Reversion HELP!!!

[23check]

Ok, I'm not sure if I do have a issue with reversion or not. I know I got water in my oil and the machine shop couldnt find anything wrong. I took my manifolds and had them pressure tested and they passed just fine. I am running stainless marine manifolds with 3" above stock risers. I have a bbc 502 in a 23' checkmate which means the downward angle for exhaust/water to exit the boat is fairly dramtic. Recently I put new bearings in the motor, got it back in the boat, put 7 hours for breakin on it, changed the oil and old oil looked fine. Went back out on the water, heard valves start tapping and shut it down. Looked in breathers and it was milky. Checked the dipstick and found milky oil there too. Towed back in and here I am now. When I had bearings replaced I had a comp cam iput n as well. Which I hear may be my issue.

I have a very talented welder whom I deal with and I was thinking of taking stainless tubing and welding to risers to lengthen the distance where exaust exits the riser, entering the bellows. Would this be a appropriate solution to reversion or would the water exit need to be extended as well??? I have never even heard of this problem before today so all your input and suggestions will be greatly appreciated. It is the end of August and my whole 454 502 upgrade has been a VERY lengthy process and I would like to get on the water (with no worries) sometime soon.

Thanks for all your help
TJ

[roadkill636]

head gasket ??????
exhaust manifold gaskets ???????

[23check]

shop said head gasket were fine and manifold gasket were new and with the stainless marine set up water dont even hit the riser gasket. It dont exit until the end of the riser

[flabum1017]

Those risers are known to give way when they get past three years or so. How's your oil cooler?

[23check]

oil cooler also tested good

[mrcrsr]

did you run the engine outside the boat??? look for water being pulled back into the risers, do you have a stock cam?? it could also be the oil cooler

[Raceman]

..........When I had bearings replaced I had a comp cam iput n as well. Which I hear may be my issue.

I think you're on the right track with the cam change being suspect. Would it be possible to dry the pipes out and try it, or would it be a fire hazard?

[dale robertson]

Did you pull the plugs and see if there was water on any of them? How long did it run to get that much water in the oil ? It could be reversion, but if the oil is getting milky real fast, it sounds more like it is coming from somewhere else.

[Raceman]

Here's what I ran into with the 540 in one of my Pachangas. I usually assemble my own engines, but this time decided to let the racecar shop who did the machine work put the shortblock together since I had other projects at the time and ALSO since it was the first motor I'd ever had O-ringed and the first set of custom copper head gaskets.

Put the engine in and the oil was milky almost instantly. Couldn't find a source, and the engine was running fine before the 1/4" stroker crank and .030 overbore was done from the previous 502. I took it back to the machine shop and he said I must've bolted the intake on crooked (I've been puttin' my own stuff together since the 60's and I've never seen or heard of a crooked intake causin a water leak) and so he charged 350 to R & R it and run the engine on his test stand, reporting NO water in the oil. I put it back in the boat and instant milk. So I call the machine shop and he's indignant and says he's through.

I pull the heads and around every one of the inner water passage holes the gasket sealer he used showed signs of blowing out toward the side of the block under the intake, just as if it'd been pressure washed off. I pulled the copper gaskets, pulled the wire O-rings out from around the cyls, stuck a set of blue Fel-Pro gaskets on it and have been running it every since. My theory is that since the test stand he ran it on had a conventional radiator with unknown cap pressure, or I don't even know for sure that he had a cap on it tight........... the pressure wasn't equal to what the pump on the Bravo could blow at the motor, so it washed out in the weakest point. I think if he'd O-ringed the water passages in addition to the cylinders that there wouldn't have been a problem, but he told me later when I called back to bitch about my wasted 350 bucks that NOBODY O rings water passages.

So........ I'd still have to consider reversion as a primary suspect since you changed the camshaft and there's no question that a camshaft with a lot of overlap will cause it, and if that doesn't work I'd take a look at the head gaskets.

[Ziemer]

I think you're on the right track with the cam change being suspect. Would it be possible to dry the pipes out and try it, or would it be a fire hazard?

Just went through a similar problem on my Pantera, and ended up having Stainless modify my risers/pipes, to an almost "dry" setup.

Get in touch with Stainless Marine and give them the specs on the new cam. They can tell you if you have too much cam for the particular manifold/riser setup you currently have. If you find you've got too much overlap, they can/will modify your pipes to a dry system. It's not worth trying to have a "local welder" do it. To make them "dry" they will add to the inner and outer pipes and extend them thru the transom, therefore you will no longer have the bellows and tips. You can keep them fully dry where the exhaust and water never mix (really load) or you can do what I did which is let the water mix at the very end of the pipes outside the transom.

I sent mine back to Stainless along with a few measurements and they cam back looking like new, and it cost me around $900.00 total door to door.

[mrcrsr]

i had the same problems w/ the stainless marine stuff, 32 pachanga w/ 468's, running the engine on the stand you could see water pulsing back and forth in the exhaust, i used comp camps xm series(extreme marine) cams that were fairly mild, dry exhaust will solve the problem but it is loud!!!

[CharlieB53]

Color me stupid, but........

I fail to understand the water 'reversion' milking the oil!

If he had a problem of water cooling and warping exhaust valves I could understand that, but it would take a volume of water to get past the rings in order to emulsify into the oil, and you would HAVE TO notice misfires, it just would NOT run near right.

A coolant passage leaking from the intake or head to an oil return would milk the oil with a quickness.

Somebody needs to take a magnifying glass and a strong light to the gaskets and find that leak. And pressure test any cooler.

Of course the shop is going to 'claim' that the head gaskets and intake gaskets were 'fine', I'd still like to inspect them!

[23check]

OK here is the deal. Machine shop called today and said the engine is finished. Dynoed it at 499hp and 521 torque. No problems what so ever. Of course with dry headers. when they took it apart this time said one of the bearings were going out already (7 hours). The first time they did it said they resized 1 rod. The one this time is opposite the one from last time. This time all new bearings, all rods r & r, all new gaskets. Guess we will see what happens... Here is what gets me. First time they did it I was told the "reused" the intake gasket because it looked new. I dont know why you would do that!!!? I spent a little over 1700 with cam, bearings, and oil pump and i supplied bearings and pump. That was my first instinct, the intake gasket. I checked the oil and powersteering cooler for leaks and the manifolds and both held 24 psi.
Also i was told with reversion it is something that happens slowly but continiously at low rpm. Not all at once like it did. I ran the boat 2 days with a total of 7-8 hours with no problems at all. Change oil and looked great. Filled with oil, off to river, idled for 10 mins, ran for 5-10 and instant water in oil.
Here is the summit part # for the cam installed CCA-01-456-8. I'm not sure where to get the spec for the overlap and even still i dont know how much is "too much".
And Charlie, I will def!!! get ALL gaskets when I pick her up tomorrow

[Greg Moss]

well I don't think it's reversion either. First it it was that much water would hydraulic the motor before it got to the oil. What I would do is pressure test the motor. block all the output water passages to the manifolds and risers also block the input from the sea water pump and hook up a pressure tester to the motor either on the input from the sea water pump or one of the outputs to the manifolds. Pressure the block up and check it to see if you have any leaks. I WOULD DO THIS BEFORE YOU PUT THE MOTOR BACK INTO THE BOAT. You can modify a pressure tester from a radiator tester. I always run them on a test stand before I install them also easier to fix out side the boat than inside. If the risers were bad you would see water tracks in the exhaust ports.

[flabum1017]

24PSI is not enough to pressure test the cooler, and it needs to be tested HOT at around 200*.

Milky oil can be caused by many things, but let's first describe "milky". You described the "breathers" as milky, not the oil itself. The breathers can get milky from a very small amount of water caused by reversion. During reversion, water will back up into the cylinder while it's running and force it's way into the crankcase. Sometimes, a miss will not occur, but sufficient water will pass to create a milky residue in the breathers and oil cap. The oil will still look good.

Now, if the oil itself has become milky, then you have a much bigger leak such as a warped head, bad head gasket, bad intake gasket, cracked/rotted intake manifold, cracked block, leaking oil cooler or cracked heads.