Another vertex ring issue

[Dave S]

Vertage? Not sure of spelling.... Mag .... scinataller,..... Chaz Do ya know any thing about Em...?

[FORBESAUTO]

OK , eli fair enough.

However ...

They make $ 19 dollar iron rings for chrome holes ( antique industrial type chrome )

Steel rings , plasma/molly coated, chro/molly , H-11 , he11fire, etc. for iron bores but some say you can run them in just about anything $ 20 - 35 dollars. More if it's a 4 stroke and has a 3 piece oil ring.
I know guys who use the above mentioned bare steel rings on coated cyls and get away with it. I have also seen the same ones get bit by it as well.

There must be a reason that Mother Merc used a Ti Nitride coated steel ring in their Sputter Disposition ( PVD ) coated alloy sleeve. But @ $100 a hole and the life expectancy of 100 hrs it's easy to see why some choose to go a cheaper route.

Round about the same time you were tempting divorce ( nice way to put it btw )
I chipped a cylinder. See my hand in the air, it's me accepting responsibility for my actions ... not pointing a finger. The end result, the man got his block, I'm still a US Chrome dealer and Mark and I are still friends .. and I only think about it when you bring it up ..

With this ring ...

So while we're on the subject of rings. I have a question OK maybe two

1 ) When has anyone heard of a "modern-day Wiseco" having issues ?
( true it's not really ring related, but will give the finger pointing democrats something to whine about )

2 ) When was the last time anyone heard of the pins falling out of a new Merc, WSM, Mahle, Wiseco, Pro, Vertex, replacement piston used in a "lake" application ???
With rings "cut" like these and of course installed in this direction ....

Glad you brought that up, I was already thinking it. I can’t tell ya the last time I’ve saw a pin come loose. I got a tad over 20 hours on a set of wisecos in a 200 right now that I’ve turned 7500 so far and have run it at 6500 for 15 miles on a rig that’s over 2k lbs, all good so far. Ole T-Rex used nothing but wisecos in all his motors and swears by them, and was the one that talked me in using them on this 200 motor. Yamaha motors come with forged pistons from the factory with steel sleeves, but guess what they gots a little more clearance at .008-.009 , imagine that.

[eli]

Exactly not to get off track ,2 stroke snowmobile engines they are far from smooth and will go 6000 /8000 miles before the ghost comes and are run 6500 to 8000 rpm all the time there is no top pin pistons used in that app nicasil cylinders get 15 dollar rings the whole top end kit is 150$ with gaskets to boot

[Chaz]

Exactly not to get off track ,2 stroke snowmobile engines they are far from smooth and will go 6000 /8000 miles before the ghost comes and are run 6500 to 8000 rpm all the time there is no top pin pistons used in that app nicasil cylinders get 15 dollar rings the whole top end kit is 150$ with gaskets to boot

Actually , you right on track. Or is it half track / half ski's ..
I can't say for sure, I only see stuck together rain when I go to the PRI show in INDY. God bless ya ifin ya can survive in that stuff .. gave me shrinkage

But going by your math, 6 to 8000 miles. Lets call it 7000
I'm sure you idle a lot and go 70 mph too call it average 40 mph = 175 hrs.
If you hit them long trails runnin and slow down to 80 mph = 87.5 hrs
Looks like typical NIC maintenance. I have no idea what kind of rings they sell you for $15 dollars, but if they go away in 100 hrs as well .. I can only assume they are also plated.
So it's super shrinkage -20 below zero F (nukkin futts) and you fire up your motor. A little cold natured so you blipp the throttle to keep it running. Get the sparkplug body up in the 300* F range so it will keep itself clean ... and away you go !
Pretty rapid change over an extremely wide temp range ... and the locating pins don't fall out .. Humm ... who'd a thunk it

[quote]

Glad you brought that up, I was already thinking it. I can’t tell ya the last time I’ve saw a pin come loose. I got a tad over 20 hours on a set of wisecos in a 200 right now that I’ve turned 7500 so far and have run it at 6500 for 15 miles on a rig that’s over 2k lbs, all good so far. Ole T-Rex used nothing but wisecos in all his motors and swears by them, and was the one that talked me in using them on this 200 motor. Yamaha motors come with forged pistons from the factory with steel sleeves, but guess what they gots a little more clearance at .008-.009 , imagine that. [quote]

Truth is they don't fall out anymore. And if we could go back in time and look at the parts in question 90% of it could be blamed on exhaust port size, shape and lack of chamfer. The other 10% more than likely fell under dissimilar metals with not enough interference fit. Aluminum grew quick, pin fell out. They fixed that back when I had black hair ..
A ring seals against the cyl wall with it's stored radial tension. During the compression stroke it also seals on it's bottom face against the land. Which typically is a minimum of 4 to 6 times as deep as the ring is tall. The reason we cannot run a radial gas port ( to keep the carbon and oil out ) is that the ring needs to seal along the top edge to build crankcase compression on the descending stroke.
With so much talk lately about ring gaps and bad mouthing good companies instead of putting the dunce cap on for a day. ( my place it's a piece of 2x4 on a neck yoke-rope .. and yes I've worn it. Builds character )
The last thing I think I would do ( racing 600 feet is another story, but then they don't really make more power @ 10,500 rpm ) is take a ring that has been cut for standard pins which has it's cylinder wall contact area compromised ( but for the most part shrouded by the pin itself) and now take it and remove most of the lower contact patch/ radial support , leave two little tips hanging out in the breeze, then be forced to line them up over each other and recommend that as the best possible scenario for a possible "high mileage" lake motor. Well honestly really needs to get out a little more often and see the advancements made in the last 20 years ..

Forby, when you said :

Yamaha motors come with forged pistons from the factory with steel sleeves, but guess what they

gots

a little more clearance at

.008-.009 ,

imagine that.

It reminded me of one of my mentor's from long ago .. He'd say .. son all ya gotta be is just a little smarter than what your workin with ... !
Of course I hated it then .. but holds true to this day ..

[FMP]

Gas ports, it works and the motor made great power but was it beneficial to sealing in practice? It didn't plug or appear to build up in the groove, time will tell.

Yes, Chrysler x flow but not Wisecos. Practice was deemed illegal in certain rule books.

[Dave Strong]

[QUOTE=Chaz;3129120]Actually , you right on track. Or is it half track / half ski's ..
I can't say for sure, I only see stuck together rain when I go to the PRI show in INDY. God bless ya ifin ya can survive in that stuff .. gave me shrinkage

But going by your math, 6 to 8000 miles. Lets call it 7000
I'm sure you idle a lot and go 70 mph too call it average 40 mph = 175 hrs.
If you hit them long trails runnin and slow down to 80 mph = 87.5 hrs
Looks like typical NIC maintenance. I have no idea what kind of rings they sell you for $15 dollars, but if they go away in 100 hrs as well .. I can only assume they are also plated.
So it's super shrinkage -20 below zero F (nukkin futts) and you fire up your motor. A little cold natured so you blipp the throttle to keep it running. Get the sparkplug body up in the 300* F range so it will keep itself clean ... and away you go !
Pretty rapid change over an extremely wide temp range ... and the locating pins don't fall out .. Humm ... who'd a thunk it

[quote]

Glad you brought that up, I was already thinking it. I can’t tell ya the last time I’ve saw a pin come loose. I got a tad over 20 hours on a set of wisecos in a 200 right now that I’ve turned 7500 so far and have run it at 6500 for 15 miles on a rig that’s over 2k lbs, all good so far. Ole T-Rex used nothing but wisecos in all his motors and swears by them, and was the one that talked me in using them on this 200 motor. Yamaha motors come with forged pistons from the factory with steel sleeves, but guess what they gots a little more clearance at .008-.009 , imagine that.

Truth is they don't fall out anymore. And if we could go back in time and look at the parts in question 90% of it could be blamed on exhaust port size, shape and lack of chamfer. The other 10% more than likely fell under dissimilar metals with not enough interference fit. Aluminum grew quick, pin fell out. They fixed that back when I had black hair ..
A ring seals against the cyl wall with it's stored radial tension. During the compression stroke it also seals on it's bottom face against the land. Which typically is a minimum of 4 to 6 times as deep as the ring is tall. The reason we cannot run a radial gas port ( to keep the carbon and oil out ) is that the ring needs to seal along the top edge to build crankcase compression on the descending stroke.
With so much talk lately about ring gaps and bad mouthing good companies instead of putting the dunce cap on for a day. ( my place it's a piece of 2x4 on a neck yoke-rope .. and yes I've worn it. Builds character )
The last thing I think I would do ( racing 600 feet is another story, but then they don't really make more power @ 10,500 rpm ) is take a ring that has been cut for standard pins which has it's cylinder wall contact area compromised ( but for the most part shrouded by the pin itself) and now take it and remove most of the lower contact patch/ radial support , leave two little tips hanging out in the breeze, then be forced to line them up over each other and recommend that as the best possible scenario for a possible "high mileage" lake motor. Well honestly really needs to get out a little more often and see the advancements made in the last 20 years ..

Forby, when you said :

Yamaha motors come with forged pistons from the factory with steel sleeves, but guess what they

gots

a little more clearance at

.008-.009 ,

imagine that.

It reminded me of one of my mentor's from long ago .. He'd say .. son all ya gotta be is just a little smarter than what your workin with ... !
Of course I hated it then .. but holds true to this day ..

Chaz if he is running a Ski Doo rings are moly/steel or used to be last set I bought. Flat land riding must be easier on things than the mountain riding, never get 3000 miles out of single ring up here. When they went to dual ring pistons it improved life some.

Dave

[eli]

cast pistons and 15 $ rings in nik cylinder $150 for top end kit ,2 pistons rings and gaskets ,so for a merc v6 cant do the same would be $450 for the whole shebang ? its 450 just for the gold rings I never seen plating on snowmobile rings they look like just plain iron rings we just did a Polaris rush 800 top end with spi coated cast pistons and the plain jane iron looking rings say average 50 mph on trail is still 7000 rpm and 8000 miles later seems way better than an outboard life ,an outboard can not climb a mountain

[Chaz]

Gas ports, it works and the motor made great power but was it beneficial to sealing in practice? It didn't plug or appear to build up in the groove, time will tell.

Yes, Chrysler x flow but not Wisecos. Practice was deemed illegal in certain rule books.

Yes, there is power in gas porting the piston. The down side on a two stoke might be that the excess pressure pushing the ring out into the exhaust port on every power stroke could damage or prematurely wear the ring.

I can see where half of that Chrysler piston wouldn't clog up ..
Same principle, they moved the ports down around the corner to the side away from any chance of carbon building up and clogging up the ports.



I know the coatings were implemented to reduce ring wear. But for a while there it seemed like they helped the bores make it past the break-in period. Thats why I asked eli what he used and how he broke it in.
To hone NiC I bought : course diamond $450.00 , fine diamond $450.00 , bottom pressure half diamond half wood $450.00
I have since learned that I can burn the glue off of the stone side of E-bay sets . Buy diamond sticks from India and make my own for less than half the price of the store bought ones. Still expensive tooling to work on coated blocks. Sleeves are expensive. If you hurt "just" the plating in one hole, it's just about the same money to send it in and have all 6 redone as it is to change the bad one out .
The easy answer is .. a man's gotta hate money, ta love those motors ..

[Markus]

Sleeves are expensive. If you hurt "just" the plating in one hole, it's just about the same money to send it in and have all 6 redone as it is to change the bad one out .

Either sleeves have gone up or replating a block has come down. Replating the whole thing used to be a tad more expensive than replacing two sleeves from what I remember.

[Motv18]

There was a study posted on ring gaps. Think it’s car based about the gaps lining up and gap sizes effects on compression.

Results were pretty slick something like .030 befor any noticeable test loss.

[Chaz]

Either sleeves have gone up or replating a block has come down. Replating the whole thing used to be a tad more expensive than replacing two sleeves from what I remember.

Markus , you tell me what you would put a couple of sleeves in for. Normally if a block needs two sleeves .. it needs the air-conditioned floors and front half fixed @ the same time .. but for now we'll just say the stars aligned and all that is prestine ...

http://advancedsleeve.com/Documents/...%20Catalog.pdf

I know the web site says $363 ea. for an 1129 A, B or C but the current master price sheet says $ 433.29 ea. + shipping of course .

Here ya go .. $ 450.00 a set and

your

in

buiz..

http://www.tennesseeabrasive.com/products/nikasil.aspx

No, no, not yet ... ya need a vessel of liquid nitrogen, a small dewar to work with smaller, safer amounts. Then of course if one squeaks to a stop before it seats all the way. Or it go in a few degree's off, you gotta eat it ... so tell me brother , whats a fair price to install a pair of 1129 sleeves .. ???

Motv18

There was a study posted on ring gaps. Think it’s car based about the gaps lining up and gap sizes effects on compression.

Results were pretty slick something like .030 befor any noticeable test loss.
not once ever

I have never , not once ever read a manual or a study to where it was found to be advantagous to align the gaps. If anything , the OEM's have gone way out of their way to provide instructions on how they want their rings placed in relation to thrust angle and wrist pin bore.

My coment was in relation to advising people in this day and age of quality parts building a 6000 rpm motor and scaring them into thinking they need to resort to tricks required decades ago to make a 8000 rpm motor live.

As far as gaps , I was at the Rock and my uncle ( old black man ran T/D with us ) lipped one hole and knocked the tension out of the top ring in a few others .
We shoved all of em out , hung one new piston . And as he tells the story , I took my box with about 20 sets of used Hellfires , squeesed em like a ol woman do maters at the food store. Keep some .. throw some back .. Used rings .. top ring .040 second ring .050 Put my pretty mild tune-up in it , ran it on the jack stands for maybe 5 minutes before he took it to the water box and went 6.70's / 200 mph with that car .
A gauge or a leak down might say the motor was dead . I didn't see one gauge run down that track all weekend .. What I do know is that if you live to make a gauge happy , you will eventually butt the rings and lift the land. ( as he did )
If the second gap is bigger than the top, pressure will not build between the two rings and lift the top one off the seat (flutter) creating a major leak. The more compression, boost, nirtrous, etc. the more this comes into play. ( Pat Musi pretty much gets credit for that one )
Why was my uncle's motor slow and burn up .. ? He listened to too many people. He ran it "fat so it wouldnt get hurt" Which.. washed the oil off the walls with the excess fuel. Friction+heat NFG , 120 NOS gas + oil = junk gas . How do you light that ??? jack the timing to burn the fuel .. pistons , head's , gaskets .. turn tool steel rings into sketti ..
I pinched the fuel out of it , put the timing in the back seat .. that was ten years ago .. that POS hasn't been apart since

[Motv18]

Haha,

hows this bubble gum to seal a intake gasket leak, two choices dq as a no show or bubble gum and run. 8.91 we were a slower bracket. And time to fix it right overnight.

[Markus]

Markus , you tell me what you would put a couple of sleeves in for. Normally if a block needs two sleeves .. it needs the air-conditioned floors and front half fixed @ the same time .. but for now we'll just say the stars aligned and all that is prestine ...

http://advancedsleeve.com/Documents/...%20Catalog.pdf

I know the web site says $363 ea. for an 1129 A, B or C but the current master price sheet says $ 433.29 ea. + shipping of course .

Here ya go .. $ 450.00 a set and

your

in

buiz..

http://www.tennesseeabrasive.com/products/nikasil.aspx

No, no, not yet ... ya need a vessel of liquid nitrogen, a small dewar to work with smaller, safer amounts. Then of course if one squeaks to a stop before it seats all the way. Or it go in a few degree's off, you gotta eat it ... so tell me brother , whats a fair price to install a pair of 1129 sleeves .. ???

From memory, back in the days I think it cost about $1100 to have Ruck do it, including the work and the two Nicom sleeves.

I also think it cost about $1100 to have Ruck send the block to US Chrome for replacing.

Things may be different now.

And of course it gets more expensive if you need a new propeller, too...

[Chaz]

Things may be different now.

All right, that's close enough for me ..

And of course it gets more expensive if you need a new propeller, too...

Actually found a guy to work with that's very good + reasonable ...

No wait .. I meant EXTREMELY good and VERY reasonable ..

[Dave S]

Is that prop bigger or just closer on that block ? Must be Trick photo.......Blades look wrong.......HeeHee....