Printable View
With all of the extensive 'backyard' rebuilds and repairs going on, how many have resulted in a major failure that you are familiar with? By rebuilds and repairs I am talking about coring, transoms, stringers, etc. What failed and to what did you attribute the failure to? Design, material, workmanship, etc?
Just guessing here but I would put workmanship at the very top of any failures list !!, not using the materials properly and skimping on resin would be a very big part of that !Quote:
Originally Posted by One Oldman
Next would be using the wrong materials that would be best suited for that particular job .
The combination of both happens everyday even in the boat manufacturing industry quite regularly and more often that you would want to believe !!
anyone willing to step up and discuss a failure they experienced or witnessed?
Have witnessed a few bad jobs here looking at some of the photos but said nothing ! So there area few at odd times ! Over building is a good way of hiding and covering up potential faults ! !Quote:
Originally Posted by boatermike
No one on here has ever done anything correctly, and every rebuild is a failure waiting to happen according to some
negative posters on here.
Personally, I have seen very, very, few failure prone projects done by guys on here. The vast majority of the work is done with durability and longevity in mind. Remember, Just because it is not your way does not mean it is wrong.....
Go thru the threads archives and see the many fabulous builds and watch how many years of service and how hard these boats are used, and then judge the skill and materials that went into them. The evidence speaks for it's self. :thumbsup:
Most of the failures I have witnessed are caused by the self proclaimed industry experts not considering the end use and required durability of the product when designing and constructing it. The bottom line, is all they can see from their desks. Profits and greed cause more failures than any thing else.....Don't place blame where it is not deserved.
this guy tunnels is a kill joy.
Most homegrown failures are the result of someone just trying to get the boat usable for the next few weekends, or the summer. It only has to go out for a few more trips. It fails and is discarded. Alum plates and threaded rod are the most common ones you will see. Trying to save a weak transom. Stringers just tabbed in, floors just glassed on the perimeter or just screwed down. At the top of the list is a paint job where house paint is used. You see them at the boat ramp on the weekends. Some are just funny, some are really dangerous.
one time at the ramp I see this guy in a big old aluminum starcraft , it had an outdrive and two home made outboard brackets on either side of the outdrive, one side had a big old fat johny 90hp and the other side had a slightly younger rude 80. looked like some real stupidity . Just slid mine in and headed out. Didn't have to wait very long and here comes the old guy with the "trips". This damn thing left like a boss. Im talking he slammed it full throttle and everything hooked up and gramps was gone. I cheered loudly and gave a fist pump.
FULLY WRONG AND COMPLETELY BAD IN THE BEST WAY
^ This guy is all talk. Lots of "BOLD" letters, all CAPS, italisized, and underlining... Yet shows nothing of his own.Quote:
Originally Posted by tunnels
Most of the failures you see are from mid 80's and 90's boats using wood and not sealing it well.
I'll throw myself under the bus. I watched this resin set for about an hour with.no runs. I left for the night. It was about 55 degrees. I came back the next day to a MARATHON!!! Look at all those runners!!! Luckily they popped right off my mirror smooth gelcoat.
And to those who are curious, the whole top side got x2 layers of 6oz cloth.
My V-King had the core done by some company in Green Bay before I got it. Well, they did the core from the transom up to where the floor ends, everything in the bow was worm bedding. So when I started to fix the transom, I pulled the floor and started to look at the whole hull, I took everything out that this fiberglass shop did. Huge air bubbles under the core in between the outter hull and core. Lots of open spots, dry spots as well. And they didn't clean up the hull very well before laying the new core in. I could pop the balsa off square by square. Thats my story.
Sad story with a happy ending? Your re-work held up i'm sure.....
Just remember quality and making a good job COSTS LESS !and uses less materials and is something to be proud of !Quote:
Originally Posted by boatermike
Have seen some absolutely fabulous jobs done buy back yards and things id never have attempted myself even !
Everyones work here on S&F is perfect, that's the only type of work we do.:thumbsup::D
Monkey nuts! All of us have made a few pair of those:DQuote:
Originally Posted by home made tunnel
You know, I thought that once too. I don't any more. I would guess from his location that English is not his first language. He just doesn't always express what he means to say in a manner that is consistent with what we would expect.Quote:
Originally Posted by boatermike
I think that he has a lot of good knowledge about fiberglass and composites, and that experience shows him that in a lot of cases we do not make the most efficient use of the different resins, glass, wood, composite panels, etc that are available to the commercial boat builder (and to some extent the hobbyist) today.
His primary realm of experience may not even be in small overpowered single outboard speed boats. That doesn't make his experience irrelevant. In fact it often helps to see things from a different perspective. I think most of us could learn something from tunnels if we gave him a chance.
He clearly has a passion for boating and composites because he continues to post here even after taking a verbal (or keyboard) beating from a lot of guys over his posts.
Just because his experience is different it doesn't make him wrong, and it doesn't make us wrong. That said, I bet if he got his hands on an old Stream and restored it, it would be wicked! I have a feeling that the result wouldn't have a core. It may not even get stringers. And I bet no one would die if he hung big power on it (but he probably wouldn't have to). No more than anyone dies when they restore these boats with a truck load of plywood, biaxial glass and gp poly resin. I'm thinking the result would have the weight of a comp boat but the strength of a heavy layup lake boat!
Neither guy is wrong, but I think that poor old Tunnels is misunderstood!
I agree with some of what you say nitro. He has a wealth of product knowledge, zero people skills. And really with our type of boats, unless you own/run one you don't know them very well. They are not your typical boat...
Obviously he knows his stuff.
still in progress. funny thing how when you start a rebuild I was thinking maybe a month max, that was in 2008. I may just wait till 2018 to finish so i can say it took 10 years!Quote:
Originally Posted by XstreamVking
The worst jobs I've seen is not grinding before fibre glassing and using treated wood.
wonder what ever happened to that crazy guy AFR?
he was willing to go for it and very friendly with advice.
Hello Its time I set the record straight with my past history from when I first started in fibreglass right through unto now so I will have to take some time and dehydrate my work history from book form to fit a couple of pages ! WATCH THIS SPACE !! AS FOR PEOPLE SKILLS I TELL IT AS I SEE IT IF ITS **** THATS WHAT IT IS NOT SOME FANCY WATERED DOWN WORDS !! SIMPLE IF YOU DONT LIKE IT DONT READ IT !Quote:
Originally Posted by XstreamVking
Its more a translation problem between native English English and WORLD WIDE terrible miss understood American lingo !
I have a Chinese lady friend that is a full time professional translator and she and I can talk together for hours no problems but translating American English she has great difficulty with at times ! Even I have difficulty piecing together some of what gets written !!, try living another country for a few years and being asked to describing your own language to a non English speaking person ! have you any idea how many different forms of the English language there are ??? its well over 120 different forms !!
So have a nice day all !!
As you can see, the fiberglass forum is a good example of why he might not post here any more. We have lost many excellent glass guys over the years. Some were true fiberglass artists. When I first joined, I was in awe from what I saw and read on here.Quote:
Originally Posted by boatermike
seems like tunnels cant help himself from scolding someone every time he posts something. I guess he cant read anything without seeing the opportunity to brag about himself. the original posted question was ignored. some people just feel superior and have a strong need to project this . I know that I have heard enough from this guy and suggest he finds a different outlet for his crap. this place is for hobbiests and pro's alike and its a community. so getting along is important and chewing everyone's ass about stuff isn't gonna fly for me and I will be sure to check you and I feel no need to change my vernacular to help you understand. so ease up and say something kindly or just shut yer fly trap.
Wow...That is gorgeous...:cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by home made tunnel
You have no bus running you over there. Every good paint job has a bit of sand/buff and polish before it's done.. :thumbsup:
Yea...I have had some bus tracks on me over the years... It's usually a good learning lesson....:thumbsup:
No truer words have ever been written here and its the mindless supposed know it all dipsticks that have pissed off and scared these artists and professional people off never to return ! because they don't like being criticised and made to look foolish and ask silly mindless questions ! AND IF YOU CANT WORK OUT THE ANSWERS FOR YOUR SELF YOU SHOLDNT BE DOING THE JOB !!Quote:
Originally Posted by XstreamVking
Ive sure had my share of being spat at and kicked but its nothing at the end of the day,just get on and enjoy what we do !
Thanks man!Quote:
Originally Posted by W2F a V-King
I am one of those long term industry guys who happens to specialise in outboard raceboats and advanced composites. I like to help people with basic composites because that's how we started. In 1976, my father put a 200 Johno on our 15'8" ski boat and it didn't handle very well, and someone gave us some fibreglass advice so we could modify the bottom. Eight years later I got a job as a laminator on the build of a composite minehunter for the navy. I am not going to tell you the rest :)Quote:
Originally Posted by XstreamVking
I read the forum all the time, but I am hesitant to post. Suppliers refer customers to us for tech advice and latest techniques, yet I am treated like a goose in here if I suggest something that goes against old fashioned "wisdom". I like to help but I don't need the criticism. So I usually only post if someone is not getting the advice they need, or they don't recognise good advice from someone else. I guess I could jump up and down telling everyone how good I am so that they will be impressed and listen, but where I come from, we call a guy who does that, a wanker :D
This is such an emotional forum lmao. I wouldn't call it a failure but My backyard fight more like it when I was glassing and the oak trees decided to drop pollen. I had an orange boat for a few weeks. Never had a structural failure. Oh I moved from the city because of codes and city bs. Can't work on your boat at home and this type of garbage. Not sure if that's a fail or a win. So I moved to pay my taxes elsewhere and be free to do as I please on my property without neighbors peaking over the fence.
Just as a matter of interest what do you consider to be advanced composites ?Quote:
Originally Posted by GregAdams
I made more money working out in my garage that I did at my full time day job Boat repairs and LENGTHENING SHORT FAT BOATS plus upgrades !,lotus fiberglass sports car repairs !, making smallish thing people wanted . parts for cars , bits for boats ,parts for Vans and special sound equipment . Even did special effects items for television drama programs ! Model making for special effects ! and the list goes on and on !.
QUESTION does any one any where On this forum know how to make ORIGAMI foldable flat cored fiberglass panels ,shiny gel coated completely ALL OVER with radiused corners INTERNAL OR EXTERNAL as small as 12 mm radius without cracking the gel coat any where ??
CAN IT BE DONE ??
IS IT POSSIBLE OR NOT AND IF NOT WHY NOT ??
HAS ANYONE TRIED and if so what happened ??
using this ORIGAMI METHOD could be a way of making stringers and framing for the inside of boats !!
I guess all through my career working with composite's and making and repairing things over many years I been lucky and failures have been very minor IF ANY .
The only one I can recall was a PROBLEM WITH A catalyst pump that happened intermittently for no apparent reason , These problems are a nigh mare .
Patch's of un-catalysed resin all along the side of a big boat .This problem played over and over inside my head all night and the solution to the causes came to me in the early hours of the next morning !,
Arriving at work i went straight to the gun and removed the catalyst pump and dismantled it very very carefully to discover a bent spring holding the tiny check valve ball .A very small thing that caused very big significant problems !.
Took the spring out of its recess and straightened it , refitted back into its recess and checked that it was straight , reassembled and tested , that was 6 years ago ! the problem has never reoccurred again .
From that day forth Red dye was used in the catalyst to show immediately while spraying there is catalyst mixed into the resin .
In nz the Polyester resins used in the boat building industry has a colour change system built into it !.
Starts off blue! , add catalyst changes instantly to green !!, then slowly changes to a yellowish colour and is the working time indicator !, and just before it gels goes clear .
The biggest part of preventing failures from happening I found has been thinking and planning every possible step of what should happen if I do this ,and what could happen if I did that !!.and knowing and understanding the products you are using !!specially gel times in conjunction to catalyst ratio and type !!.
When I arrive at work normally and if we are in the process of doing a big job , My mind has been active for quite a few hours before I have got out of bed .
ACTIVE in respect of doing the job in my mind over and over before I step into the work area!
Training staff I found it very easy to make simple step by step check lists stuck up on the wall in big writing for everyone to see not only for them but myself as well listing every possible scenario and what would be needed .This kind of thinking becomes second nature after a while .
Tunnels...could you post a pic of something made using the "Origami Method" or if you don't have one maybe a sketch of the process. BTW I speak English version 151, type Boston Ma. "We park the car in the Harvard yard" :p ;) Thanks GaryQuote:
Originally Posted by tunnels
I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANY ONE DO THIS TYPE OF ORIGAMI FOLDING USING FIBREGLASS EVER ANY WHERE IN THE WORLD !!
Its very very simple !The flat parts you can use a core any sort ,any thickness even core matt or foam or thin balsa what ever , with just a thin glass fabric each side ! Anyone can do that ! the core is shaped and stopped before the corner so a thin glass is used to form the corner !, so once you know what the radius is then you have a measurement so the next core for the next flat part starts and so on ! that's all you need to know !!
Knowing and understanding completely what glass materials are available in the market place and what you can do with each of them is another part of the process .
Take a big cardboard carton and open it out flat and see how its made !! Its completely possible to repeat AND make that box from glass panels so all the information you need to know is all there right in front of you !! and all you have to do is just to copy it exactly what's there !!
The biggest longest single panel was all the fronts panels for the whole interior of the inside of a main cabin of a 38 FOOT yacht that would have taken weeks of work to do as individual panels AND THEN would have had to have be painted .
PLUS the deck was on and the only way to get everything in was through the main companion way !! so folding the whole thing so it could be taking inside the gradually opened out and everything in its place took a little thinking about .
The young Korean lady boat designer I worked with was absolutely amazed and after showing her the system she went away and came back 30 minutes later with all the measurement's of everything I needed to make and be able to fold the whole lot all in one long strip .
There were 13 radiused corners some had 30mm radius and some had smaller had 15 mm radius, some corners were external and a few internal , all glossy gell coated finish and never cracked a single one !!
How its done well That's my secret but if you understand composites you will guess how its possible to do !
ALL THIS ORIGAMI SYSTEM I WORKED OUT BY MYSELF IN MY HEAD LONG TIME AGO WITH OTHER THINGS I HAD MADE AND KNEW AND UNDERTOOD WHAT THE CAPABILITIES OF EVERYTHING NEEDED AND WHAT AND HOW TO USE IT TO MAKE IT DO WHAT I WANTED IT TO DO !!!
SO HOW WELL DO YOU KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENT GLASS MATERIALS AND THERE WEAVES ??
WHAT ABOUT RESINS AND GEL COATS DO YOU UNDERSTAND HOW THEY ACTUALLY WORK ??
PEEL PLY HAD A LOT TO DO WITH THIS PROCESS OF MAKING THINGS BENDABLE AS WELL !!
WHAT CAN PEEL PLY DO FOR YOU DURING THE MAKING OF THINGS ??
Quote:
Originally Posted by One Oldman
I started this thread a little over a week ago. I was expecting horror stories of transoms falling off, broken stringers, and broke up hulls. After over 850 views and 33 replies, that has not been the case. It seems most of the failures were from someone else’s repairs or, most commonly, the manufacturer. 20 or 30 years seem to be the usual lifespan for most without major repair. Yea, I know there is no reason the lifespan could not be 50-70 years or beyond with better material and quality control.
The amazing thing to me was that they were no real horror stories. Given that many of us have 0 experience and skill levels ranging from awful to expert. Even with our sometimes poor choice of glass, resins, materials, and skills, at least for what seems the most part, serious failures are rare.
Example: My first and only rebuild (working on the second) was a ’83 19V Bullet. It had 3-4 foot cracks running down each side of the pad from bad coring. About 75% of the wood everywhere, but the transom was rotten. I did nothing correctly. I installed coring without bedding and improperly spliced stingers (sister spliced them with thru bolts). Didn’t make a good putty and the list goes on. When I repaired the hull cracks, I just Ved them and used gel paste to fill. Oh yea, I also had numerous places that I damaged prying out the core and other places that I cut through the hull with a circular saw. I just laid a piece or two of glass over the cuts and cored over the many damaged pry places. When I cored it, I used no bedding and simply set it on CSM. Scrimped on resin everywhere. Given that this boat is not used as a high speed application, but I have hit several stumps at 15-20 MPH. One hard enough to nearly flip the boat and another that broke left and right clamp bracket’s, pivot bracket, and bent the pivot shaft. So far the boat is holding up fine and not showing any ill effects from the poor work or collisions. Personally, I wouldn’t trust the boat with anything over a 150 HP on it. That should push it to low 70’s set up right. Then again, I don’t want to ride much over 70 in a 19V Bullet anyway. Yea, and I know it may not last too long the way I built it, but I’m 71. I may not either!
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatermike
Scott is till around cranking out work. He is redoing another Hydrostream right now. Guy does some great work.Quote:
Originally Posted by XstreamVking
Still not any major issues from anyone?
I think Tunnels mite have a QUESTION . And mite have to start a new thread.
Bugs in your finish coats. Also mouse paw prints, urine puddles, and sh!t jimmies all over new paint.
While these are certainly annoying, I don't think they qualify as major failures. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by home made tunnel