Indexing flywheel

[Chaz]

Chaz thank you for this information and the BJH site.

Gary there have been some brilliant minds come from your neck of the woods. It's a shame that the decades have taken their freedom to be creative from them.

Chaz:

I know this thread is about roll it up, roll it down, make a mark , move on.

Forby , I was able ta hang with ya the first time ..

And it's not that I disagree with you , but for me .010 either way from the top is not far enough away from the slug being parked during TDC dwell time, that I'm convinced that it's received its marching orders yet... Yea, I know you already know. LOL .050 kinda guy

Lets see .. I gotz a slab of 1/8" with a .30 calibre hole in it for a nut and bolt .

An NGK with a 3/8" all-thread in the middle .. both take the long way around to go clunk - clunk.

I threaded a piece of 1.000" alum round stock 14x1.25 mm about 100 years ago, but deff the easy way if it's all in one pile.

I made up a bunch of these guys. diff ht and widths. Best move I made was putting the dial indicator mount holes in a few spots. never know when an oddball situation is gonna come up ...

KIRCHNER

i think merc should invest in a new crankshaft machine,

Kirch , I think they heard ya .. I seen a whole bunch of the top Mother Merc brass @ Harbor Freight buyin buyin up all the Fanuc , Okuma , Van Norman , Varnsdorf cheap Chink copies they could get their hands on ....

Maybe this will explain it a little better. This is how I checked the 3.0L crank i was talking about. and the worst it was out was .003

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[LongShot]

Easy on the Van Norman reference Mr. Chaz......Just put 6 holes in a 2.5 today that were less than .0003" cylinder to cylinder and under .0005" taper after finish hone. If you ain't red you ain't right......goes for politics too!!! I know, I know.....that ain't close enough....It'll work with Wiseco's.

[FORBESAUTO]

Chaz, yeah you right I did kinda short change it with .010 lol. Thanks for clearing that up. I usually adjust mt stop to where it’s around 10 degrees on flywheel so reference points are easier just ole slow butt just wasn’t registering that’s a good more than .010.

On that same note, for the ones with calculators figurin how many thousandths another degree number would be, it’s not evenly proportionate, but variable . The amount of piston travel per degree of crank angle changes depending on rod journal angle. For instance when at TDC and BDC rod journal angle and rod angle are parallel, piston travel is at minimum st this point. As the journal angle to rod piston increases to perpendicular (90degrees) piston travel increases per degree being the most at 90 degrees. So if working on an engine other than a Merc 2.0,2.4, and 2.5 or degrees other than 25BTDC on one of these, unless you better at figurin than me, you will need to set the motor at desired amount degrees and measure the piston travel down to get your spec to set marks on flywheel.

Also important to know if figurin porting cuts whenusing a degree wheel.

[phillnjack]

All the indexing and calibrating and talking about the degree being wrong on the crank is fine, But what is the fix ? (if any).

[FORBESAUTO]

I’m not seeing more than 2 degrees variations, anything more than that and need to digging into what’s up. Main reason I do it is for issues in ignition system. I’ve had em as high as 6-7 degrees off due to bad switchboxes bias circuits, this causes major issues. Only way to detect it is by indexing all cylinders

[nitro_rat]

All the indexing and calibrating and talking about the degree being wrong on the crank is fine, But what is the fix ? (if any).

The “fix” is to set timing on the most advanced cylinder. Maybe more of a “crutch” than a “fix” but it’s all we can do!

[Chaz]

Easy on the Van Norman reference Mr. Chaz......

Mr. H,

What I said was in reference to one of our fellow members who is working on a world record ... "length of time it takes to do a compression and leak down test with H.F. tools" .
So if I mentioned "Van Norman" in my rant, then it is a tool good enough that the Chinese have hijacked (along with the others mentioned ) and have copied to a tee.

@ Harbor Freight buyin up all the Fanuc , Okuma , Van Norman , Varnsdorf cheap Chink copies they could get their hands on ....

So you see brother, no disrespect twords any American company. Past or present...
My shop must run on E-85 cuz it's all green ..
I called and spoke to Joe @ Quickway when I needed a few parts for my valve resurfacer that Goodson didn't carry. During our conversation, I told him that I also owned a Quickway power hone cabinet and FN boring bar and was curious as to why they discontinued making not only hone's and bars, but other machine tools. Some of which I started using in the late 1970's ?
China was a big part, but early on they laughed because it was all junk. They quit laughing when some of it got to be pretty good. He said right off the bat the stuff from India took a big part of the market share. Then they tried to outsource (like that word ) the main body frame and shafts so that it wasn't like gunsmithing a Smith+Wesson , but more like laying out a dozen Glocks all over the table and putting together 12 guns without looking. What works for Glock , didn't work so good for them.
In the end, Peterson, Van Norman, Burco, and maybe a few other's tried to save the small machinery industry for guys like you and I. They painted them different colors , but they all have the same parts and for the most part, had the same results.
I thank god that there's a guy in Iowa who still makes hand lapped gears and has shim + bushing kits for the old "hand- built" machines that will shoot a bullseye every time, like the ones you and I have

[LongShot]

Mr. H,

What I said was in reference to one of our fellow members who is working on a world record ... "length of time it takes to do a compression and leak down test with H.F. tools" .
So if I mentioned "Van Norman" in my rant, then it is a tool good enough that the Chinese have hijacked (along with the others mentioned ) and have copied to a tee.



So you see brother, no disrespect twords any American company. Past or present...
My shop must run on E-85 cuz it's all green ..
I called and spoke to Joe @ Quickway when I needed a few parts for my valve resurfacer that Goodson didn't carry. During our conversation, I told him that I also owned a Quickway power hone cabinet and FN boring bar and was curious as to why they discontinued making not only hone's and bars, but other machine tools. Some of which I started using in the late 1970's ?
China was a big part, but early on they laughed because it was all junk. They quit laughing when some of it got to be pretty good. He said right off the bat the stuff from India took a big part of the market share. Then they tried to outsource (like that word ) the main body frame and shafts so that it wasn't like gunsmithing a Smith+Wesson , but more like laying out a dozen Glocks all over the table and putting together 12 guns without looking. What works for Glock , didn't work so good for them.
In the end, Peterson, Van Norman, Burco, and maybe a few other's tried to save the small machinery industry for guys like you and I. They painted them different colors , but they all have the same parts and for the most part, had the same results.
I thank god that there's a guy in Iowa who still makes hand lapped gears and has shim + bushing kits for the old "hand- built" machines that will shoot a bullseye every time, like the ones you and I have






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Don't want to highjack the thread.....but I will. All among friends. Mr. Chaz I have 4 Van Norman bars. One has a small column and uses smaller tool holder. It is a 777 I think. It was my go to machine until it was knocked over in a move and bent the column. I have 2 777s "sucker" machines that were used in the field to bore large cylinders in situ and the shavings, well at least some of them, could be vacuumed up the column. I would say there are some big Cat diesels that went to their grave with cast iron shavings laying deep in the pans. The newest machine I have is totally different casting and I am guessing it was marketed after VN was acquired and it looks like a green machine. Once I got the column adjusted on the new machine it does a fine job.....when I get the time to sit in front of it. Therapeutic even. Had to chime in. Haven't spoken with you in a while. Mention your name in recommendations often. PS.....I use WD by the gallon too and you just have to tease me with the power hone.

[Chaz]

All the indexing and calibrating and talking about the degree being wrong on the crank is fine, But what is the fix ? (if any).

As pointed out on page one ..... and along the way on every page since.

Index your flywheel .... set your timing to the most aggressive cylinder .


As Jay prescribed, with a dial indicator thru the plug hole as being the quickest and easiest on a fully built or already running motor. The kit he sells comes with instructions ... simple enough

Forby went into a little more detail about checking with the head off ..

Nitro Rat ... agree's just &^%$^&** do it ...

Me .. I agree with all the above ! Let me say that again .. I agree with all the above.

But ... I'm also old enough to have set points on motorcycles thru a little slot in the flywheel , a lightbulb

( didn't have enough money to buy a little

buzzbox

back then )

and a dial indicator in the plug hole.
Reggie Chapman taught me how to prep a Big Block Chevrolet. I'd build a lot of motor's .. I bought a brand new Bow-Tie block. We clipped the main caps, line honed it one way first and final honed it the other way. We rough bored it to within .003 , loaded our crank and 4 corner pistons. He taught me how to measure it . Then take it apart and measure the bare block and compare it to the loaded numbers. Then square deck the block. Check and bush any lifter bores that were not where they belonged. I won a couple Quick 16 championships at Moroso Motorsports park with that piece. I owe that man a lot. I wish he would come to work for me Monday morning, but he would rather play his guitar. If he is happy, I'm happy for him. Today like everything else, it's not a secret. You can buy the tools, read about it on line. I share what I have learned. Most times the hard way.
When I was first learning to balance cranks, I had a quarter inch bit in the chuck making these little craters in the throw chasing a half a gram. The boss came over furious and said wtf are you doing ?? Quit wasting time and your making that crank look ugly ! I told him I was going to make it perfect .... He took an oil squirt can , spooppped a half dozen trigger pulls of oil on the crank , hit the switch , threw oil on me and everywhere. The crank was five grams out . he said , go wash up , then come clean my machine , floor, wall and ceiling. So if I sometimes sound a little direct ... it's how I was taught ....

Here Forby ... nOw dAy dont even gotz ta kNow how ta coUnt ... LOL


http://torqsoft.net/piston-position.html

[powerabout]

I kind of like the way OMC did it on a f1 v8, piston stop for the pointer/mark the flywheel then put the 360 degree decal on the flywheel

[nitro_rat]

The way to “fix” a crank that the throws aren’t perfectly aligned on is to “offset grind” it. This process can also be used to equalize the stroke of each throw. When this is done the journal is undersized. The problem with 2 stroke cranks is that there aren’t oversize bearings available like there are for most other engines that use insert bearings. Also it is well documented on Merc V6 outboard cranks that if you touch them at all for repair, balancing, etc, that they will fail in short order. So you either live with what you have or sort through a pile of cores for the best one you can find. Either way you’ll still need to index your flywheel for the best results. If I was digging through a pile of cranks I would be looking for the one with the least amount of runout...

[Motv18]

Two banks have separate tdc degrees think X. If you degree the stator/ trigger it should be not evenly spaced. In theory 3 should be. 90* sometimes you can get away with one tdc. Was a huge problem for people learning vw 35*v. Dwell time is also mentioned that slack also creates degree difference. If you degree the dwell on both banks you should come up 60* v.

Theory doesnt equal function. Should help with measurements confusion.

Buy from jay. Listen to forb

[Soporific]

Two banks have separate tdc degrees think X. If you degree the stator/ trigger it should be not evenly spaced. In theory 3 should be. 90* sometimes you can get away with one tdc. Was a huge problem for people learning vw 35*v. Dwell time is also mentioned that slack also creates degree difference. If you degree the dwell on both banks you should come up 60* v.

Theory doesnt equal function. Should help with measurements confusion.

Buy from jay. Listen to forb

Old thread, I know.....just too bad that the switch box motors didn't have six adjustable coils on the trigger so that each trigger coil was dedicated to one cylinder and it could be adjusted up to 3 degrees to dial in each cylinder's timing. Retail models have no adjustment . Racing models have adjustment. Maybe this winter I will get around to making a trigger that is very similar to that!

[rgsauger]

Old thread, I know.....just too bad that the switch box motors didn't have six adjustable coils on the trigger so that each trigger coil was dedicated to one cylinder and it could be adjusted up to 3 degrees to dial in each cylinder's timing. Retail models have no adjustment . Racing models have adjustment. Maybe this winter I will get around to making a trigger that is very similar to that!

Interesting thoughts...a trigger for each coil...each one mildly adjustable...lose the switch boxes....hmmmmmmmmmm......

[Soporific]

Interesting thoughts...a trigger for each coil...each one mildly adjustable...lose the switch boxes....hmmmmmmmmmm......

I would leave the switch boxes in to start and to keep it simple. I have a flywheel with no hub magnet so I only need to epoxy on one small neodymium magnet to trigger all six coils. I was planning to ground one wire of each coil and also put diodes in the signal path of the others to only pass on a positive signal to the switch boxes. With adjustable trigger coils, all cylinders could be firing on time, hahaha, with enough set up time and high rpm testing. I purchased two extra trigger coils to modify into one with six for my prototype. Too many projects, too little time.