Coating piston tops with a ceramic coating

[powerabout]

Ok guys here is why you coat the ring lands. It is to coat that little bit of aluminum above the rings
that has more wear on the exhaust side than any where else on the piston.
You don't coat inside the lands heavy and I have never had any problems with the ring clearance.

I have never advertised what coating I use on the domes but I can assure you it works to even out
the heat and eliminate hot spots. If you like ceramic on the domes and combustion chambers and can tune for
it go ahead but remember that heat has to go somewhere and out the exhaust would be ideal but how much heat
are you diverting to the rings? 30 years of doing this has taught me a little.

Hi Rodney

just wondering, if the piston rejects the heat how does it get back to the rings?

thanks

[Chaz]

Ok guys here is why you coat the ring lands. It is to coat that little bit of aluminum above the rings
that has more wear on the exhaust side than any where else on the piston.
You don't coat inside the lands heavy and I have never had any problems with the ring clearance.

I have never advertised what coating I use on the domes but I can assure you it works to even out
the heat and eliminate hot spots. If you like ceramic on the domes and combustion chambers and can tune for
it go ahead but remember that heat has to go somewhere and out the exhaust would be ideal but how much heat
are you diverting to the rings? 30 years of doing this has taught me a little.

People who are striving to be seen as a "dominant voice or the be all , end all " always seem to press the issue on how many decades they have been doing a certain task rather than let their experience in the field speak for itself.
More times than not , unless you bring in sharp young minds , a guy doing something 30 years quit learning anything new 25 years ago .. Food for thought.

If you got a special secret sauce, that's just short of marvelous darling .. saying that "it works to even out heat and eliminate hot spots"..

My opinion .......
Welp , being a barrier they all tend to dissipate heat into the crown a bit more slowly. As for eliminating hot spots, those are caused by the lighter end's of the fuel auto igniting in the quench area. You have to deal with that , and your hot spots will no longer be .. as already stated , coating will broaden to tuning window.

Your opinion ...
( knew I seen this somewhere before, right off the Tech~Line web site)

• Evenly distributes heat, reduces hot spots, aids in flame travel and combustion.

Then in a manor to instill fear .. "well if you want to use ceramics" ...


You say it like it's a bad thing . I get it , just say .. all parts need to be sent to me because I know a secret .. I could respect that better than putting doubt in the minds of the member's of this board ..

I have never met Bud in person. But there is a reason I call him my uncle , over the years .. we have talked about everything from child raisin , the world today , best BBQ , to everything in between .. we have done swippin and swappin parts for that long as well .. the last thing I would ever think ,is he would steer me in the wrong direction on what product to use where ..

Bud sent me a Yeti cup about 5 years ago that he powder coated my color blue and my logo in silver flake . It my "shop cup" , I'm to say , but it's been dropped , vibrated off the bench , etc. Still in great shape , even the small dings still have stayed bonded.

Those pistons (no run time) he posted with the rubbed off coating , shiny aluminum underneath , or randomly chipped off are really pretty pathetic . We are all human and make mistakes , but those look like they were haphazardly prepped , hastily shot , cured and sent out the door without even looking at them . Somebody paid good money to have them done .. and redone .. Sad

The other person is Jason @ TechLine .. he certainly is not going to sell me the wrong product .. or not tell me the proper way to use it.
I'm a stickler about getting the testing fact's about a product. He said , read here

--> https://techlinecoatings.com/product-info-2/

and you don't understand something , feel free to call me back .. you know , being treated like you would want to be treated .

Pistons are round at the top . The skirts are cam ground , or barrel shaped at the skirts . The skirt never goes round. It would be foolish to guide the base of the piston anywhere other than along the thrust face.
As the piston comes up to temp. and starts dragging the the area above the top ring, there is either too much piston to wall clearance allowing the piston to rock over excessively ... or there is not enough cam built into the piston at or above the wristpin centerline.
I mentioned .. tapering the area above the top ring as a fix for either above issue.
I have no problem coating the area above the top land . Even between lands if that makes ya happy. Just gotta take to time to wrap the lands with string to keep them dry. I like C-Lube .. spec sheet says it's good to 1500*

Ring lands ... I went over the puddling issues in the corners that are more than likely going to develop , if you use anything bigger than an air-brush .. I don't care who you are .. Narrow x deep cut ... come on .
Any part that has the job of sealing a flat finely finished surface against another flat surface doesn't need to be subjected to the prep work it takes to make the coating stick . Todays rings already have a coating on the back and radial wall's to keep them from rusting .

But the real reason you don't coat the ring lands ...

Is because the heat of combustion (BTU's) is ...

Partially sent to do work.

Partially dissipate into the head and out thru the coolant .

Partially out of the exhaust.

And the remainder that is absorbed into the piston is either transferred into the oil wedge between the skirt and cyl wall .

Or the majority of heat in the crown , is transferred to the rings , thru the lands and into the cyl walls . If you block that pathway .. you only have the fuel charge under the piston left for removal of heat .. not a good move .

[powerabout]

With less heat going into the piston the less heat the rings need to transfer.
Thin rings dont seem to cause a problem so i cant see they are doing too much in the way of transferring heat, sure some but what percentage?

[Rodney Nance]

Chaz I don't know you but you seem to think you have coatings figured out and thats fine.
Many years ago I went and worked at G&L Coatings which later became Tech Line.
At the time a guy named Leonard owned it and developed the coatings and processes that many still use.
I took offence to your statement that people like me quit learning about 25 years ago.
If that was the case I would still be using the same coatings as you are finding out about
now instead of doing my own research mostly with the karting guys and finding out what a 2 stroke wants.
My comment that if you want to use ceramics was not meant to install fear as you said but I really
meant there is more than one way of doing something and any one is welcome to do whatever.
And I never said anybody had to send me anything.

[John800]

To Rodney and hstream1:

what are both of your thoughts on coating combustion chambers? Less important than pistons but still beneficial? Would you treat an atv or snowmobile 2 stroke any different than an outboard because of the difference in cooling system? (Closed loop recirculating vs the endless cold water supply an outboard enjoys)

And, how thick are the coatings you both use on domes and chambers?

[keefallan]

I agree with Bud. This post was never meant to take anything away from a man's business. I am doing this thread to get all the uneducated guys such as myself(in the world of coatings) into this field of engine building...........either sending your work out to people such as Bud or doing it in house. Bud was kind enough to chime in and answer my questions.....or anyone else who has coatings as part of their personal business. I am seeking understanding in the process and the little things etc.

This thread was meant to encourage people to get involved in this area..........because there is power to be made here in your motor and even strum up business for the business guy as well......but not to take away business from anyone.

[InjectorService]

I'm not sure where you guys are getting that someone is trying to take business away, I definitely don't read it that way. Anyhow there is a lot of good info on here that we should keep going. Maybe this is a pretty broad question, but if you were to fully coat a motor, how many coatings would you require. 1 for the piston skirts, one for the piston dome, are there different ones for the exhaust and combustion chamber, or would they be the same as the piston dome coating.

What about colors? I see some candy colored piston pictures floating around from time to time. Is there a difference in the color, or is that just how the manufacture specifies?

[FMP]

...It's that candy coated chocolate so tell me when I ask...when you eat your smarties do you eat the red ones last.

[keefallan]

Mr. Injector Service(since I dont know who to call you), I thought either Chaz or Bud answered your question(better than I am gonna do right now) way back in the beginning of this thread. I remember hearing at least three.........1) for the skirts.. a dry film 2) high temp coating for the top and 3) and oil shedding coating for under the piston and connecting rods.......or maybe thats what I remember studying in my research elsewheres. I think there's another coating for lubricating the bearings.........but dont hold me to that.

As for the taking business away comment.......I never said anyone was. But Bud was nice enough to answer on here. I felt like I needed to say something about my intentions since he made the statement that he did. He has to walk a fine line and I get that........just as you do with your injector services. Its not that there was any wrong doing at all. But if a business owner is nice enough to comment on things pertaining to his business, then I am just doing my part to keep questions aimed in a general direction. If the business man chooses to share things on the matter, then that is completely up to him. Just my thoughts on things. Back to the questions at hand..........coatings!!!

[keefallan]

...It's that candy coated chocolate so tell me when I ask...when you eat your smarties do you eat the red ones last.

Nothing but funny right there................

[Chaz]

Chaz I don't know you but you seem to think you have coatings figured out and thats fine.
Many years ago I went and worked at G&L Coatings which later became Tech Line.
At the time a guy named Leonard owned it and developed the coatings and processes that many still use.
I took offence to your statement that people like me quit learning about 25 years ago.
If that was the case I would still be using the same coatings as you are finding out about
now instead of doing my own research mostly with the karting guys and finding out what a 2 stroke wants.
My comment that if you want to use ceramics was not meant to install fear as you said but I really
meant there is more than one way of doing something and any one is welcome to do whatever.
And I never said anybody had to send me anything.

Rodnut ,
Here's what I think I have figured out . I got everything right except for the grievances listed above .. I'll address them now ...

In the last two decades , you have received .0091% (thats less than a tenth of one percent) thanks on your total post count. If your as smart as you think you are , you haven't done much in proving it to others.

I've got a secret , must not go as far as it use to. My mother watched it on our black and white round screen TV set when I was a kid ..

I'm not in the coating business , nor do i have asperations to be. I have been doing my motors , and motors I machine and assemble for others. The people who have wanted their stuff done .. I send them Uncle Bud's way .. He's in that business .

I stated I know of only two people in that industry that I trust. I'm friends with Buzz (Artie) owner of TOEFCO . Been a couple decades, maybe longer. Strictly about open wheel drag cars , never about buiz ..

I mentioned that I bought strictly from the "new" Tech Line , as well as the old. You quote their somewhat "dated" web literature ... I guess things must not have changed much on your end. I know its a secret .. I won't tell ..

Lenard .. as in Lenard Warren .. ? Yea I met him at the PRI show .. long ago.
How's his half-brother Jim doin ..? Wow dude, surf's up and it's like totally gnarly to the max ...

Your self centeredness makes you think I was talking about you. I said : unless someone in buiz hires bright young minds .. or works with skilled craftsmen ..

One might make a ton of money hiring low paid flunkys , but will never learn any more than they know right now. I say that from my personal experience .. I'm only as good as my teachers made me .. Today I pray to remain teachable ..
Anyone who thinks they taught themselves everything they know .. has a fool for a teacher ...

I read it a few times before I pulled the trigger ... Welllll .. if your gonna use ceramics ... again you said that like its a bad thing ...

But you just wait , next time I speak to Jason .. Duuddeeee , why don't you sell me the new improved $hiz like your disgruntled X employee has .. Ppppfffttttt

You don't have to ask anyone to send you parts to coat. Stating ..Shucks , I been coatin parts with my spa~cial souse now fer pert near 30 years .. Use that cheap *** ifin ya want to ... Oh no , the sky is fallin..
Is a back door sales pitch ifin I ever seed one ...

Just my opinion ...
You jumped on here with a bit of a knee-jerk reaction right after Bud posted the pictures of a "couple jobs from a competitor or maybe even two" --->

Chaz = startin to think, you might have had a hand in doin ... well you know

Mind if I call ya ..... Chip ?

[powerabout]

There nothing ceramic in ceramic coating is there?

[keefallan]

Good question Power!!! The answer to that may be like Mcdonalds giving up the ingredients to the special sauce on a Big Mac..........coating companies secrets............SSSHHHH!!!! Maybe Bud or Charlie or Rod knows. I sure do not.

[HStream1]

Why Isnt there? If it doesnt consist of ceramic properties how can it be Formulated, Branded, patented and sold as ceramic coatings? Im not going to dive into the chemical make up of ceramics because the are more than one type of ceramic. Actually there are 7 different Types. Its not as simple as A, B, C. Different chemical compositions result in different Thermal barrier properties. I think what confuses people is when they think of ceramic they think of Earthware, Stoneware, Glass or Porcelain (i.e Crystalline or Non Crystalline Ceramics). Thats simply not the case. For me to sit here and try to break down each and every type would cause my head to explode and your's trying to read it. Im by no means a chemical engineer so ill leave that to them. But before i decided to get into Ceramic Coatings i felt I owed it to myself to have a Thorough understanding of its Make up capabilities and why it works.

There nothing ceramic in ceramic coating is there?

[Merc 2.5]

Hey bud. I gots me a new set pistons still n box. Whats it cost a feller to get em coated? Thanks u can pm me if its better