Tricks that old racers get up to after retirement

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Originally Posted by jackiewilson

You know what Roy, i was always under the impression that it was „“A WESLAKE“ motor in the boat. Could be somebody else might have breathed on it , but i still think it was a weslake. Then again I always thought it was a SIDEWINDER ??? But here it says it was a SILVER WING.
Bill Seebold told me he built IT —- so that should make it a „“SEEBOLD“????????????

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Back in 2011, tfitschen posted the following ..... the boat that won Parker in 85 was a Seebold ......

The first boats that we had at speed and marine were a short molinari, with a small block chevy, then we ran the pickle fork molinari with a big block chevy. After that boat was destroyed while leading the Parker enduro, we got a Seebold that we originally ran a big block chevy, then eventually won the 1985 Parker Enduro with the jaguar V-12. After the 1985 race we started building our own version, with a single cockpit, and a open ski boat deck, under the name Silverwing.

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Originally Posted by willabee

Back in 2011, tfitschen posted the following ..... the boat that won Parker in 85 was a Seebold ......

The first boats that we had at speed and marine were a short molinari, with a small block chevy, then we ran the pickle fork molinari with a big block chevy. After that boat was destroyed while leading the Parker enduro, we got a Seebold that we originally ran a big block chevy, then eventually won the 1985 Parker Enduro with the jaguar V-12. After the 1985 race we started building our own version, with a single cockpit, and a open ski boat deck, under the name Silverwing.

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So far so good Bill, but was it a breathed on WESLAKE Jaguar, or was there a tuner of jaguars in the USA ? And what gearcase was it ???

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Originally Posted by jackiewilson

So far so good Bill, but was it a breathed on WESLAKE Jaguar, or was there a tuner of jaguars in the USA ? And what gearcase was it ???

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Can't help ya with the Jag, but think the drive was the new TRS. If I remember correctly, that drive with a redesigned McII SSM is what we ran on the Merc Hi-Perf "Rotary Whipper" in 1973 pictured below .....

Attachment 484482

Seems to me they said that drive could handle over 750 HP. It would have been the drive Speed Marine bought for their 1st KT in 74. It was also on the Cosworth that Benz drove to win the KT Championship in 78. I don't know if it was still in use in the mid eighties. It was pretty beefy .....

Attachment 484483

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Originally Posted by jackiewilson

During the war years 1939/45. i lived in a small village in West Yorkshire called LIGHTCLIFFE . Only thing of note was, it had a railway station!.
In those wartime years, everything was moved by rail, and pulled by steam train,BIG STEAM ENGINES — FUELLED BY COAL. Coal is dirty filthy stuff , that once its burning hot , it chucks out SOOT.
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Originally Posted by willabee

Can't help ya with the Jag, but think the drive was the new TRS. If I remember correctly, that drive with a redesigned McII SSM is what we ran on the Merc Hi-Perf "Rotary Whipper" in 1973 pictured below .....

Attachment 484482

Seems to me they said that drive could handle over 750 HP. It would have been the drive Speed Marine bought for their 1st KT in 74. It was also on the Cosworth that Benz drove to win the KT Championship in 78. I don't know if it was still in use in the mid eighties. It was pretty beefy .....

Attachment 484483

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I would have loved to have had that thing on the Cosworth William . Always felt the motor would run much quicker —- just never got the boat to run more than125 mph before it got out of shape .

Unfortunately your "rotary whipper" never wiped a rotary. Only time they ran together, Provo 1973, and the rotary won.

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Originally Posted by Rotary John

Unfortunately your "rotary whipper" never whipped a rotary. Only time they ran together, Provo 1973, and the rotary won.

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'Gotta love it! Posts and replies like this are great .. reminds me of the saying, "All fishermen are liars except you and me, and sometimes I'm not so sure about you!" haha.

Here's my theory: it's not that any of us purposely lie... we may simply forget, embellish or have that old, "Must Have Won? recall going on. It's just a racing guy's thing - and a forever competitive attitude. ;0).

In the end, dialogue and debates from the best of our sport is truly special.. Keep it flowing :thumbsup:

jeeez. i don't know who to believe now...:smiletest:

...willa you r probably on the right track, that the 1985 speed marine kilo kt seebold used the number two speedmaster. the prop had to be something really special because not much back then pitchwise to hit 138 mph with the 1.5:1 ratio. don't believe 1.33:1 ratio was even available yet on that drive like was available in the number three drives. "although"...the destroked jag motor WAS turning 7,200 at w.o.t....so...maybe? those v-12's were made in three cubic inch sizes. a 5.3 litre, a 6.0 litre, and a 7.0 litre. the v-12 that was used by mitch lembske for the kilo was 399 cu. in....so it was a destroked/purpose built to scream engine. regarding the merc number two speedy. they were, as you know, merely a trs upper with a new speedy lower. in endurance & offshore boats they were used on, the speedy version was found to be less durable that a standard trs drive, believe it or not. the weaker half being the bottom half. also, just like the standard trs, they were best used in the 400 to 500 horsepower range for power in front of them for durability reasons. mercs come a long way since then, for sure...

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Originally Posted by FUJIMO

...willa you r probably on the right track, that the 1985 speed marine kilo kt seebold used the number two speedmaster. the prop had to be something really special because not much back then pitchwise to hit 138 mph with the 1.5:1 ratio. don't believe 1.33:1 ratio was even available yet on that drive like was available in the number three drives. "although"...the destroked jag motor WAS turning 7,200 at w.o.t....so...maybe? those v-12's were made in three cubic inch sizes. a 5.3 litre, a 6.0 litre, and a 7.0 litre. the v-12 that was used by mitch lembske for the kilo was 399 cu. in....so it was a destroked/purpose built to scream engine. regarding the merc number two speedy. they were, as you know, merely a trs upper with a new speedy lower. in endurance & offshore boats they were used on, the speedy version was found to be less durable that a standard trs drive, believe it or not. the weaker half being the bottom half. also, just like the standard trs, they were best used in the 400 to 500 horsepower range for power in front of them for durability reasons. mercs come a long way since then, for sure...

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now that all ties in with what i remember , although IAN HAWKINS or MALCOLM TYRREL could verify these statements,
F1 motors were making 750 up, and running 12,000 rpm in the mid to late 70‘s
Duckworth decided that the LE MANS version of the cosworth DFV three litre normally aspirated fuel injected motor would suffice .
This poked out 400 hip at 8,000 rpm and was as reliable as daybreak and dusk. Hodges designed
top speed was some 123 mph, before the port sponson started waving at the crowd — never did cure it.
Wing helped all round — until there was a cross wind , then the the whole rig would float, anywhere except where you pointed it .
Most revs i ever saw was 8,500, boat was 20 feet long and and was equal to any of the factory boats at that time .
unfortunately , i only got one shot at it, low budget operation but it was done by the finest engineering company in the world at the time. Only ever ran it for one season .
Duckworth and Mercury did get together on several projects after that. Seebold boat that Bentz used in Miami was Far quicker than any KT that ran previously . My honest opinion is —top speed was in the mid 130‘s . [Yes , i was there in Miami watching .
Boaat never once got out of shape — was the biggest leap forward in KT design ever , but it did effectively kill the class.

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Originally Posted by FUJIMO

...willa you r probably on the right track, that the 1985 speed marine kilo kt seebold used the number two speedmaster. the prop had to be something really special......

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Received an email last night from Boob Hetzel, Mercury's Mr. Propeller. He was at the 85 Parker Enduro and confirmed that the winning Speed Marine KT was running the TRS drive. Bob probably spent some time banging on props for that rig.

I asked him how the rotaries fared against that KT, he just chuckled. :D

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Originally Posted by willabee

Received an email last night from Boob Hetzel, Mercury's Mr. Propeller. He was at the 85 Parker Enduro and confirmed that the winning Speed Marine KT was running the TRS drive. Bob probably spent some time banging on props for that rig.



I asked him how the rotaries fared against that KT, he just chuckled. :D

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HETZEL was the one that got me running at Parker after Garbrecht and Duckworth switched the gear ratios. None of the props i had been running earlier that season would even begin to work . He banged away for hours before managing to get me on plane , i will always be grateful for everything he did at Parker that day.
I still think the Cosworth team went a long way towards sorting the reliability problems of the SSM bottom ends. I’m sure Malcolm tyrrel could tell you exactly what happened — i was on a strictly „“NEED TO KNOW „“ basis.

...if only a dry sump lower could have been around for the number two through five ssm's...;)

Funny old time for me at present— like hanging over a cliff without visible means of support—- its been called LIMBO by many. Neither one thing nor the other , not here -but not there either . Have a house, but can’t move in. Will have a new workshop—— but not yet. Most certainly will not be ready for Easter weekend now!!! Half packed my workshop, so all activity ceased for the next two weeks .
That don’t stop me wheeling and a dealing.
Bought another bandsaw—- one owner for fifty years— totally original —— same model as the one i bought a month ago. DONT ASK!!!!

...if you tell someone not to do something, they are going to do it. basic human psychology. sooo..."where" do you find the number of metal & wood working tools & machinery thats "for sale", in your area? online?...in a local rag of some sort?...someone else telling you whats available?(word of mouth)...a large local daily or weekly flea market?...or what? you have said you have sold or traded items very simply as well. give us the rundown mr. wilson...haha.:smiletest: