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  1. #1
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    Reeds.. single stage vs 2 stage???

    we all seen single stage reeds. Both steel and fiber. And the big company that sells the 2 stage reeds. Advertising that the 1st stage is used at lower rpms and that both open at higher rpms. But what about some real world data? Of flow and sealing capabilities?

    Now... GO

  2. #2
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    TDR and or Carsons reeds.
    Boysens are a flash in the pan

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  4. #3
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    My CCM's have worked great in my 200. Very smooth on bottom end
    1990 Shadow bass boat w/ 2.4 200 Merc. Totally resto'd boat and love it!

  5. #4
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    Another vote foe Carson reeds. I just wasted more time on Boysens website trying to figure out what they offered for my motor then it took me to order them from Chris. You call and he actually answers. Very smart, friendly guy that will answer your questions.

    Lapped my cages, put it all back together and talk about a night and day difference. Cold and warm starts are much smoother, and the idle is smooth as silk now. That and the thing just screams coming out of the hole as well on the top end. I bought stuffers from him too but they did not fit without some work. Chris told me this would happen and did not want to sell them to me because they did not fit as is. I told him I did not care and wanted them anyways. I will install them this winter and maybe do some other work while I have it opened.

  6. #5
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    Gained 75 rpm with Boyesen, years of use on them.
    Replaced them after 500 hrs.
    Also have CC reeds and stuffers. Hopefully try a couple different cage and reed combination on the next one. Can't do apples to apples on the same cage but it should still be interesting.


    Originally Posted by racer
    OMC reed test results (non race)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    First a little about the engine used for the test, it is a 183 cubic inch production based engine basically built to ODBA pro carb rules minus compression and a modified intake. It was tested with 155 psi compression and untouched intake manifolds, reed cages were lapped for inproved seal. Stock factory ignition except for a race flywheel. Mid section used was stock except for water routing needed for dyno use.

    Dyno is a superflow with windyn data, room is about 12X18. Exhaust is thru a large muffler (city req.) and water supply from a 10K gallon tank, I thus can control water feed in volume and pressure to the engine cooling. Air parameters for the test were very close.

    A base line beyond test parameters was established before the high compression heads and modified intake were removed, in this trim it made 400.5 horsepower after testing was complete it was retested to verify condition of engine and it made 399.4. After each reed test compression and leakdown were performed and they remained very consistent. If a test was done on a different day, the previous test was rerun to verify accuracy, no change more than .5 horsepower was noted.

    Tests were run using 110 race fuel and 40 to 1 oil. Tests were controlled to the best of my ability including engine temp, I am including one run at a lower temp so you can see the difference it makes. All reeds were cycled thru different rpm ranges to verify reed durability, then a minimum of three pulls were performed.

    First reeds tested stock prodution steel reeds with stops.
    Peak torque 286.9 @5800
    Average from 6000 to 7500
    Torque 264.6 HP 338.8 Pounds fuel hour 197.7 BSFC .606
    Average from 6500 to 7500
    Torque 258.8 HP 343.6 Fuel 191.2 BSFC .577
    Engine temp 128 degrees Horsepower fall off from peak to 7500 -19.6HP
    EGT 1090

    Second reeds Boysen 166 no stops
    Peak torque 298.3 @5500/5800
    Average from 6000 to 7500
    Torque 275.2 HP 352.8 Fuel 212.7 BSFC .625
    Average from 6500 to 7500
    Torque 269.1 HP 358.2 Fuel 207.2 BSFC .599
    Engine temp 129 degrees HP fall off peak to 7500 -4.2HP EGT 1070

    Third Chris Carson .022 yellow with stops at 128 degree temp
    Peak torque 283.2 @5600
    Average from 6000 to 7500
    Torque 264.1 HP 338.5 Fuel 196.6 BSFC .603
    Average from 6500 to 7500
    Torque 258.9 HP 344.5 Fuel 196.6 BSFC .592
    Fall off 14.8 Hp EGT 1090

    Same reeds at 119 temp
    Peak torque 288.2 @5700
    6000 to 7500
    Torque 267.7 HP 343.2 Fuel 191.8 BSFC .577
    6500 to 7500
    Torque 262.4 HP 349.3 Fuel 192.4 BSFC .569
    Fall off Peak to 7500 -11.6 EGT 1090
    So you can see temp also effects these engines

    Fourth TDR .022 white with stops
    Peak torque 291.2 @5600
    Average from 6000 to 7500
    Torque 267.8 HP 343.2 Fuel 202 BSFC .615
    Average 6500 to 7500
    Torque 261.9 HP 348.4 Fuel 198 BSFC .591
    Engine temp 126
    Fall off peak to 7500 -7.8 EGT 1090

    Of note,
    All averages done by the computor, accel rate same for all and controlled by the computor at 600 rpm gain per second
    All reeds in tack after test but Boysen had a few slightly open, causing a slight spit on restart
    Best idle quality and starting Carson and TDR
    Loudest intake noise Boysen

    I am going to try and test thinner race type reeds on cut cages once I get some time including some sent that did not meet this tests parameters, one already tested. The above are reeds that should live well in every day use. Pictures to follow in a few days.

    I would like to thank both Tony and Chris for their participation in this test. Total time involved 16 Hours two guys, fuel burned to much.
    Last edited by FMP; 10-27-2020 at 01:18 AM.

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  8. #6
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    Ive had best results on my 56in omc w/boyesens. Best reaction on throttle input and best power/rpms.
    Everything same except ccms reeds and sensitivity is gone.

    Sorry! Best was 0.4mm malossi karbonit monoleaf, opened gages.But it wont last long.
    Last edited by Hupiveneilijš; 10-27-2020 at 03:18 AM.

  9. #7
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    I gots me sum new reeds comin next week , 2 different sets , ill post it up when I get em in and change em , I have Chris's in now , which in all my motors , but I hear the ones coming could possibly be better. Different material, once I figure out how they all compare ill b glad to share , worse or better

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  11. #8
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    I'm is kinda dumb wen it comes to thanks like dis .. so splain it to me mo bedda ..

    When the piston and rod are approaching BDC the transfer ports have been open for aprox. 55 to 60* which has depleted the crankcase pressure , close to zero.

    The highest intake vacuum signal will occur from when the piston sweeps away from BDC until it reaches 90* ABDC at which point the piston will slow until it stops at TDC.

    What phenomena takes place along the path , that will pull the second reed off of it's seat , instead of just open the smaller top leaf farther ... ?

    Discuss ...

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  13. #9
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    At high rpm 5-6k+ lowest case pressure occurs 300-330-360į, highest reed lift correlates during this event.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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Views:	191 
Size:	76.4 KB 
ID:	476099  
    Last edited by FMP; 10-29-2020 at 04:16 PM.

  14. #10
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    RPM is irrelevant ...

    300 - 330 degree's from where ..

    If you mean 330 degree ATDC , you missed the peak piston speed by 30 to 60 degrees .. which as I already stated as being 90* ABDC or if it helps you understand .. 270 ATDC .
    By the time it makes it it another 60* to 330* it is almost parked and producing very little vacuum signal ... or minimal flow ..
    Which once again puts you 180* from reality. I can always count on you 100% of the time for getting it bass-akwards ..

    And once again you avoided the question ---->


    What phenomena takes place along the path , that will pull the second reed off of it's seat , instead of just open the smaller top leaf farther ... ?

  15. #11
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    Take ya finger nail......lift the reed off the seat..... the one with the less pull that don't break WINNs....If boysens.....cut the small conition bridge on the top reeds.......then they settle down with out warp......

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  17. #12
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    Rate of pressure drop and total gradient is dependent on rpm ie piston speed. It's only an ETEC ,that's crankcase not plenum.

    I could send you some results if you care to learn
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Screenshot_2020-10-29 Slide 1 - reedFSIv3_distCVG pdf.png 
Views:	195 
Size:	194.3 KB 
ID:	476098  
    Last edited by FMP; 10-29-2020 at 04:07 PM.

  18. #13
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    Ran boyesen for 10 years never had a issue

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  20. #14
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    So, piston speed will lift the second stage reed............. meaning....at higher rpm's the piston is pulling more vacuum(intake charge) to lift the thicker petal? Am I understanding that right?

    This is just for knowledge for me.............


    I do see what Chaz is saying. If vacuum signal increases, wont that just cause the more responsive petal ....aka....the thinner one......to just open up more and leave the other one still sitting flat.

    I guess someone needs to do a test with some compressed air or even a vacuum scenario(if possible)and video it. It would be cool to see it.
    Last edited by keefallan; 10-29-2020 at 03:10 AM.

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  22. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by keefallan View Post
    So, piston speed will lift the second stage reed............. meaning....at higher rpm's the piston is pulling more vacuum(intake charge) to lift the thicker petal? Am I understanding that right?

    This is just for knowledge for me.............




    I do see what Chaz is saying. If vacuum signal increases, wont that just cause the more responsive petal ....aka....the thinner one......to just open up more and leave the other one still sitting flat.

    I guess someone needs to do a test with some compressed air or even a vacuum scenario(if possible)and video it. It would be cool to see it.
    Im with you. I'd like to know as well. I do have a theory that i'll vomit up real quick. "Deflection" is the magic word i'll use. Using the engineering principal of deflection i can see how 2 stages will work. The first stage (i'll call it the low RPM stage), Is less resistant to deflection. As vacuum velocity & pressure increases, the first stage opens further. This is where resistance to deflection happens. The further the material deflects (bends) the more resistant it is to further deflection. Thats where the second stage begins to work. Because the second stage is still in a neutral position, at some point it becomes less resistant to deflection that the first stage that has already reached its maximum flexural capabilities and very resistant to further deflection. I would guess that the second stage only slightly opens to satisfy the vacuum pressure demands but it should definitely open at some point. Otherwise all you would have is a bunch of broken first stage petals. This theory is only based on the assumption that volume and pressure require it. You guys would definitely know more than me though. Im just basing this on a simple engineering principal. I also run CCM reeds and love them.
    "The character of a man can be easily judged by how he treats those who can do nothing for him"

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