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  1. #46
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    [QUOTE=T2x;2431034]Here's the last Molinari I raced in.....very lightly used T3 hull (I think Billy tested it without actually seeing any competition..He was deep into his own boats by then) with a deep tunnel and steeper dihedral for rough water. It was a good 5 mph slower than Reggie's but rode much better.... in hindsight this is the hull we should have taken to Havasu that year. I also had a new sprint Seebold at that time and used this one for rougher races along the east coast...and for powerhead break in. I let a racer and friend who worked for me at Shadow run it at a local event. He flipped it right next to me ...and totaled it. We were gearing up for the 30' Shadow Cat production and had a complete boat plant building our 21 Challenger/ Shadows at that time, but "All the kings horses", couldn't fix that one.[/QUOTe

    The very best picture you have ever posted Rich, bugger the Molinari !!!!!!!!!!!! Who is the owner of that Gorgeous pair of legs standing behind the Camel back?.
    She could have given Betty Grable lessons !!!!!!!!

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by lars strom View Post
    Nice looking Molinari boat and Mercury hat T2x..

    //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

    I have done some digging in my file and the fact is Renato used the first low profile/camel back design in Cardiff 1975.
    He did not have that a few weeks before Cardiff in Rotterdam.
    Here is a picture of Renatos boat (picture 2) he used at the ON World Championship race in the very rough Cardiff water.

    First picture is the winner of the race..Cees Van Der Velden in his new Marlboro/Velden/Johnson V6 2 liter.

    I was racing SE the same weekend in Cardiff and here is more about that experience..
    http://svera.se/blogg/racing-histori...nd-later-1975/

    Again..This is a very interesting thread because Molinari boats is in my opinion the most famous tunnel boat.
    I always try hard to get all the facts right.
    Have to agree with you on the "MOST FAMOUS" boat-----but he did lose the plot a bit from there on!!!!!!!!!
    Molinari boats did not continue the winning streak------better boats, [in my opinion] came along----IE: Burgess-----Seebold----Cappolini.
    You should know this Lasse----Did a Molinari ever win anything again after 1985 ?????? enlighten us please.
    In the 2 litre world series i don't believe one of his boats ever won the championship------in fact, i don't ever remember a Molinari winning a single race---------do you, ??????

  3. #48
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    [QUOTE=lars strom;2431003]Well Jackie..Thats the way it was..OMC asked Renato to go back to wooden boats to keep the boat building cost down..again I was there and pretty involved with OMC as an exclusive dealer.[/QUOTE

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    [QUOTE=lars strom;2431003]Well Jackie..Thats the way it was..OMC asked Renato to go back to wooden boats to keep the boat building cost down..again I was there and pretty involved with OMC as an exclusive dealer.[/QUOTE

    O.K. Lasse-------so how many tin boats did Renato make------who raced them---and which countries did they get to!!!!!!!!
    My contention is ---there was only ever the one.
    The other Tin boat, was one Bill Brown had built with changeable sponsons, That was also a LEMON.

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    Hey Guys This is the best read I've had in a long time ---- Thanks for all the info and entertainment ! Gary

  6. #51
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    [QUOTE=jackie wilson;2431285]
    Quote Originally Posted by T2x View Post
    The very best picture you have ever posted Rich, bugger the Molinari !!!!!!!!!!!! Who is the owner of that Gorgeous pair of legs standing behind the Camel back?.
    She could have given Betty Grable lessons !!!!!!!!
    Buggering Molinari's is a British thing I guess..... What boarding school did you attend to learn that?

    As far as the "Gorgeous pair of legs"...... my glasses MUST be different than yours.......Frankly, my legs looked better and I was wearing jeans....... Perhaps I should retract that statement , what with all your "buggering" thoughts!
    20 Foot Switzer Wing 2 X S3000 (Dust'n the Wind II)
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by lars strom View Post
    Jackie..you lost interest of Molinari boats when Renato left Mercury late 1976 for Evinrude and you know that OMC did not spend much time/money to race in Mercury´s 2 liter class.
    There is one more thing you don't know..

    I raced a Saffa sponsored Molinari with a 2 liter Evinrude V-6 looper 1978 at Idroscalo..I finished second after Renato in a similar boat but ahead of all the ON Mercury drivers.!!
    This was a test race for me to get ready for Paris 6 Hours 1978. I drove the Saffa OZ Molinari team boat for Renato there together with Angelo Vassena.

    I am working on this story and it is ready pretty soon..
    Wrong again Lasse-----i never lost interest in Molinari boats, In fact my son Mark, [who you know quite well, as you live fairly close to each other in Stuart] bought a brand new in the early 80's [if the little grey cells are working correctly] which was no match for the Burgess or the Seebolds of that period. Peter Erikson thought he could make the boat competitive and managed to total it in Bristol.

    Contrary to your belief that OMC did not spend time or money on 2 liters which was a recognised UIM formulated class and NOT__and i quote----- MERCURY"S 2 liter Class. Cees had a shed load of 2 liters and in fact he won a heat in the German leg of the race before the motor puked in the second heat.
    By 1978 I was getting the Cosworth into the racing scene and did not see or even remember the 1978 Milan race [ probably my selective memory]
    OMC had a perfectly good 2 liter but decided against using it in the series on a regular basis.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by lars strom View Post
    This is off topic but I have to remind you of this Jackie and I have your answer also..!!..
    (A message from me to Jackie some time ago)
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well..As an OMC dealer/racer I can clearly see and understand the OMC way of thinking

    OMC never made a 2 liter production V-6..

    The first 200 hp production V-6 1976 was 2.4 liter..cross flow design
    OMC used that block for OZ racing around the same time..

    Next generation production V-6 loopers was 2.7 and 3.0 liter..
    Well...that block was to heavy for OZ racing..

    Instead of making a special race 2 liter V-6 ON engine , OMC stepped up and made the first V-8 race engine..and followed up with a production V-8.
    I think that was the right thing to do..

    See..Merc started with the 3.4 liter OZ V-6.. T-4 ..(First race Bristol 79)..
    A few years later the production 3.4 liter V-6 came...That engine was never a success and Merc pulled the plug..

    Mercs 2 liter production engine was good for racing to and it made sense to race the 2 liter class with that powerhead..
    Well..Merc stopped making the production 2 liter engine 15-20 years ago..
    F1 today is 2.5 liter and the new Optimax SST 200 is 2.5 liter..
    See..not even Merc want to build a "race only".. 2 liter....

    The fact is that Formula 1 boat racing today is the OZ class..not ON..!!
    Like i said before Lasse the death of powerboat racing was the OZ formula-----open ended and a runaway formula that was beyond control, simply because there are no rules.
    ON had a maximum of 2 liters-----was a recognised UIM class.
    OZ was to give the misfits time on the water-----an obscure experimental class-----Anarchy set in-----death followed quite rapidly.
    The T4 was the end , of Mercury race development,not the start Lasse.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by lars strom View Post
    This is off topic but I have to remind you of this Jackie and I have your answer also..!!..
    (A message from me to Jackie some time ago)
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well..As an OMC dealer/racer I can clearly see and understand the OMC way of thinking

    OMC never made a 2 liter production V-6..

    The first 200 hp production V-6 1976 was 2.4 liter..cross flow design
    OMC used that block for OZ racing around the same time..

    Next generation production V-6 loopers was 2.7 and 3.0 liter..
    Well...that block was to heavy for OZ racing..

    Instead of making a special race 2 liter V-6 ON engine , OMC stepped up and made the first V-8 race engine..and followed up with a production V-8.
    I think that was the right thing to do..

    See..Merc started with the 3.4 liter OZ V-6.. T-4 ..(First race Bristol 79)..
    A few years later the production 3.4 liter V-6 came...That engine was never a success and Merc pulled the plug..

    Mercs 2 liter production engine was good for racing to and it made sense to race the 2 liter class with that powerhead..
    Well..Merc stopped making the production 2 liter engine 15-20 years ago..
    F1 today is 2.5 liter and the new Optimax SST 200 is 2.5 liter..
    See..not even Merc want to build a "race only".. 2 liter....

    The fact is that Formula 1 boat racing today is the OZ class..not ON..!!
    ...
    Sorry to harp on about this Lasse------------There were enough OMC 2 litres floating around to sink a battleship------if it wasn't a 'PRODUCTION RUN" there must have been an army of technicians somewhere in the world cobbling them together !!!!!!!!!!
    Cees had close to 40 of them in his workshop in Holland, and i can't imagine this was the lot !!!!!!!

    You said it yourself. The first admitted production run was a V6 OMC of 2.4 litres, we could have lived with that and made that the ceiling 2 and a half liters.
    But no that wasn't very competitive either, so next comes the 2.6 loopers, then the 3 litres which weren't much bloody good either---too heavy------too slow is more likely. Lets put 2 of 'em on a single hull [ it's allowed because the class is OZ ]
    Seebold and Bentz made a right mess of that idea by Pissing on Renato from a dizzy height with a little old tried and tested V6 of 2.4 liters. But pride had been dented and muscle was needed so you made a V8 of umpteen litres .
    Mercury would not come out to play so you had to start your own series [ only OMC V8's allowed] if anything else turned up sue the pants of 'em.
    But there were no jockeys to ride these damn things-----never mind----OMC had a few million dollars laying idle----lets hire some of the 2 liter drivers----------still not enough------lets raid the lower classes, ie; the E class.
    This is where it was totally wrong-----to put E Class drivers [ under 1,000cc ] straight into an OZ [ totally unlimited class] boat.
    As you well know -----carnage followed----but got swept under the table. The money was flowing and that made everything alright .
    How long did it last Lasse?? -----3 years maximum ?? and then died --like the dinosaur it was.
    Not to worry -----with a bit of skulduggery from Herr Fraulin and the UIM we can nick the 2 litre series and install Velden and San Germano and change the rules to suit us----------which exactly is what you did.
    The Fonda series was always the class act and OMC could never understand how come it was so much better than their series.
    The answer is so simple-----------IT WAS RUN TO A FORMULA----AND REGULATED-----CONTROLLED-----HAD RULES.
    OZ is not formula 1---------Look at car racing today------Runs to a formula-----regulated ----controlled------not an open disaster waiting to happen like the V8's were.
    Last word-----I don't like going down this road-----i remember what i had and how much i enjoyed it, i remember the camaraderie , and the 30 years pleasure i took from the sport.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackie wilson View Post
    ...
    Sorry to harp on about this Lasse------------There were enough OMC 2 litres floating around to sink a battleship------if it wasn't a 'PRODUCTION RUN" there must have been an army of technicians somewhere in the world cobbling them together !!!!!!!!!!
    Cees had close to 40 of them in his workshop in Holland, and i can't imagine this was the lot !!!!!!!

    You said it yourself. The first admitted production run was a V6 OMC of 2.4 litres, we could have lived with that and made that the ceiling 2 and a half liters.
    But no that wasn't very competitive either, so next comes the 2.6 loopers, then the 3 litres which weren't much bloody good either---too heavy------too slow is more likely. Lets put 2 of 'em on a single hull [ it's allowed because the class is OZ ]
    Seebold and Bentz made a right mess of that idea by Pissing on Renato from a dizzy height with a little old tried and tested V6 of 2.4 liters. But pride had been dented and muscle was needed so you made a V8 of umpteen litres .
    Mercury would not come out to play so you had to start your own series [ only OMC V8's allowed] if anything else turned up sue the pants of 'em.
    But there were no jockeys to ride these damn things-----never mind----OMC had a few million dollars laying idle----lets hire some of the 2 liter drivers----------still not enough------lets raid the lower classes, ie; the E class.
    This is where it was totally wrong-----to put E Class drivers [ under 1,000cc ] straight into an OZ [ totally unlimited class] boat.
    As you well know -----carnage followed----but got swept under the table. The money was flowing and that made everything alright .
    How long did it last Lasse?? -----3 years maximum ?? and then died --like the dinosaur it was.
    Not to worry -----with a bit of skulduggery from Herr Fraulin and the UIM we can nick the 2 litre series and install Velden and San Germano and change the rules to suit us----------which exactly is what you did.
    The Fonda series was always the class act and OMC could never understand how come it was so much better than their series.
    The answer is so simple-----------IT WAS RUN TO A FORMULA----AND REGULATED-----CONTROLLED-----HAD RULES.
    OZ is not formula 1---------Look at car racing today------Runs to a formula-----regulated ----controlled------not an open disaster waiting to happen like the V8's were.
    Last word-----I don't like going down this road-----i remember what i had and how much i enjoyed it, i remember the camaraderie , and the 30 years pleasure i took from the sport.

    Jackie:

    Very well written and I completely agree. A true Formula prevents unrestricted and unchecked "deviations"....Why, without them people would be sandwiching full fledged F1 motors into Champ boats......umm.....errr...oops..... I'll go hide now.
    Last edited by T2x; 01-30-2013 at 08:43 AM.
    20 Foot Switzer Wing 2 X S3000 (Dust'n the Wind II)
    !6 foot Wood Eltro Vee (2X Merc 1500's) (Dust'n the Wind IV)
    15 foot Powercat 15C (2 X Merc 1500) (Dust'n the Wind III)
    (Single engine boats are lacking something)

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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by lars strom View Post
    Is it something in the French food that make you dream up all those story's Jackie...???? 40..two liter OMC powerheads in Veldens shop..!!
    See picture..that is the hand build OMC two liter powerhead..very few was made..maybe a 5 or 6.


    I like three things with France..Vin, Michelin tires and Paris Six Hours..!!

    Maybe you need to move back the Island again..!!..



    Here is M. Werner's nice Molinari in the best racing class ever..The OE class..always the largest
    class at the bigger races but Merc did not make a good engine for OE class.

    OMC supported this class for many many years but Merc just did not want to do that.
    Merc people told me the production 3 cylinder block was not good enuff to make it a winner in OE class. I was also told that the hand made looper block Merc built ones was to expensive !! so Merc gave up the class.

    The simple fact is that OMC was always playing catch up and couldn't produce a satisfactory motor for a standardized class as Jackie said. The only competitive v4 and v6 engines in the States and Canada were custom built by Ellie Langdon on Long Island for Jack Leek's use. Each time Ellie built something new and produced a half dozen variants, Merc built 25 better mousetraps...in house. Mercury's engineering department was enormous, OMC's was housed in a garage on a side street. This is a great tribute to Ellie and his genius...but also a realistic appraisal of the true state of affairs.

    As far as the V8 experiment, Jackie is also correct in that it was basically an uncontested self aggrandizing racing series. When the V8's came up against true competition in the Offshore arena they either imploded, or broke the transoms off the some of the undersized hulls they were bolted to (in an effort to show some kind of speed). Merc's mega T4 based monsters weren't that much better, but at least they finished races in spite of a rather anemic mounting setup. (I almost lost one in the World's at Key West as it dangled by it's cables and wiring coming back from the Tortugas...but the powerhead was intact).

    At the end of the day, the factory wars did advance the state of the art in both motors and hull design to the point that we have had virtual stagnation in the 3+ decades since they ended...and we all had a chance to live through a magically cockeyed period with true "Brothers in Arms".
    20 Foot Switzer Wing 2 X S3000 (Dust'n the Wind II)
    !6 foot Wood Eltro Vee (2X Merc 1500's) (Dust'n the Wind IV)
    15 foot Powercat 15C (2 X Merc 1500) (Dust'n the Wind III)
    (Single engine boats are lacking something)

    16 foot Lee Craft Merc S 3000-(Gold Dust II)
    (The exception proves the rule)
    Obsolete and Proud of it

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  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by lars strom View Post
    This is something all Merc race fans need to pay attention to..

    We can all agree to that Mr. Bill..(Billy Seebold) is by far the most famous Merc racing man.

    He has done more for Merc racing than any other person.
    Mr. Bill is always friendly and talk racing to anyone that likes to listening.

    Ask him why his choice of outboard today powering his Parker CC is a Yamaha V-6.
    I am going to save you from the picture I have when Mr. Bill is waxing his new Yamaha.
    To me the three most talented boat racers of all time were named "Billy S......".

    Schumacher, Seebold, Sirois.....

    IMHO Schumacher is a close third..and I can't rank the other two...
    20 Foot Switzer Wing 2 X S3000 (Dust'n the Wind II)
    !6 foot Wood Eltro Vee (2X Merc 1500's) (Dust'n the Wind IV)
    15 foot Powercat 15C (2 X Merc 1500) (Dust'n the Wind III)
    (Single engine boats are lacking something)

    16 foot Lee Craft Merc S 3000-(Gold Dust II)
    (The exception proves the rule)
    Obsolete and Proud of it

  14. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by lars strom View Post
    I was at OMC engineering-racing many many times over the years both in Brygge and Waukegan and it was way more than a garage..!!..

    OMC and Evinrude racing was very good to me and my dealership.
    No argument...but their best powerheads came out of a garage.
    20 Foot Switzer Wing 2 X S3000 (Dust'n the Wind II)
    !6 foot Wood Eltro Vee (2X Merc 1500's) (Dust'n the Wind IV)
    15 foot Powercat 15C (2 X Merc 1500) (Dust'n the Wind III)
    (Single engine boats are lacking something)

    16 foot Lee Craft Merc S 3000-(Gold Dust II)
    (The exception proves the rule)
    Obsolete and Proud of it

  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by lars strom View Post
    My experience with different forums around the world is when your "log in" name is a Merc model..you never going to agree to the OMC way..
    Actually that's not a log in name. My formal name is "Twister Two Eckx" ...my folks called me Rich Luhrs to simplify it. Oops! I just gave myself a paper cut and there's some black blood on my keyboard.....
    20 Foot Switzer Wing 2 X S3000 (Dust'n the Wind II)
    !6 foot Wood Eltro Vee (2X Merc 1500's) (Dust'n the Wind IV)
    15 foot Powercat 15C (2 X Merc 1500) (Dust'n the Wind III)
    (Single engine boats are lacking something)

    16 foot Lee Craft Merc S 3000-(Gold Dust II)
    (The exception proves the rule)
    Obsolete and Proud of it

  16. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by T2x View Post
    The simple fact is that OMC was always playing catch up and couldn't produce a satisfactory motor for a standardized class as Jackie said. The only competitive v4 and v6 engines in the States and Canada were custom built by Ellie Langdon on Long Island for Jack Leek's use. Each time Ellie built something new and produced a half dozen variants, Merc built 25 better mousetraps...in house. Mercury's engineering department was enormous, OMC's was housed in a garage on a side street. This is a great tribute to Ellie and his genius...but also a realistic appraisal of the true state of affairs.

    As far as the V8 experiment, Jackie is also correct in that it was basically an uncontested self aggrandizing racing series. When the V8's came up against true competition in the Offshore arena they either imploded, or broke the transoms off the some of the undersized hulls they were bolted to (in an effort to show some kind of speed). Merc's mega T4 based monsters weren't that much better, but at least they finished races in spite of a rather anemic mounting setup. (I almost lost one in the World's at Key West as it dangled by it's cables and wiring coming back from the Tortugas...but the powerhead was intact).

    At the end of the day, the factory wars did advance the state of the art in both motors and hull design to the point that we have had virtual stagnation in the 3+ decades since they ended...and we all had a chance to live through a magically cockeyed period with true "Brothers in Arms".
    Rich,

    It's a total surprise that Ellie ever built V-4's & V-6's for Jack. I knew Ellie & had had his hand in to many race engine projects for EORA (Eastern Outboard Racing Ass.) on Long Island. I even ran a 49 c.i. modified 3 cylinder on a hydro for a guy out on the Island. Ellie also did most of Bill Fales machine work. OMC had an extensive race shop on the top floor of the Engineering building in Waukegan. Several technicians, Ziggy, Mouse, Mike J , Mike Kukla, Ken Solar, Ward Cox, and others that my fading memory forgets that built the engines for us that ran the various factory war races. All powerheads were dyno run & assigned to drivers by those results, so I doubt that Ellie ever built anything other then a sample that Jack could run on a dyno then perhaps duplicate what Ellie found & did. You'll have to provide proof otherwise for me to believe that Ellie participated in a more involved way.

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