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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Schubert View Post
    Rich,

    It's a total surprise that Ellie ever built V-4's & V-6's for Jack. I knew Ellie & had had his hand in to many race engine projects for EORA (Eastern Outboard Racing Ass.) on Long Island. I even ran a 49 c.i. modified 3 cylinder on a hydro for a guy out on the Island. Ellie also did most of Bill Fales machine work. OMC had an extensive race shop on the top floor of the Engineering building in Waukegan. Several technicians, Ziggy, Mouse, Mike J , Mike Kukla, Ken Solar, Ward Cox, and others that my fading memory forgets that built the engines for us that ran the various factory war races. All powerheads were dyno run & assigned to drivers by those results, so I doubt that Ellie ever built anything other then a sample that Jack could run on a dyno then perhaps duplicate what Ellie found & did. You'll have to provide proof otherwise for me to believe that Ellie participated in a more involved way.
    John:

    Ellie had a non stop string of blocks and powerheads coming from and to Waukegan....perhaps he did the protyping, but there sure were a lot of motors and not from privateers (ala Dick O'Dea). Ellie was very closed mouthed about this, but it was common knowledge in the pits in the northeast. I can also remember when OMC first emerged on the OPC racing scene in 1965 they brought a fleet of boats to various marathons (Orange Bowl 9 hour, etc). OMC had no racing facilities at that time so Ellie built the powerheads and found all kinds of RPM's unheard of from OMC prior to that...and Hubbell built the lower units on the West Coast. Ron Hill ran a pair on a Glastron And those engines screamed....The "factory" GT/X-115's followed a year or so later, and the "wars" began. At least this is how my aging brain cells remember those times.... who knows, maybe I'm senile and the Wankel really was developed in Waukegan as well?

    On a related issue we had a guy in Westwood doing a proprietary metal surface finishing process for us. I brought him to Mercury and they did some testing. He signed a contract and never spoke a word to me about his dealings with them after that..... There were certainly a lot of great minds around back then, but it was in both factory's best interests to claim ownership of as much technology as possible, after all they had to justify salaries to some pretty adept pencil pushers.

    Someday over a beer we can talk about how dry sumping the #6 Drive was "developed" by Mercury.
    Last edited by T2x; 01-30-2013 at 10:44 AM.
    20 Foot Switzer Wing 2 X S3000 (Dust'n the Wind II)
    !6 foot Wood Eltro Vee (2X Merc 1500's) (Dust'n the Wind IV)
    15 foot Powercat 15C (2 X Merc 1500) (Dust'n the Wind III)
    (Single engine boats are lacking something)
    15 Wooden Switzer Shooting Star...
    16 foot Lee Craft Merc S 3000-(Gold Dust II)
    (The exception proves the rule)
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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by T2x View Post
    John:

    Ellie had a non stop string of blocks and powerheads coming from and to Waukegan....perhaps he did the protyping, but there sure were a lot of motors and not from privateers (ala Dick O'Dea). Ellie was very closed mouthed about this, but it was common knowledge in the pits in the northeast. I can also remember when OMC first emerged on the OPC racing scene in 1965 they brought a fleet of boats to various marathons (Orange Bowl 9 hour, etc). OMC had no racing facilities at that time so Ellie built the powerheads and found all kinds of RPM's unheard of from OMC prior to that...and Hubbell built the lower units on the West Coast. Ron Hill ran a pair on a Glastron And those engines screamed....The "factory" GT/X-115's followed a year or so later, and the "wars" began. At least this is how my aging brain cells remember those times.... who knows, maybe I'm senile and the Wankel really was developed in Waukegan as well?

    On a related issue we had a guy in Westwood doing a proprietary metal surface finishing process for us. I brought him to Mercury and they did some testing. He signed a contract and never spoke a word to me about his dealings with them after that..... There were certainly a lot of great minds around back then, but it was in both factory's best interests to claim ownership of as much technology as possible, after all they had to justify salaries to some pretty adept pencil pushers.

    Someday over a beer we can talk about how dry sumping the #6 Drive was "developed" by Mercury.
    Rich,

    The more I think about this EORA had an Outlaw class that was raced in their free-for-alls before their APBA days. Ellie built many V-4's mated to Merc "D" housings & OMC 4-60 torque tubes. I know some used the 4-60 gear case but I'm sure most ere the Eldridge gear case. In any event, vould the stock pile of V-4 parts be there for his outlaw class parts supply?

  4. #63
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    Omc molinari in paris race

    Quote Originally Posted by lars strom View Post
    In the marathon races like Paris Six Hours..some Molinari boats still used the higher profile boat cowlings..I guess to fit the bigger fuel tank.
    Sorry Jackie another Molinari boat with an OMC..Here is a Johnson two liter..!!
    Sorry Lasse this boat is a Molinari copy i think the builders name was Steppichi ` Sanders and Posey drove it at the Paris 6 hr race and when you saw it on a trailer it looked less like a Molinari?

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Schubert View Post
    Rich,

    The more I think about this EORA had an Outlaw class that was raced in their free-for-alls before their APBA days. Ellie built many V-4's mated to Merc "D" housings & OMC 4-60 torque tubes. I know some used the 4-60 gear case but I'm sure most ere the Eldridge gear case. In any event, vould the stock pile of V-4 parts be there for his outlaw class parts supply?
    John....These motors were at his shop from the mid 60's to the late 70's and the outlaw V4's were long gone by then. The early OMC/Ellie motors I referred to on Ron Hill's Glastron, had standard OMC housings mated to Hubbell...not Eldridge gearcases...The Hubbells were hefty enough to run for hours in marathon conditions. The rest of your post makes a lot of sense in that when OMC decided to go racing...Ellie was probably the most experienced guy on the planet in making a race worthy V4 powerhead sing. Apparently OMC thought so too. I guess someone like Tommy Ireland would know much more about the relationship than I do....but I always thought this was common knowledge.
    Last edited by T2x; 01-30-2013 at 04:22 PM.
    20 Foot Switzer Wing 2 X S3000 (Dust'n the Wind II)
    !6 foot Wood Eltro Vee (2X Merc 1500's) (Dust'n the Wind IV)
    15 foot Powercat 15C (2 X Merc 1500) (Dust'n the Wind III)
    (Single engine boats are lacking something)
    15 Wooden Switzer Shooting Star...
    16 foot Lee Craft Merc S 3000-(Gold Dust II)
    (The exception proves the rule)
    Obsolete and Proud of it

  6. #65
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    Veldens Race Shop

    Quote Originally Posted by lars strom View Post
    Is it something in the French food that make you dream up all those story's Jackie...???? 40..two liter OMC powerheads in Veldens shop..!!
    See picture..that is the hand build OMC two liter powerhead..very few was made..maybe a 5 or 6.


    I like three things with France..Wine, Michelin tires and Paris Six Hours..!!

    Maybe you need to move back the Island again..!!..

    Back on topic..

    Here is M. Werner's nice Molinari in the best racing class ever..The OE class..always the largest
    class at the bigger races but Merc did not make a good engine for OE class.

    OMC supported this class for many many years but Merc just did not want to do that.
    Merc people told me the production 3 cylinder block was not good enuff to make it a winner in OE class. I was also told that the hand made looper block Merc built ones was to expensive !! so Merc gave up the class.
    Lasse the powerhead in the picture i think is a 2.4`149cu the 2.0 engines at Brugge were all painted orange and had 3 /2 barrel carbs?

  7. #66
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    Now, this is what I consider the best of S & F...this type of dialogue, right here. Can't beat racing history, from the actual particpants who were there living and breathing it. Thank you, guys. While I was an active OPC driver from the late 70s through the early 90s, I was but a lowly independent, and a v-bottom guy for most of that time anyway. You OZ, ON, Mod U and Champ (and even Mod 50) guys were the rock stars.
    Tiger

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by T2x View Post
    John....These motors were at his shop from the mid 60's to the late 70's and the outlaw V4's were long gone by then. The early OMC/Ellie motors I referred to on Ron Hill's Glastron, had standard OMC housings mated to Hubbell...not Eldridge gearcases...The Hubbells were hefty enough to run for hours in marathon conditions. The rest of your post makes a lot of sense in that when OMC decided to go racing...Ellie was probably the most experienced guy on the planet in making a race worthy V4 powerhead sing. Apparently OMC thought so too. I guess someone like Tommy Ireland would know much more about the relationship than I do....but I always thought this was common knowledge.
    Rich,

    I clipped your post & sent it to Ron. Here is his responses.
    No this is not correct. The GT 115 Johnsonand X-115 Evinrude were designed under Charlie's watch...Only the KILO recordwith adjustable gear ratio was Hubbell.....
    Last edited by John Schubert; 01-30-2013 at 06:46 PM. Reason: unnecessary info deleted

  9. #68
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    I can not post, only short..something is wrong..?

    All my posts on this thread is now deleted by me, so Old fiberglas can get started with the restoring of his Molinari boat
    Last edited by lars strom; 02-02-2013 at 07:50 AM.

  10. #69
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    Ok ask him what units he ran in the 66 Orange bowl regatta....pre X115.....
    20 Foot Switzer Wing 2 X S3000 (Dust'n the Wind II)
    !6 foot Wood Eltro Vee (2X Merc 1500's) (Dust'n the Wind IV)
    15 foot Powercat 15C (2 X Merc 1500) (Dust'n the Wind III)
    (Single engine boats are lacking something)
    15 Wooden Switzer Shooting Star...
    16 foot Lee Craft Merc S 3000-(Gold Dust II)
    (The exception proves the rule)
    Obsolete and Proud of it

  11. #70
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    Pep sold his outboard stuff to Jim Parker some time before 1965. There was another racing lower unit made specifically for the mid-1960's OMC's but the name escapes me at this time

  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark75H View Post
    Pep sold his outboard stuff to Jim Parker some time before 1965. There was another racing lower unit made specifically for the mid-1960's OMC's but the name escapes me at this time

    At the time (January 1966) there were about 5 or 6 boats running these high revving V4's.... (they had a VERY distinctive "whine" and having worked on numerous OMC "Fat 4's" prior to this I knew that the stock powerheads had no prayer of performing like these beauties). Remember this was at least a year prior to the introduction of the GT115's...and their remarkable power and lower units...

    I clearly recall a number of things about this race. Primary recollection was Hank Weiand Bowman's tragic death (My eldest son's middle name is Bowman in his honor) but there were many others. This was the first time that George Thompson appeared as Chrysler Outboard's race director. There were a number of wings in the pits, including one called "Miss Subway" that was a wooden copy of a Switzer made by a guy who apparently had an ax to grind with Bob and Dave so he made his own sadly slower version. Mercury brought all of their non factory entry boats to Dave Craig's Skyway Marine to replace our stock rubber cage mounts with bolts and leather washers ( all of which broke , but that's another story). While there Dick Schneider had a canvas bag with him and showed me a glimpse of the first "Chopper" prototype inside and asked us to run a pair on our factory 17' dual Glastron. (We tested but couldn't get over on plane with them.)...and, among other recollections, the OMC lower units which were repeatedly described as Hubbells...whether or not they were actually Parker/Hubbells or something completely different I can't swear to... but they sure weren't Speedmasters ...and they certainly were'nt home made.
    Maybe a picture will refresh my memory.....?
    20 Foot Switzer Wing 2 X S3000 (Dust'n the Wind II)
    !6 foot Wood Eltro Vee (2X Merc 1500's) (Dust'n the Wind IV)
    15 foot Powercat 15C (2 X Merc 1500) (Dust'n the Wind III)
    (Single engine boats are lacking something)
    15 Wooden Switzer Shooting Star...
    16 foot Lee Craft Merc S 3000-(Gold Dust II)
    (The exception proves the rule)
    Obsolete and Proud of it

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by T2x View Post
    Ok ask him what units he ran in the 66 Orange bowl regatta....pre X115.....
    In the 66 9 hour the first placed single engine boat was European looking v-bottom with a V-4 Evinrude. It had some kind of racing lower unit on it but I dont know which one. I took a look at that boat and because of the rules of the race I am pretty sure it had a spare unit straped down in the boat plus tools for a change.The rules forbid outside assistance once the race began hence my 7 hours as "riding mechanic" on the Miami 2 New York boat. I don't know if a change was done. The drivers were 2 brothers from West Palm Beach but I can't remember the name. That boat ran real well and passed us several times.

  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by T2x View Post
    At the time (January 1966) there were about 5 or 6 boats running these high revving V4's.... (they had a VERY distinctive "whine" and having worked on numerous OMC "Fat 4's" prior to this I knew that the stock powerheads had no prayer of performing like these beauties). Remember this was at least a year prior to the introduction of the GT115's...and their remarkable power and lower units...

    I clearly recall a number of things about this race. Primary recollection was Hank Weiand Bowman's tragic death (My eldest son's middle name is Bowman in his honor) but there were many others. This was the first time that George Thompson appeared as Chrysler Outboard's race director. There were a number of wings in the pits, including one called "Miss Subway" that was a wooden copy of a Switzer made by a guy who apparently had an ax to grind with Bob and Dave so he made his own sadly slower version. Mercury brought all of their non factory entry boats to Dave Craig's Skyway Marine to replace our stock rubber cage mounts with bolts and leather washers ( all of which broke , but that's another story). While there Dick Schneider had a canvas bag with him and showed me a glimpse of the first "Chopper" prototype inside and asked us to run a pair on our factory 17' dual Glastron. (We tested but couldn't get over on plane with them.)...and, among other recollections, the OMC lower units which were repeatedly described as Hubbells...whether or not they were actually Parker/Hubbells or something completely different I can't swear to... but they sure weren't Speedmasters ...and they certainly were'nt home made.
    Maybe a picture will refresh my memory.....?
    Rich, here is Ron's answer.
    I didn't run the 1966 Orange Bowl Regatta, butthe 16' Glasstron I ran at Havasu, 1966 did. The guy that drove atthe Orange Bowl was hurt pretty badly when he got tossed out of the boat. He was from Garden Grove, named Dave Hensel...or something like that. Oneof the Pre X-115's hung on a boat near my school til about five yearsago. Not sure hit was his motor, but I thought it was. DonHendrich would know as he built the props. By 1966 OMC was building partsthemsevlves. As these were shifter cases, not real strong but shiftableand Hubbell never made them. <o></o>
    <o></o>
    Someone needs to askthese questions on BRF, as Nerstrom would know. Ray Nydahl and Mousebuilt many motors...All my 1967 motors were built by Ray Nydahl.<o></o>
    <o></o>
    Moors were controlled prettytightly....Jack got all over my dad for taking one apart once. Mydad said, "He was tired of trading powerheads and wanted to figure out whythey were blowing up." What my dad found, cost someon their job I doknow that! I doubt Ellie, who I don't know, ever touched an OMC inthe 66-era and on...Things were changing too fast to have some guy"HOP" one up.<o></o>
    <o></o>
    I spend every weekendin February at Parker in 1967 and 1968 with OMC. I never met anEllie! (Parker 9 Hour was the first weekend in March, always).<o></o>
    <o></o>

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by T2x View Post
    At the time (January 1966) there were about 5 or 6 boats running these high revving V4's.... (they had a VERY distinctive "whine" and having worked on numerous OMC "Fat 4's" prior to this I knew that the stock powerheads had no prayer of performing like these beauties). Remember this was at least a year prior to the introduction of the GT115's...and their remarkable power and lower units...

    I clearly recall a number of things about this race. Primary recollection was Hank Weiand Bowman's tragic death (My eldest son's middle name is Bowman in his honor) but there were many others. This was the first time that George Thompson appeared as Chrysler Outboard's race director. There were a number of wings in the pits, including one called "Miss Subway" that was a wooden copy of a Switzer made by a guy who apparently had an ax to grind with Bob and Dave so he made his own sadly slower version. Mercury brought all of their non factory entry boats to Dave Craig's Skyway Marine to replace our stock rubber cage mounts with bolts and leather washers ( all of which broke , but that's another story). While there Dick Schneider had a canvas bag with him and showed me a glimpse of the first "Chopper" prototype inside and asked us to run a pair on our factory 17' dual Glastron. (We tested but couldn't get over on plane with them.)...and, among other recollections, the OMC lower units which were repeatedly described as Hubbells...whether or not they were actually Parker/Hubbells or something completely different I can't swear to... but they sure weren't Speedmasters ...and they certainly were'nt home made.
    Maybe a picture will refresh my memory.....?
    Another reply from Ron. I was also going to say that perhaps the gear cases then were from Jones as sometime during that time Charlie Strang was there prior to being able to go to OMC as there was, I believe, a non compete contract with Merc.

    I know the '66 units ran the Orange Bowl as TedMay's gearcases came loose becasue they had gaskets on them. RayHuellett, who may have machined the gearcases in Pheonix, a good friend of DocJones and did a ton of machine work and later assembly work for the Stranglers,told me they didn't have that trouble in Florida...but did tell me where hethought I'd fly out of the boat...Pictures, later today!<o></o>

  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Schubert View Post
    Another reply from Ron. I was also going to say that perhaps the gear cases then were from Jones as sometime during that time Charlie Strang was there prior to being able to go to OMC as there was, I believe, a non compete contract with Merc.

    I know the '66 units ran the Orange Bowl as TedMay's gearcases came loose becasue they had gaskets on them. RayHuellett, who may have machined the gearcases in Pheonix, a good friend of DocJones and did a ton of machine work and later assembly work for the Stranglers,told me they didn't have that trouble in Florida...but did tell me where hethought I'd fly out of the boat...Pictures, later today!<o></o>
    Rich,

    Ron sent a picture of his Glastron with twin GT's & you can see that the gear cases are either OMC or something other then Hubbell. I can't post it here as the site says that it's too big & I don't know how to re-size it. If Sam Cullis reads this perhaps he can get it posted or Rich if you e-mail me at jschubert@wi.rr.com I'll e-mail it to you.

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