it takes two hours to get back to the ramp ...

3 x 4 = 12 hrs/week . 52 weeks, rain or shine . 12 x 52 = 624 hrs a year.
624 x 24 = 14,976 total hours .... I cant believe the jets wasn't out ta hunderts or more ...
Go head try another angle .. that one flopped ...

Thats funny , you tell me I should think outside the box ... most "axe" me .. Where do you come up with such wild designs .. I tell em, I spent too much time in the 60's ... it must be one of those flashbacks they promised .. err .. warned me about ..

2.5 minus 110 lbs .. You'd hate gettin involved in heads up outboard drag racing today ...



OMC guy , no problem .. minus 150 lbs.



Soooo , is a 4" mid-section .. open , or closed minded thinking ...
Axin for a friend ...








Blake,
I must have missed the PM .. but we can talk about it here .. I got nuttin to hide.
If you remember, when you wanted a 2.5 front half to experiment with, I told you I'd give you one , just pay shipping. It was a carb model , no injector bungs of fuel rail, so you didn't want it. If I didn't like you , I wouldn't have offered.

It struck me a bit odd .. and I had to read your post a few times to make sure I got the jist of what you said.
I said, Chaz, why would he say some cleaners / additives / snake oil / magic potions have abrasives .......... and wouldn't say which ones they are and what they contain... ????
I made a list , posted it and mentioned that cleaners with polyetheramine are considered abrasive. ( you have yet to agree or disagree )
99% of people who regularly run a pint with a fill up in their truck once a month ( I also dump a box of rid-ex in my septic tank on the first of every month as well ), or put a few ounces per tankful in their boat . At such low volumes .. I know of no-one that has ruined a set of injectors .. by using a "Name Brand high-dollar cleaner" that contained PEA .
You said a ten minute cycle could kill an injector. How many here do you think flow and clean injectors.??? A handful of us at best , and I cant think of any of those guys who would not do their homework and find out what to use and what not to.
My point was and still is , If your going to warn us .. at least let us know what we should be looking out for and why ...

[keith scotton]

That class is called Unlimited it is a run what you can afford class. Has weight to cubic inches requirements. Your math 14976 hours 30 mph is 449280 miles 4 miles to the gallon witch is better than most boats do. 112320 Gallons through six carbs 18720 of gallons and oil through a jet I would think that might erode something a little. Maybe it flopped or did it. Just saying what I have Seen. Have You ever Driven anything 400000 miles. It has a Good chance to ware out some time in between 0 and 400000 miles. That is why I change my oil and lube my truck and car every 5000 miles and its still worn out but goes.
Still Thinking With Your Math. I like all the smile face will try to figure that out.
Enjoy Life Keith

[Chaz]

Thanks for letting me know what those guys were going to use those mid - sections for ... after I built them.

Using your time frame and usage parameters ... I showed you how foolish your , miles / hours / odometer / speedometer / formula's sound. If you still need to look for a bad guy , try to find the guy ... who drilled out the jets ...

[InjectorService]

Chaz,

I got busy yesterday after posting, but there should be one in your inbox now. PEA is definately one of the chemicals that could be considdered potentially harmful to injectors in large dosage, however I do agree with you that in small dosages there is little damage to be had.

I wasn't reffering to you or any of the other reputable injector cleaners damaging injectors, however I'm sure you have seen, as have I, customers or shady businesses that have used a corrosive cleaner and damaged either a carb, or injector, by using a harsh cleaner or incorrect process. Purple Power is the one cleaner that came to mind, as this is what I saw eat away the carb butterfly.

Purple Power contains: Potassium Hydroxide, Monoethanolamine & Sodium Metasilicate, all which are corrosive.

Blake

[keith scotton]

So you built those mids call Monte ask him if jets erode.

[Chaz]

Chaz,

I got busy yesterday after posting, but there should be one in your inbox now. PEA is definately one of the chemicals that could be considdered potentially harmful to injectors in large dosage, however I do agree with you that in small dosages there is little damage to be had.

I wasn't reffering to you or any of the other reputable injector cleaners damaging injectors, however I'm sure you have seen, as have I, customers or shady businesses that have used a corrosive cleaner and damaged either a carb, or injector, by using a harsh cleaner or incorrect process. Purple Power is the one cleaner that came to mind, as this is what I saw eat away the carb butterfly.

Purple Power contains: Potassium Hydroxide, Monoethanolamine & Sodium Metasilicate, all which are corrosive.

Blake

There it is guys, from the horses mouth : Don't hitch you injector to a 9 volt battery and start pushin "purple parts eater thru the hole" ...

I build a brake pedal box that use twin Wilwood master cylinders, for 911 Porsche's. There are a a few stops involved that I cut a recess on the outside of of a Allen bolt head and weld a washer in place. A ol guy told me a long time ago to dip the washer and bolt heads in Muriatic acid and it would come out like it was never dipped. (wear a respirator) He was right , clean as a whistle and no popping and banging from the cad or black oxide that was still in the pours , like when I just sanded them.
Welp, a kid that was with me at the time dipped two ears from a Muncie 4-speed that i needed to weld back on the case. Needless to say, in about a minute they were reduced to unrecognizable blobs ... I made the kid, make new ones .. on his time ..
Bought a new pump for my clean room parts washer tank. Used mineral spirits like always .. used it once. Turned it on the second time, locked up solid. Bought another one (read the instructions this time) Bought 5 gallons of some stuff that you mix with water . Pump still works , but it ate the paint off of the tank ... LOL

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. Jet Slayer,
I don't need to call him, I see him 2 - 3 times a week. So , for you , I'll ask :
Yo G , I hear that OMC carb jets are made out of ******* alka-seltzer , WTF zat-true .. ???

But honestly .. I would have thought by now you would have posted a picture of the inside of a handfull of jets with barnicles , small aquatic ameba swimming around inside the orifice ... all pitted and eroded out to perfect .011 over holes.

I've got a plate that is drilled and tapped for Holley main and air bleeds . makes drilling jets safe, quick and easy .. you can borrow it any time you want .. I can make ya one for Merc .. err ... alka-seltzer jets ifin ya ever want to drill them yourself .. instead of having someone else do it and leave you bewildered as to how they got that way ...

[rude tim]

I don't really have any skin in the "carb jet" discussion here..... BUT I do know a thing or 2 about fuel injectors. And one thing that I do know is that if you use the wrong cleaning fluid in an ultrasonic while cleaning, you can actually eat away the pintle holes, creating spray pattern and flow issues. (I'm talking about a 10 minute ultrasonic session). No cleaners with abrasive materials here. (by the way, you would be suprised what is all considered abrasive, most cleaners you find are)

Another example of this is ETEC injectors not flowing enough fuel. If you don't know already the ETEC injector contains its own metal on metal fuel pump of sorts. Fuel system cleaners, dirt, water etc, will wear these to the point that they will stop pumping almost completely.

Again, I'm not taking either side here, but I do know that you may be surprised at what can all wear out from something as simple as fuel, or fuel system cleaners.

Blake

Not trying to creat an argument but correct me if I am wrong. An injector has real small holes that have fuel pushed through them at pressure and a carb has jets with a larger hole and the fuel is moved through that hole by vacuum. Wouldn’t you see more erosion in a smaller hole under pressure than a larger hole under vacuum?

[Smalltownbassin]

Not trying to creat an argument but correct me if I am wrong. An injector has real small holes that have fuel pushed through them at pressure and a carb has jets with a larger hole and the fuel is moved through that hole by vacuum. Wouldn’t you see more erosion in a smaller hole under pressure than a larger hole under vacuum?

Ive been following this post for weeks! Im always learning from you fellas, even if its in the "meh" category it's still good stuff. Tim, i only quoted you because i was asking myself the same question until i related it to something i deal with daily in a different application. Without thinking in terms of "pressure" & "vacuum" because they muddy up the water, think more about the volume of material moved through the orifice. After all, even a carb bowl can be considered to be under pressure if there is less (vacuum) on the other side. All a vacuum is is a pressure differential right? Anyway, back to my stupid, troublesome, heap of scrap metal i call a 3d printer. This is a more extreme example of your comparison between a carb jet under vacuum and high pressure injector. Im always running high abrasive material like GF or CF that are determined to destroy the nozzle asap. I typically use a 0.6mm orifice but often, for more precise work, use a 0.2mm. This plastic is squeezed through at extremely high pressure but much less so with the larger orifice. Ive noticed that no matter what size nozzle im using, the abrasive wear is the same because the distance traveled is the same. This is how im thinking when it comes to your question. It seems like the only big factor is the amount of material moved. The more abrasive material is moved through an orifice the more it wears the orifice. Has nothing to do with whether its pushed or pulled through. Dont take my word for it though. Its just a thought. Chaz will gladly tell me where im wrong but thats what makes this fun.

[keith scotton]

I dont think he seen a water jet cutter of course that usually has some kind of grit in it. Wont leave a long reply have been told he is way behind in his work and should stay off here and get to work.
Enjoy Life Keith

[flabum1017]

Not trying to creat an argument but correct me if I am wrong. An injector has real small holes that have fuel pushed through them at pressure and a carb has jets with a larger hole and the fuel is moved through that hole by vacuum. Wouldn’t you see more erosion in a smaller hole under pressure than a larger hole under vacuum?

An injector also has a pintle that is constantly hammering against a seat.......... yeah, that tends to wear things out...........

[Chaz]

I dont think he seen a water jet cutter of course that usually has some kind of grit in it. Wont leave a long reply have been told he is way behind in his work and should stay off here and get to work.
Enjoy Life Keith

I see you haven't learned to post pictures of your perfectly eroded to .011 over jets yet ...

This isn't about me .. it's about your preposterous claims ....

But until you sign my pay check .. you have nothing to say about my shop or work ethic .. Even if you did .. take a number .. form two lines ..

I have a guy in town with a high -definition plasma, another with a laser, and a water jet that operates in excess of 90,000 psi, with just water or with a garnet mixture. Your carburetor on the other hand works on a 1.5" depression .. see the difference ..

Smalltown ... I think we covered "abrasive media" back on the first page .. "Extrude Hone" .. and in Keith's home town they sell "Extrude Hone gas" right at the pump ..
For the rest of us, gasoline is made from a petroleum base. I would tend to put it in the family of lubricant's , not abrasives.

There is no "high pressure" in nature. Yes the barometer moves up and down , but nothing all of sudden to where you walk around a corner and your lungs fill with air and you die because you can't exhale. For the most part, we live at 1 bar or 14.503 lbs/sq inch . In the carburetor world, nothing moves until an artificial low (intake stroke) is created. It takes the .. Venturi effect or Bernoulli's principal to "pull" metered fuel up the hill .. no pressure involved ...

[flabum1017]

I see you haven't learned to post pictures of your perfectly eroded to .011 over jets yet ...

This isn't about me .. it's about your preposterous claims ....

But until you sign my pay check .. you have nothing to say about my shop or work ethic .. Even if you did .. take a number .. form two lines ..

I have a guy in town with a high -definition plasma, another with a laser, and a water jet that operates in excess of 90,000 psi, with just water or with a garnet mixture. Your carburetor on the other hand works on a 1.5" depression .. see the difference ..

Smalltown ... I think we covered "abrasive media" back on the first page .. "Extrude Hone" .. and in Keith's home town they sell "Extrude Hone gas" right at the pump ..
For the rest of us, gasoline is made from a petroleum base. I would tend to put it in the family of lubricant's , not abrasives.

There is no "high pressure" in nature. Yes the barometer moves up and down , but nothing all of sudden to where you walk around a corner and your lungs fill with air and you die because you can't exhale. For the most part, we live at 1 bar or 14.503 lbs/sq inch . In the carburetor world, nothing moves until an artificial low (intake stroke) is created. It takes the .. Venturi effect or Bernoulli's principal to "pull" metered fuel up the hill .. no pressure involved ...

Vacuum sucks, eh Chaz?