How many would buy a modernized 21' Skater copy?

**mjw930** · 09-03-2016, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by JPEROG

The guys that get the most done are the guys that are "teachers"-you try and duplicate the knowledge needed for production and yes having employees is a massive hassle but its the only way to get a lot done in the short lifespans that we have here on earth. Todd and Karen know what they are up against in that arena and its what holds back expansion for 90% of the businesses out there.

Joe

Agreed and they seem to be doing a lot to that end. Todd's crew is tight and Todd has taught them a lot, to the point where he's finally able to lay out the day's work and have the confidence it will get done and get done right without him directing them all day. There are certain tasks only Todd will do for a multitude of reasons and considering their size it seems to be the right mix of work and delegation. I think they are at a point now where Karen can run the front of the house, the crew can handle 90% of the work needed to actually build the boats and Todd can focus on new "projects" to grow the business, hence this thread

**AZMIDLYF** · 09-03-2016, 04:23 PM

The 21 Skaters were/are sort of a 'tweener hull. It can run with the best lake/river runners with like power but still run and hide when the water gets snotty. If your changes can correct some of its quirks then it should be a winner. But, like JPEROG stated, market demographics could be a problem.

**Capt.Insane-o** · 09-03-2016, 06:42 PM

Okay, I'll bite. The 21 Skater is a has been that never quite was. It was never good for anything but a shooter over moderately rough water. Honestly the only good thing about a 21 Skater is it's namesake. The 24 was better, and the 28 was waaaay better than the 24. So there. I'd take a euro boat over the 21 or 24 any day.

**aggiestckl** · 09-03-2016, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Capt.Insane-o

Okay, I'll bite. The 21 Skater is a has been that never quite was. It was never good for anything but a shooter over moderately rough water. Honestly the only good thing about a 21 Skater is it's namesake. The 24 was better, and the 28 was waaaay better than the 24. So there. I'd take a euro boat over the 21 or 24 any day.

I agree..

I saw a line of Canestraris which were 21 skater splashes lined up in Sweden.. believe they came from South America or something.. They didn't look great

**Spectre Powerboats** · 09-03-2016, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by aggiestckl

Build a 24' single like a twister. 21 Skater is feels slow and awkward in comparison. They don't turn well either

We are trying to keep the cost down. Epoxy, carbon, kevlar and vacuum bagged boats will almost double the cost. We offer a 750 lb package for the Talon 22 SS with all of this. It is about $15,000 more dollars. I have had not takers yet.

**Spectre Powerboats** · 09-03-2016, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by xb03fs

22/23 with a 400r would be cool I bet

We are working with a 24 right now. That is a separate project from this.

**Spectre Powerboats** · 09-03-2016, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by JPEROG

Todd,

Most people don't understand how much different the 21 that you are talking about building will be from an original. Just the fact that it will be widened will change so many of its handling characteristics and acceleration capability. Are you thinking 1100 as a weight target?

Joe

I think you are right. This would be the fix to all the bad habits the original 21 has. It will be able to run over some pretty rough water.

**Spectre Powerboats** · 09-03-2016, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Speed Jr.

A light 24-25 ft length with wide tunnel boat that can handle the heavy single outboard (current motors) would be the way of the future imho.....If it could be built around 30-35k I think you'd have a winner.....

That is probably where the 24-25 will be price wise and try to keep it at the 1400 range.

**AZMIDLYF** · 09-03-2016, 09:01 PM

The 24 with a 400R(ROS would be a dream) I believe would still have a decent twins type of acceleration to it and a nice top end as well. From a single.

**mjw930** · 09-03-2016, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by Screaming Eagle Boats

That is probably where the 24-25 will be price wise and try to keep it at the 1400 range.

With the 24, do you think adding a center pod for single motor setups would have any advantages?

A 24 / 25 that can run well at all speeds with a single 400R, handle the rougher stuff, run good numbers and come in around $80k turn key could be a VERY popular setup IMHO.

Once you get into six figures it's going to be a tough sell and when you start talking about $40k-$50k just in motors on twins it's hard to stay under $100k.

**MeCapnDave** · 09-03-2016, 11:34 PM

It would interesting to see a comparison between two of the newly built boats. When you watch Adam trucking along in his Talon at over 100 effortlessly, with no hop, that is the best sales video you could ever produce for a TALON. A new and improved 21 (skater Type) would be an exceptional boat as well. You would have a chance to tweak the design and change it for the better. If you've ever seen Charlie and Kim rolling up the river in theirs, You would stroke a check in a heartbeat for a boat that runs like that. Charlie has got that thing absolutely flying !! Either one of these boats would be a cherished boat in anyone's garage. Is there a market for this size boat? I think there is. My question to you as a manufacturer is, Will the R&D time and dollars be an investment that will pay off for you guys. What would be the break even sales be to support such a project? Can you offer these at a price point that people would buy and you could make a profit at? Could a racing sanctioning body, (OPA) create a class of budget racing with this size boat? Would this come at the expense of Talon sales? If its proven that the Talon design is a better boat, both in looks and performance, would that kill your Skater sales? You very well may be producing your biggest competition. Not a bad thing. Everyone is screaming for the 400R on a single. Thats the wrong motor for these boats. The gear case is too massive . The 400 ROS would be the best motor for one of these, If you can stomach no warranty on a 40k engine. After seeing the quality that goes into your boats when I visited your shop, I'm positive that the design you come up with will be just as top notch as your Talons !! What's the progress on your 24 molds we delivered? Will this be a part of the new boat?

**Spectre Powerboats** · 09-04-2016, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by mjw930

With the 24, do you think adding a center pod for single motor setups would have any advantages?

A 24 / 25 that can run well at all speeds with a single 400R, handle the rougher stuff, run good numbers and come in around $80k turn key could be a VERY popular setup IMHO.

Once you get into six figures it's going to be a tough sell and when you start talking about $40k-$50k just in motors on twins it's hard to stay under $100k.

The advantage of the center pod is, that it makes the boats plane easier, less beating on the gearcases (single engine use), helps eliminate the hopping, turns better and etc. The only down fall I have seen is that it compresses less air and that effects the top end speeds. I am not all a bout the top speed numbers as I am more abouy an all around performing hot rod. I was out yesterday and with the boat traffic and boat slop we never saw top end, actually 10 mph from it. Truthfully 99% of my boating is below 100 mph. One reason, have my family with me most of the time and two, traffic on weekends makes it unsafe to do where I am at.

**Spectre Powerboats** · 09-04-2016, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by MeCapnDave

It would interesting to see a comparison between two of the newly built boats. When you watch Adam trucking along in his Talon at over 100 effortlessly, with no hop, that is the best sales video you could ever produce for a TALON. A new and improved 21 (skater Type) would be an exceptional boat as well. You would have a chance to tweak the design and change it for the better. If you've ever seen Charlie and Kim rolling up the river in theirs, You would stroke a check in a heartbeat for a boat that runs like that. Charlie has got that thing absolutely flying !! Either one of these boats would be a cherished boat in anyone's garage. Is there a market for this size boat? I think there is. My question to you as a manufacturer is, Will the R&D time and dollars be an investment that will pay off for you guys. What would be the break even sales be to support such a project? Can you offer these at a price point that people would buy and you could make a profit at? Could a racing sanctioning body, (OPA) create a class of budget racing with this size boat? Would this come at the expense of Talon sales? If its proven that the Talon design is a better boat, both in looks and performance, would that kill your Skater sales? You very well may be producing your biggest competition. Not a bad thing. Everyone is screaming for the 400R on a single. Thats the wrong motor for these boats. The gear case is too massive . The 400 ROS would be the best motor for one of these, If you can stomach no warranty on a 40k engine. After seeing the quality that goes into your boats when I visited your shop, I'm positive that the design you come up with will be just as top notch as your Talons !! What's the progress on your 24 molds we delivered? Will this be a part of the new boat?

The reason I considered this originally is that on the East Coast the 2 most popular hulls in this size range was the Talon 22 and the Skater 21. We are constantly working on improving the Talon 22 without losing the beautiful looks of that hull. I know I can improve on the 21 as well and I know there has been a lot of request for it. It is kind of a Chevy vs Ford vs Dodge deal. Some like the Talons over the Skater and some like the Skater over the Talon. This would be a way to offer best of both worlds.
The biggest hang up we have is the cost of this venture. Probably in labor and material alone will cost in the $25k range to get a running plug ready. Hopefully less, but would rather be on the high side. To build the mold will cost just as much, so let's say this is a $50k project. In these smaller boats, there is very little profit. I'll just say it now. If I sell a Talon 22 bare hull with some hardware on it for $22k, there is about $4k left after I pay my crew, materials and the consumables. That does not pay for the 16,000 sf building, electric, insurance, taxes, secretary, etc. I have 6 great full time employees and about that many part times when I need them. They are very good at what they do and I pay them good for it. Good help is hard to find and I have learned when you find them, you do what you can to keep them. As many of you have seen that have visited the shop, they are good and thorough at what they do. If it was not for our custom work and repair work, we would not be able to make it on new builds alone at this time. I believe this will change over the years as we get more models available.
I would love to see a class just for a 24-25 with a single 300xs. It would be a more affordable class for those of us who want to run offshore, but can't afford a Super Stock. The plan would be to offer a turnkey boat for around $80,000 or less if possible. I would race in this class in a heartbeat.
The 24 molds we received as you know needed a lot of TLC which we are working on. The first deck should get started late this next week or the week after. I plan to do a lot of the same kind of changes to the 24 like we have talked about with the 21.
We are trying to be very cautious to not overwhelm my crew, my wife and myself. Also, trying to be very careful from a financial stand point to not become a statistic like other boat companies have.
The interest of the boating community will be a lot of the influence of what directions we go. Sorry for the ramble, just trying to answer everyone’s questions. Thanks Todd

**wex777** · 09-05-2016, 09:36 AM

I have a 21 Xtreme with a 300XS and finding insurance was a nightmare. I need proof of insurance to enter poker run type events. The boat is too small and too fast for almost all insurance company's. I would call a few insurance companies and see if they would insure a 22, 23, or 24 with 300 to 400 hp outboards and then partially base my decision of how big to make the boat instead.

**mjw930** · 09-05-2016, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by wex777

I have a 21 Xtreme with a 300XS and finding insurance was a nightmare. I need proof of insurance to enter poker run type events. The boat is too small and too fast for almost all insurance company's. I would call a few insurance companies and see if they would insure a 22, 23, or 24 with 300 to 400 hp outboards and then partially base my decision of how big to make the boat instead.

I went through a similar search looking to make sure I could insure a 22 Talon with a 300XS and found that some of the larger insurers use a calculator, HP / length (not the actual formula but both numbers are entered and the rate class is output). Considering this plus many shootouts, LOTO in particular, have a 22' minimum makes lengthening the modified boat to 22' a significant advantage.