Switzer Sk-175 repair and rebuild

[NY Switzer-Head]

Well, it's time to start my own build thread.....

Last August there was an incident when cranking my Switzer SK-175-BR up on the hoist. Long story short, jerk in large deck boat goes by 10' from my dock (bow in the sky, Bud in hand) just as I am starting to crank up from being on a cruise with my kids. My boat lifts up and then slams back down on the hoist. I was of course pissed, but didn't see any damage, and let it go with a little off color language in the other boaters direction. The next day, I went out for a cruise alone, and ended up sinking. Luckily I made it close to shore in time, and hit lake bottom in about 2' of water. With the help of some friendly locals and the local VFD, I was able to drag it out of the lake and get it onto my trailer. The bunk on the hoist had actually punched a rectangular flap into my hull near the transom, where there was some soft core hiding.

I have trolled through and read a lot of everyone's repair threads. I have decided that I will not be using any wood to re-core or restructure the boat, as I don't want to ever do this boat again. I am also leaning towards using epoxy for the longer pot life while working alone. And I was hoping that the Epoxy wouldn't stink up the house too much, as I work mostly at night in an attached garage that my 4yo son's room is above. I think ployester fumes would be too toxic and stinky. Is it correct that Epoxy is safe? Or only safer? I will of course, have the garage windows open and fans circulating air in and out, but should I still be concerned about the safety of my family above?

I am pretty far along now. Rigging is all gone, as is 90% of the wood, and I am ready to split the hull and deck, and cut out the last few feet of core and floor under the open bow. I also will be cutting out the transom then too, even though it was already re-done and is solid, because it is wood, and I am going to do it in Coosa now. Then grind, grind, grind, and start glassing! Tonight I will be releasing the last of the rub rail and drilling out rivets. Wish me luck!

Here's a few photos of the damage, and of where I was at last night:

[NY Switzer-Head]

I didn't take many pics, but I have gotten a bit more done. I finished splitting the deck and hull, and I am glad I decided to re-do the transom as well. Although it had been done by previous owner, there were gaps between the wood and glass and it wasn't done in one solid piece of wood. They also apparently were a bit short on wood and decided to fill the whole top with Bondo!! I hung the deck from the ceiling of my garage because when you run out of room, go up! Works well, but shocked my wife quite a bit considering she parks under it. Allows me to lift off and lower on by myself with the chain fall, then lock in place with ratchet straps. The pics don't show it, but I finished taking out the last bit of floor and core from under the open bow and the transom that was behind the splashwell.





I am ordering my materials. Have priced it out and decided on the following list:

1.5" Coosa for Transom
1" Coosa (sandwiched 1/2") for the keel
3/4" Coosa stringers in place of the original triangulated 3/8" ply and some additional bulkheads
1/2" Coosa floor
H80 Divinnycell core
All done with West Epoxy 1.5oz mat and 1708 biaxial

I have left the boxes filled with foam in the gunwales at this point. They are solid and retain some hull stiffness while I work. I am going to set some 2x10's across them to perch on while I work my glass and also to erect bracing to clamp things like stringers and floor down. After all that list above is done, I will remove those boxes and replace them with 1/2" Coosa too before I put a layer of glass on top of the floor and the whole hull up to the rail as one big layup.

Might not be as light as some other builds on here, but I load up this boat with people and ski the lake all day almost every weekend, so it has to take a pounding with a full load all the time.

[capt bart]

Although I'm sure that there are people that might disagree , i would forego the use of mat and 1708 w/mat if you are going to be using epoxy resin . The reason being that mat is manufactured with a binder in it to hold it together until the styrene in the polyester resin dissolves it . Epoxy resin has no styrene to do this so you end up with a binder in your lamination that has no benefit and actually compromises the strength of the lamination . When you call the fiberglass supply house tell them you are planning on using epoxy resin for your lay-up and ask them if they have the appropriate weight cloths you need that are epoxy resin compatible . Epoxy resin is manufactured so that it's bonding properties allow for a very good bond between cloth to substrate and cloth to cloth as long as you either complete your lay-up in one session or completely remove the amine blush and sand in between cured coats .

Good luck with your project !!!!

Oh , and i won't even bother to ask what has happened to the beer swillin' pontoon clown

[NY Switzer-Head]

Although I'm sure that there are people that might disagree , i would forego the use of mat and 1708 w/mat if you are going to be using epoxy resin . The reason being that mat is manufactured with a binder in it to hold it together until the styrene in the polyester resin dissolves it . Epoxy resin has no styrene to do this so you end up with a binder in your lamination that has no benefit and actually compromises the strength of the lamination . When you call the fiberglass supply house tell them you are planning on using epoxy resin for your lay-up and ask them if they have the appropriate weight cloths you need that are epoxy resin compatible . Epoxy resin is manufactured so that it's bonding properties allow for a very good bond between cloth to substrate and cloth to cloth as long as you either complete your lay-up in one session or completely remove the amine blush and sand in between cured coats .

Good luck with your project !!!!

Oh , and i won't even bother to ask what has happened to the beer swillin' pontoon clown

I wondered how long it would take to get that response.... I am specifically planning on using a stitched 1708 with no styrene designed for epoxy. I am used to using 1708 and I didn't see a problem as long as I avoided styrene. I plan on using mat to fix the hole in my hull as it is easy to blend in edges, and I actually intended on doing that first with polyester, and then doing the whole inside structure with Epoxy. I am thinking this way as I am not painting my whole hull, but intend to only spot repair and blend to the existing gel coat, and I don't want to gel over epoxy. If was using all polyester, I would traditionally go mat-1708-mat-1708. There are mixed opinions on doing that in epoxy for sure. Some supply house websites actually say it's okay to use mat with styrene. Even West's own site has tests and results shown, and is somewhat hazy on the issue. http://www.westsystem.com/ss/chopped-strand-mat-epoxy/ I have been unable to locate stitched mat without styrene, which would be ideal, but apparently Corning has stopped making it. There are some chinese stitched mats online, but lead times are long and I am uneasy about chinese internet buys.

I am not adverse to other suggestions.... was just going with what I was used to and comfortable with. Actually was hoping I'd get suggestions here rather than a "don't do it". Thanks Capt!

[capt bart]

NY Switzer-Head , it is not the mat or cloth that contains the styrene , but the polyester resin . Styrene is what you smell when you are using a polyester based resin or gelcoat . Most mats are manufactured using a binder to hold them together . It is this binder that can possibly present problems when using epoxy resin but is dissolved by the styrene contained in polyester resin . If you feel better using mat in your lay-up you should be fine with 1708 as the mat is usually stitched to the cloth with little to no binders involved . Any reputable fiberglass supply business should be able to understand what you are trying to achieve and help you with securing the proper materials for your build . Whatever you do , don't ask the kid at the west marine store . It looks like you've gotten through most of the nasty part of you're project , so enjoy the homestretch , you'll be back to ridin' in no time .

[NY Switzer-Head]

Yes, by Styrene in mat/cloth, I meant styrene soluble binding agent. The 1708 I want to use is stitched with no binder in mat. I have not found a source for no binder mat in the US yet, but would like to. Been talking to US Composites for resin and glass, fiberglasssupply.com for Divinnycell core, and HM Marine for Coosa because they stock 5x12's so I can do my floor in one piece.

I have the heavy part done with getting the wood out. This boat actually came apart too easy. I am disappointed in the build quality. This Switzer was the first I've opened up that was built after the Switzer family sold the company. The construction techniques were nowhere near the level of my older boats. There were several spots where the wood was cut sloppy and they filled the gaps with what appears to be plain old Bondo. Not even the fiber reinforced stuff. I chipped it all out with a dull old chisel like it was dry play-doh. One spot in the floor, there was a 2" gap filled in!!! Everything was chopper gunned in and lots of dry spots in the layup and gaps where water got into the wood everywhere. I'm sure it will be much easier to hold on pad when I am done.

Now I have the major itchy part to do while I wait for my materials. Grinding the whole hull with the 7" and 4.5" grinders. Ugh. After that, it will be all down hill. I am a carpenter by trade, so scribing all the new coosa to fit should be pretty straight forward. After I have the hole patched, everything cut to fit, and the big pieces glued in, my dad and a local S&F member are supposed to come and be my mix monkeys so it can all be laid up in one day.

[capt bart]

LOL- Build Quality

I was working on my boat the other day fixing ''manufacturer malfeasances'' [not sure if they would let me post what i call them] and i got to thinking about how sweet life would be if i paid somebody else to take care of this . then it hit me like a ton of bricks . i already did and this is what i ended up with . there is no doubt in my mind that you will end up with a better boat than what you started out with .

i was talking with a boatbuilder friend the other day and the conversation drifted to how many people think it is perfectly acceptable to cut out rotten wood only to end up replacing it with ''marine ply'' sourced from the cdx rack at the local home depot . a couple of years later their deck or whatever is soft again and it is somehow now the fault of the fiberglass guy who told them to go with foam . ya just can't fix stupid and no one ever saved a dime being cheap .

have fun , life's to short not to --- capt bart

[NY Switzer-Head]

Had to take my truck in for a flat. Thank goodness for road hazard warranties! Got a huge cut in the sidewall from one of those great NY potholes! While they were getting to that I took a walk down to the store and got some more supplies for this weekend's boat work... A new tyvek suit, new filters for my mask, and 4 new 36 grit flap wheels for my 7". Sunday afternoon my wife is taking the kids out and I have a solid 4 hours to get nice and itchy!

[capt bart]

I guess talking your wife into grinding while you took the kids to a ballgame wasn't an option ?

[NY Switzer-Head]

Grind grind grind,
all day long,
grind grind grind while I sing this song...

[Robby321]

Subscribed! Keep those Switzers ALIVE!

[tunnels]

Grind grind grind,
all day long,
grind grind grind while I sing this song...

grinding is a lovely job and each time the grinder takes a little thin layer off it reveals the truth of how bad the guys are that built the boat originally , slap dash and she'll be right , out the door and get the money !!
Lack of resin is the biggest cause of what you are seeing , even after reloading you photo and getting a real close up its shocking and it need to be ground even more sorry to say !Been laid up with a chopper gun way to dry and not enough resin then the woven has been laid over the top of the chopped glass and the woven is also lacking resin . That is 99% of the problems you have uncovered . If you could have got some really close up pictures you would find dry fibres for sure not only in the csm but the woven as well . And as for the wood in the keel well I wont go there !!
As a QA in a few companies in recent years I have a USB plug in hand held microscope with a long lead for my lap top and it gets up really close and reveal's the root of problems encountered . And the laminators are able to see what they are doing wrong and how bad the workmanship really is !!
Its 95%of problems are just bad workmanship and the other 5% is poor choice of materials in most all cases !
Good luck !
Love your photos and keep them coming !!

[Robby321]

grinding is a lovely job and each time the grinder takes a little thin layer off it reveals the truth of how bad the guys are that built the boat originally , slap dash and she'll be right , out the door and get the money !!
Lack of resin is the biggest cause of what you are seeing , even after reloading you photo and getting a real close up its shocking and it need to be ground even more sorry to say !Been laid up with a chopper gun way to dry and not enough resin then the woven has been laid over the top of the chopped glass and the woven is also lacking resin . That is 99% of the problems you have uncovered . If you could have got some really close up pictures you would find dry fibres for sure not only in the csm but the woven as well . And as for the wood in the keel well I wont go there !!
As a QA in a few companies in recent years I have a USB plug in hand held microscope with a long lead for my lap top and it gets up really close and reveal's the root of problems encountered . And the laminators are able to see what they are doing wrong and how bad the workmanship really is !!
Its 95%of problems are just bad workmanship and the other 5% is poor choice of materials in most all cases !
Good luck !
Love your photos and keep them coming !!

Dude I REALLY have to call ya the carpet that comment. I have known Bob and Dave Switzer since the 70's and build the most SOLID BOATS known. Had a XS on a 74 SS 17 and a monster, "perfect ride". Neighbor a GL20, 200 Rude. One day Bobby and Carol, (and the doggy) with his NEW GL21 and a 235 Rude assend came up our channel and now he was "fastest us"!
To blame the "builder" of a boat made LONG ago? Silly as its the ownership its history that didn't do maintenance, care for proper.
I don't know the year the boat being worked on but it damn sure wasn't built yesterday but more like 30/40 years ago!

[tunnels]

In answer to my comments of 95% is bad workmanship is conservative and in reality its more like 99% and yes the choice of materials and the way these chosen materials are used these day is reall becoming an issue !!
I came to China to a place that had the opinion they were the best and I must say after hearing the spiel given by there managed /owner that had built an all composite small plane and the expert in composites I was taken to there work shop to keep an eye on what was happening there and could I make any improvement and stream line to speed up thing here and there . In less than a month I have found so many problems that were being covered over and done by what I call incompetent lazy clueless people its wasn't funny , I took over 1000 photos of before and after cover up and the problems I discovered were not only related to the workers but to there supervisors and team leaders and after following the trail even further found it went right to the boss himself and the insane processes he had laid down in stone !! so when I laid all my findings at his feet he would not believe !!.
So disheartened and very pissed off I walked out and took all my findings and equipment with me .
Most all my work in the last 25 years has been done to better than survey standards and I have always taught my staff that those standards are only a base line to never come down to ,when you work and strive for the best you can do all the time it just becomes a habit always !!

[XstreamVking]

If you are gonna use poly and epoxy on repairs, do the poly 1st and then use the epoxy......