merc 2.5 injectors

[Onetime]

Nice! Appears you have it

[seansbaja1982]

Is there a Bosch part number for the pink tip injectors?

[HStream1]

There is no software for the 11350 ECU Only the 849849. Sorry I didnt cover that but thank you for bringing it to my attention. The 11350 Has a replaceable Chip that can be programmed But there is no software that can be used at the track to the best of my knowledge. The 849849 ECU has a Potted Chip and cant be removed. So YES Software is required!! Now How readily available is that mercury Software???

Unless you have the software for it!

[Onetime]

Probably not at all even though it’s not used on anything Mercury any more, I think!

Anything for the Motorola systems?

[PanRonnie]

Probably not at all even though it’s not used on anything Mercury any more, I think!

Anything for the Motorola systems?

There is but i was quoted over €10000,-for the software about 10 years ago
and you would still have a prodution ecu not live tunable!
It,s cheaper to go to an aftermarket ecu and will have way more options and capability,s

[rjdubiel]

Can someone enlighten me on tuning the Merc boxes (Brucatto or PPE). Can you add fuel where you want on those or is it only a % across the table?

With a Brucato you can add or remove fuel at any RPM and any Load (manifold pressure, in the image below 980 is WOT). The fuel table is a set of logarithmic scale numbers for 24 rpm columns and 16 load signals. So if you want more fuel at 8K and half throttle you can do that but adding 1 to the existing number in the cell you are targeting to increase fuel at that load signal and RPM 1%, or 10 for 10%. Very simple actually, but putting it in practice on the river is a little more challenging and I will find out this spring! I assume Powers set up is basically the same but have not seen it in person.

[CI STV]

With a Brucato you can add or remove fuel at any RPM and any Load (manifold pressure, in the image below 980 is WOT). The fuel table is a set of logarithmic scale numbers for 24 rpm columns and 16 load signals. So if you want more fuel at 8K and half throttle you can do that but adding 1 to the existing number in the cell you are targeting to increase fuel at that load signal and RPM 1%, or 10 for 10%. Very simple actually, but putting it in practice on the river is a little more challenging and I will find out this spring! I assume Powers set up is basically the same but have not seen it in person.

This is how I imagined the Brucato worked. Pretty simple speed density setup.
But I would only mess with changing the fuel map if I had a datalog that showed me what the state of fueling is at each RPM/MAP, so that corresponding adjustments can be made to fuel map.
Otherwise, you may as well stick to guessing what the engine wants and either use a screwdriver to adjust the manual pots in the unit to tweak the main fuel curve, part throttle, idle, etc., or use the “Steam wheel” to tweak just the Main circuit.
Since there are so many factors that affect optimum fuel delivery as one of these engines swings through its very wide RPM range, all you can do with that methodology is try to get it to make max power without melting down, so you still have to rely on “old-school” methods, like reading plugs and piston tops, which really only gives you a snap shot of what it was doing when you killed the power at a specific high rpm.

Compared to tuning a modern car with HP Tuners or EFI Live, this is very basic, since the ECU on these 2.5 E;I engines is really only an “FCU”, as they really only control fueling, whereas a true ECU controls fueling, timing, camshaft phasing, etc., through a myriad of tables working in sync, and in the case of a modern auto trans, a corresponding TCM that uses “torque calculations” based on MAP and/or MAF to generate shift timing, shift speed, pressures, etc. Not to mention a BCM, EBCM, FPCU, etc., etc., all working over the same network. That CAN stuff can drive you nuts. Don’t ask how I know.

BUT, at least with HP Tuners and EFI Live, you have the ability to datalog and then use “histograms” based on a tuning tool calculation of what the engine needs, using MAP/MAF and a wide band sensor, which histograms you can then cut and paste into your tuning tables to tweak the fuel curve.

[25two.stroke]

This is how I imagined the Brucato worked. Pretty simple speed density setup.
But I would only mess with changing the fuel map if I had a datalog that showed me what the state of fueling is at each RPM/MAP, so that corresponding adjustments can be made to fuel map.
Otherwise, you may as well stick to guessing what the engine wants and either use a screwdriver to adjust the manual pots in the unit to tweak the main fuel curve, part throttle, idle, etc., or use the “Steam wheel” to tweak just the Main circuit.
Since there are so many factors that affect optimum fuel delivery as one of these engines swings through its very wide RPM range, all you can do with that methodology is try to get it to make max power without melting down, so you still have to rely on “old-school” methods, like reading plugs and piston tops, which really only gives you a snap shot of what it was doing when you killed the power at a specific high rpm.

Compared to tuning a modern car with HP Tuners or EFI Live, this is very basic, since the ECU on these 2.5 E;I engines is really only an “FCU”, as they really only control fueling, whereas a true ECU controls fueling, timing, camshaft phasing, etc., through a myriad of tables working in sync, and in the case of a modern auto trans, a corresponding TCM that uses “torque calculations” based on MAP and/or MAF to generate shift timing, shift speed, pressures, etc. Not to mention a BCM, EBCM, FPCU, etc., etc., all working over the same network. That CAN stuff can drive you nuts. Don’t ask how I know.

BUT, at least with HP Tuners and EFI Live, you have the ability to datalog and then use “histograms” based on a tuning tool calculation of what the engine needs, using MAP/MAF and a wide band sensor, which histograms you can then cut and paste into your tuning tables to tweak the fuel curve.

You can datalog with the Brucato too and I assume Powers has that ability too. Brucato's is quite limited though, and they only have the ability to log EGT not A/F via O2, so its not ideal. And I think Brucato's logs are limited to 30 sec. There must be some way to modify their Excel program but I have not messed with it yet. No time. Maybe someone has here and figured out if they have certain things write-protected or not.

Anyway, back to the topic of this thread I've been reading it and not commenting, its quite interesting. But now I have to say I had ALL the same questions that have come up here. Instead of asking I've been getting all the stuff together to do some tests myself.

As far as the Bosch crankcase injectors go, I have a few sets of injectors all ordered throughout the years but they range in age from 20 to 30 years to last year. I also ordered one of those cheapo sets from china last year just to see whats up. My intent is to flow test them all under different load conditions to see how the different variations perform.

I did install the set of chinaman injectors on a motor right when I got them and here is what I found:
- Yes the wire connector is different than bosch. The injector set came with 6 pigtails that were correct for the injector. I took those pigtails and a lazer injection ECU harness and made myself a harness, it worked great.
- Out of the box the hose on the injectors were all different lengths and didn't fit the barb right, so I replaced the hoses.
- Once on the engine and hooked up they ran seemingly like the bosch ones. This was no flow testing or cleaning. I was surprised. I only ran them up to 4000 rpm, but they performed fine to there.

My next step is I'll be flow testing them next to bosch and will post some pics. Keep in mind this is a new set ordered 5 moths ago on ebay, it was like $250 for the set of 6.

[25two.stroke]

Here's a picture of the spray pattern on the 0 280 150 036 vs the replacement I'm working on.

Did you ever get a replacement Bosch/Merc injector to continue your tests? I think I have a lone one I can lend you if you need it....for the sake of all of us on here knowing.
You and I are workin on the same stuff but I know you have been doin it way longer than me.

[PanRonnie]

i made some screenshots from the map i was told corresponds with this particular intake setup&nbsp;<br>to explain in short what you see&nbsp;<br>Group 1 is the main fuel table and is cylinder 1 and 2<br>group 2 is a percentage of group 1 and is cylinder 3 and 4<br>group 3 is a percentage of group 1 and is cylinder 5 and 6<br><br>if you look at the compensations you see fueling going up towards the higher rpms for the cylinders with the longer intake ducts&nbsp;<br>i am guessing mercury did this to have 3 high torque points instead of just one higher peak with group 3 the longest duty cycle<br>to try and tune this through piston tops would be a nightmare&nbsp;<br>the software has a provision for EGTs but how would they do that&nbsp;<br>the only thing i can come up with is the exhaust cover bolts being drilled through but as CTV mentioned it,s not the ideal method for tuning&nbsp;<br>the innovate LC2 would have a response time of 25 Miliseconds typical&nbsp;<br>at 10000 rpm that would be 4 crank rotations much better than thermocouplse wich works with seconds&nbsp;<br>a combination of the 2 still seems the best approach&nbsp;<br>so either install an aftermarket ecu first as a datalogger or do a set up as CTV with an AIM logger both lamda and EGT

[Onetime]

Maybe it’s just me but that flow pattern on the left injector, which I think is the Bosch, doesn’t look good. Don’t remember them looking like that. Engines didn’t run right with injectors having that type of pattern.

Here's a picture of the spray pattern on the 0 280 150 036 vs the replacement I'm working on.

[CI STV]

You can datalog with the Brucato too and I assume Powers has that ability too. Brucato's is quite limited though, and they only have the ability to log EGT not A/F via O2, so its not ideal. And I think Brucato's logs are limited to 30 sec. There must be some way to modify their Excel program but I have not messed with it yet. No time. Maybe someone has here and figured out if they have certain things write-protected or not.

Anyway, back to the topic of this thread I've been reading it and not commenting, its quite interesting. But now I have to say I had ALL the same questions that have come up here. Instead of asking I've been getting all the stuff together to do some tests myself.

As far as the Bosch crankcase injectors go, I have a few sets of injectors all ordered throughout the years but they range in age from 20 to 30 years to last year. I also ordered one of those cheapo sets from china last year just to see whats up. My intent is to flow test them all under different load conditions to see how the different variations perform.

I did install the set of chinaman injectors on a motor right when I got them and here is what I found:
- Yes the wire connector is different than bosch. The injector set came with 6 pigtails that were correct for the injector. I took those pigtails and a lazer injection ECU harness and made myself a harness, it worked great.
- Out of the box the hose on the injectors were all different lengths and didn't fit the barb right, so I replaced the hoses.
- Once on the engine and hooked up they ran seemingly like the bosch ones. This was no flow testing or cleaning. I was surprised. I only ran them up to 4000 rpm, but they performed fine to there.

My next step is I'll be flow testing them next to bosch and will post some pics. Keep in mind this is a new set ordered 5 moths ago on ebay, it was like $250 for the set of 6.

Thanks. I did not know that the Brucato software allowed data logging. 30 seconds would be more than enough time to do a log for a drag race setup.
I’m datalogging with my AiM MXL2, and that data is worth its weight in gold. It’s not the same as using HPT, but it still tells me what the water pressure, fuel pressure, EGTs, trim position, engine height, and a bunch of other things, including GPS speed and RPM (which I can use to calculate prop slip) at every point during a run. No more guesswork!
In fact, one of the reasons I restarted the discussion on this thread is because I noticed on one of my recent logs that all of a sudden, my EGTs were varying by 30-40 degrees bank to bank, with the right bank being higher at high speed and lower at idle/off idle. So, when someone (Pan Ronnie, I think) mentioned in another thread that it could be varying fuel delivery through the injectors, I started looking at buying an extra set, whilst I sent the current ones off to get them cleaned/balanced.
But that idea died when I checked Crowley’s website and saw the Merc/Bosch replacements were like $240 each, and I realized that it would cost me another 30% on top of that to ship them and pay import tax.
So I’m now considering buying a injector cleaner/balancer, since I can use that for my other projects too.
BTW: As I mentioned before, in response to a reference to “cheap, Chinese injectors”, that the SMP injectors seem to be of a good quality and are made in the U.S.A. at their South Carolina facility, according to the sources I’ve read. Not saying that makes them as good or better than Bosch, but they apparently aren’t Chinese.
Here’s a YouTube video that I came across :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IlfJyWhSL8&t=117s

[CI STV]

i made some screenshots from the map i was told corresponds with this particular intake setup&nbsp;<br>to explain in short what you see&nbsp;<br>Group 1 is the main fuel table and is cylinder 1 and 2<br>group 2 is a percentage of group 1 and is cylinder 3 and 4<br>group 3 is a percentage of group 1 and is cylinder 5 and 6<br><br>if you look at the compensations you see fueling going up towards the higher rpms for the cylinders with the longer intake ducts&nbsp;<br>i am guessing mercury did this to have 3 high torque points instead of just one higher peak with group 3 the longest duty cycle<br>to try and tune this through piston tops would be a nightmare&nbsp;<br>the software has a provision for EGTs but how would they do that&nbsp;<br>the only thing i can come up with is the exhaust cover bolts being drilled through but as CTV mentioned it,s not the ideal method for tuning&nbsp;<br>the innovate LC2 would have a response time of 25 Miliseconds typical&nbsp;<br>at 10000 rpm that would be 4 crank rotations much better than thermocouplse wich works with seconds&nbsp;<br>a combination of the 2 still seems the best approach&nbsp;<br>so either install an aftermarket ecu first as a datalogger or do a set up as CTV with an AIM logger both lamda and EGT

Thanks Ronnie. Say, you by chance feel like taking a Caribbean vacation anytime soon?

We’ve had that discussion on another thread, but for ease of reference on this one, my view is that it would be good if we could setup a wideband and datalog lambda. The newer Bosch 4.9 wideband sensors are very fast reacting, so I think it would give us some good data, once you could figure out the ideal lambda number for your motor wherever you’re placing the sensor.

On the topic of injectors, in response to something Chaz mentioned earlier, I think it probably doesn’t make that much of a difference where the injector is placed or positioned in the crankcase of a two-stroke, since it’s behind the reed valves and the mixture is literally subjected to the turbulence and pressure of the swinging crank before being squeezed into the intake ports. But in a conventional behind-the-intake-valve 4 stroke injector setup, there’s been plenty of testing that has established (by guys like Dutwieller) that placement and position of the injector in the intake port has a marked effect on top end and idle quality. I remember reading an article somewhere (National Dragster, probably) where he has picked up like 50hp on a race engine just by moving the injector upstream away from the valve, at the expense of idle quality.
All in all, I’m still amazed at how well these 2.5s work, given their simplicity. Maybe that’s why? My Drag motor with “special porting” from Diamond, with their gold slider intake on it, idles as good as any fishing motor, without loading up, etc. I found that out a few weeks ago when I had to tow a friend in, when the harness dropped of the ECU on his 1/4 Master.

[InjectorService]

Maybe it’s just me but that flow pattern on the left injector, which I think is the Bosch, doesn’t look good. Don’t remember them looking like that. Engines didn’t run right with injectors having that type of pattern.

A lot of injectors have spray patterns like that. I don't think on a 2-stroke it really matters much at all, theres a LOT of air turbulance moving stuff around, not to mention they spray directly on the crank on the crankcase 2.5L. That being said, I do believe that there may be something to gain by having a well atomizing injector.

2.5 Hose Feeds


Pink Tips



25, I did order 2 brand new hose feeds, but they are on backorder until the end of the year........ which I'm not really sure what that means. They don't make that part number anymore, but Merc has always had a good supply of them. I'm guessing we may have seen the last of these injectors in new form..... go figure.

I went to order some pink tips as well....... and now I need to replace my keyboard because I spit my coffe all over. WOW those are expensive!

Anyone have a link for those "not China" injectors on Rock Auto? Ill buy a set and put this to rest.

EDIT: It looks like Mercury doesn't currently have any of the 0 280 150 036 injectors on order from Bosch. Seeing as Bosch doesn't make that part number anymore, I think my suspicions are correct...... we have seen the last 988181 injector leave a Mercury warehouse.

Blake

[CI STV]

Here is the link to the Rockauto listing for the SMP injector:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...+injector,6224