OMC's 4-Rotor Wankel Racing Engine - The Real Story

[QUOTE=Speedfab

I'll take Rotary John's real life knowledge of these things over internet armchair quarterbacks and rotary fanboys all day. I may have many years of experience with them, I may be an engineer, but he actually ENGINEERED one. Big difference. I'm not just blowing smoke, I think everyone reading this needs to realize how fortunate we are that he is actually here telling us about it. I find the whole thing fascinating.[/QUOTE]

Let me set the table and tell you of what I remember as a kid
of the Greatest Parker Race Ever!

I grew up in a family, full of mechanics.
Starting back to Barney Oilfield / Henry Ford

My Father and partner had been asked by Shelby to work with them. Joe Mondello worked down the street and went on to win the Enduro

Well we were all VIP guests of Mc Culloch oil for the race.
Jack was Robert Mc Culloch's "special projects" guru

Jack along with Ak Miller won the "Pan American" road race.

Ford, gave Miller a 25 million grant job designing the FE ford motor platform.

Jack, was amazing, build a city, move a bridge, supercharger, 2-stroke motors, promote boat racing. And a mentor

This Parker race was about winning. Ford, Chev, Mopar
had vested stakes. Win on Sunday sell on Monday !

But, to Mercury
It's about crushing you opponent !

Well life is about the little things

Like a "David vs Goliath" moment.

You don't see them often.

That's why we are still talking about it to this day.

My brother and I learned something that day !
First, we want a Rotary.
Second, we want to win that race someday.
Well, we did the latter.

And we still want a rotary
It was the little train that could !

Big Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rotary John

The race engine dropped to approx. 65% volumetric when it warmed up. If I could get that 35% back plus, wow the boat wouldn't have stayed together.

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What do you think caused that? Sealing? Inlet air temps? Cooling hot spots? That's a huge hit.

Big Steve, I totally get what you mean. We must be about the same age or close. My dad was small time into boat racing, only stuff I ever saw was in Florida as far as I know. But I did get to see and hear stackers run in their heyday, along with some other neat stuff. I look back glad that I was at least born early enough to witness what to me were the great days of outboard racing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Speedfab

What do you think caused that? Sealing? Inlet air temps? Cooling hot spots? That's a huge hit.

Big Steve, I totally get what you mean. We must be about the same age or close. My dad was small time into boat racing, only stuff I ever saw was in Florida as far as I know. But I did get to see and hear stackers run in their heyday, along with some other neat stuff. I look back glad that I was at least born early enough to witness what to me were the great days of outboard racing.

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These engines were charged cooled. Meaning the fuel/air intake charge went thru the internals of the rotor first and then into the intake cycle. The charge heated up approx. 150 F in the process and thus expanded resulting in a lower volumetric. In addition the intake path was quite tortuous resulting in further loses. This is how the rotor bearing was lubricated also, The delta T across the rotor cause the bearing to be larger on the hot side than the cold side, resulting in hugh side loading and premature failure, Mazda engines are oil cooled and can allow for direct intake to the intake cycle resulting in 100+ volumetric. If you look at the Mazda LaMans engine, it had variable length intake horns to maximize volumetric thru out the rpm range.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Steve 435

Let me set the table and tell you of what I remember as a kid
of the Greatest Parker Race Ever!

I grew up in a family, full of mechanics.
Starting back to Barney Oilfield / Henry Ford

My Father and partner had been asked by Shelby to work with them. Joe Mondello worked down the street and went on to win the Enduro

Well we were all VIP guests of Mc Culloch oil for the race.
Jack was Robert Mc Culloch's "special projects" guru

Jack along with Ak Miller won the "Pan American" road race.

Ford, gave Miller a 25 million grant job designing the FE ford motor platform.

Jack, was amazing, build a city, move a bridge, supercharger, 2-stroke motors, promote boat racing. And a mentor

This Parker race was about winning. Ford, Chev, Mopar
had vested stakes. Win on Sunday sell on Monday !

But, to Mercury
It's about crushing you opponent !

Well life is about the little things

Like a "David vs Goliath" moment.

You don't see them often.

That's why we are still talking about it to this day.

My brother and I learned something that day !
First, we want a Rotary.
Second, we want to win that race someday.
Well, we did the latter.

And we still want a rotary
It was the little train that could !

Big Steve

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It happened again at Provo. Merc brought all their big guns including 600HP IO's trying to compete with the rotary. They went home with there tail between their legs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rotary John

It happened again at Provo. Merc brought all their big guns including 600HP IO's trying to compete with the rotary. They went home with there tail between their legs.

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C'mon Johnno, you cannot be serious, one quick first lap at Parker-----what happened to the mighty ROTORY the next time round,---stopped for a drink and a sandwich did we?
6 wins out of eight starts 40 + years ago and your still celebrating ,----3of those were at backyard events with minimum opposition
Windermere was by default after the opposition broke, hells teeth I was in the first five with a 1000 BP, DRIVING SO SLOW GG SACKED ME.
Never been to Provo, but every time WILLABEE and you get into it there is conflicting memories of the event.
Mercury probably won over 1,000 races worldwide that year (' cos that's what they do ) hell of a lot more than 6.

Oh I forget Johnno, where in the hell could you find a V8 that got anywhere near 600hp---------be lucky to get any more than 300, and that's pushing it. (In my opinion).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jackiewilson

C'mon Johnno, you cannot be serious, one quick first lap at Parker-----what happened to the mighty ROTORY the next time round,---stopped for a drink and a sandwich did we?
6 wins out of eight starts 40 + years ago and your still celebrating ,----3of those were at backyard events with minimum opposition
Windermere was by default after the opposition broke, hells teeth I was in the first five with a 1000 BP, DRIVING SO SLOW GG SACKED ME.
Never been to Provo, but every time WILLABEE and you get into it there is conflicting memories of the event.
Mercury probably won over 1,000 races worldwide that year (' cos that's what they do ) hell of a lot more than 6.

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First of all Jackie I never new you were so talented with these works of art they look pretty good to me I would like to see pictures of all of them..Now thinking back to the Windermere Grand Prix of 1973 was the year the Rotarys won.The little black 1000SBP Molinari sprint boat you ran at Windermere was in 1971?

[QUOTE=STEVERINO;2604540]First of all Jackie I never new you were so talented with these works of art they look pretty good to me I would like to see pictures of all of them..Now thinking back to the Windermere Grand Prix of 1973 was the year the Rotarys won.The little black 1000SBP Molinari sprint boat you ran at Windermere was in 1971?[/QUOTE

If that's the year Shakey copped it then your right Steve, didn't race at all in 1973 so I owe R/J a huge unreserved apology-------big Mouth WILSON. The little grey cells are turning white.

[QUOTE=jackiewilson;2604555]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by STEVERINO

First of all Jackie I never new you were so talented with these works of art they look pretty good to me I would like to see pictures of all of them..Now thinking back to the Windermere Grand Prix of 1973 was the year the Rotarys won.The little black 1000SBP Molinari sprint boat you ran at Windermere was in 1971?[/QUOTE

If that's the year Shakey copped it then your right Steve, didn't race at all in 1973 so I owe R/J a huge unreserved apology-------big Mouth WILSON. The little grey cells are turning white.

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Jackie: I thought for a moment you were so slow with that Merc BP that you were still trying to finish in '73 having started in '71. Seems to me it was you a few posts ago saying 100HP from a V-8? Karl used to line them up on the dock just to prove they were available; 600 HP marine V-8's. Hell damn; you can get that much HP today in a Corvette that's emission legal.

[QUOTE=Rotary John;2604600]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jackiewilson

Jackie: I thought for a moment you were so slow with that Merc BP that you were still trying to finish in '73 having started in '71. Seems to me it was you a few posts ago saying 100HP from a V-8? Karl used to line them up on the dock just to prove they were available; 600 HP marine V-8's. Hell damn; you can get that much HP today in a Corvette that's emission legal.

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That's today Johnno, Doubt if a Keith Black lump would give 300 in 1972.
Reason I was slow , Shakey Bill had just disappeared into the depths of Windermere ( to be discovered 20 years later) and my heart was not in it.
that is what GG and I had the argument about, it came close to a fist fight and I got thrown out of
the brownies.

Back in the 70's, I was in Key West. A outboard race was held in a small bay between Boog Powels Marine and Boca Chica key. I atched from a spit ofdry land at Boogs. The guys in black were present with the big factory haulers. All the black motors had cow bells and sounded awesome. The OMC guys had one boat and it was plain jane. The race started and boy what a surprise. The start was even and the turn speeds were even but on the straights it looked like the Merc's threw out a sea anchor. I knew about the Mazda engine but had no idea some gear heads had bolted it to a transom. They lapped the field several times until something put a hole in the hull and a stream of water shot up through the cockpit. Some how the driver got it into the shallows close to where I was. The crew all jumped in and kept the power head above water and saved it. Thanks for the history and evolution of the marine rotary. After the above event I never heard anything else about it. I often mentioned this to other folks and usually got a are you crazy look.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ndwoods

Back in the 70's, I was in Key West. A outboard race was held in a small bay between Boog Powels Marine and Boca Chica key. I atched from a spit ofdry land at Boogs. The guys in black were present with the big factory haulers. All the black motors had cow bells and sounded awesome. The OMC guys had one boat and it was plain jane. The race started and boy what a surprise. The start was even and the turn speeds were even but on the straights it looked like the Merc's threw out a sea anchor. I knew about the Mazda engine but had no idea some gear heads had bolted it to a transom. They lapped the field several times until something put a hole in the hull and a stream of water shot up through the cockpit. Some how the driver got it into the shallows close to where I was. The crew all jumped in and kept the power head above water and saved it. Thanks for the history and evolution of the marine rotary. After the above event I never heard anything else about it. I often mentioned this to other folks and usually got a are you crazy look.

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Good to hear a story from someone who was there then, even though it had an anticlimax. And...Welcome to Scream & Fly ndwoods.:smiletest:

Jackie, a CCC V6 was probably close to 300 hp (the later versions) Something that many people don't know is that the OMC 235 production motor pulled more than 235 h.p. when it was introduced. Scared the crap out of Merc as they were sure OMC had only built a 200 h.p. engine. The later fuel injected V8 had to be cranking some serious power for Benny to do a 141 mph lap in 1986.

No doubt the rotary and the V8 helped sink OMC. The rotary project was rumored to have started in 1967 so from then until 1973 must have gone through a crap load of money. A former OMC employee told me they were spending a million $ per race for the U.S. F1 series. Fun while it lasted I guess.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mark Poole ModVP

Jackie, a CCC V6 was probably close to 300 hp (the later versions) Something that many people don't know is that the OMC 235 production motor pulled more than 235 h.p. when it was introduced. Scared the crap out of Merc as they were sure OMC had only built a 200 h.p. engine. The later fuel injected V8 had to be cranking some serious power for Benny to do a 141 mph lap in 1986.

No doubt the rotary and the V8 helped sink OMC. The rotary project was rumored to have started in 1967 so from then until 1973 must have gone through a crap load of money. A former OMC employee told me they were spending a million $ per race for the U.S. F1 series. Fun while it lasted I guess.

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Mark, I had 400hp and could run 125 for a week, @8,500 rpm, at that exact speed the front port sponson got well and truly out of shape. Always felt the set up would run 150+ if we could iron the problem! but it was a very short exercise, (mainly to test US reaction to the Cosworth motor) the whole project lasted less than a year, but was fun while it lasted -----whole project probably cost less than a batch of ROTORY cranks.

what was the then retail price of DFV?
PS you can make 250hp from a 2.0 v4 looper with stock parts, that tends to say 500 with a behind the liner straight in front half 3.5ltr wouldnt be hard..

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Originally Posted by powerabout

what was the then retail price of DFV?
PS you can make 250hp from a 2.0 v4 looper with stock parts, that tends to say 500 with a behind the liner straight in front half 3.5ltr wouldnt be hard..

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£25,000 ----under. $.40,000

:iagree:

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Originally Posted by jackiewilson

£25,000 ----under. $.40,000

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. I can remember BIll Badsey in 1977 being quoted £5,000 for a OMC. 2.5 CCC engine.

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Originally Posted by STEVERINO

:iagree:. I can remember BIll Badsey in 1977 being quoted £5,000 for a OMC. 2.5 CCC engine.

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Be honest Steve-----which would you rather have, 5 x 2.5 CCC OR ONE EVERLASTING COSWORTH DFV----- no contest is it ..?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jackiewilson

Be honest Steve-----which would you rather have, 5 x 2.5 CCC OR ONE EVERLASTING COSWORTH DFV----- no contest is it ..?

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. To be honest Jackie the Cosworth engine had a massive part to play in the history of formula 1 car racing that it would be no contest but I wish I still had that outfit today I would just like to go out and drive it. In 1978 at the World OZ championship race in the UK I am sure you finished 4th place and I finished in 5th place overall not bad to say my engine had raced about 5 international races maybe 20 hrs until I sold it.The engines that finished in the first 3 places were that highly tuned they were lucky to finish 3 hrs of racing.Going back to a earlier post about the Windermere 3hr Grand Prix in 1971 I have been trying to find Ray Bulmans race report from 1971?.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by STEVERINO

. To be honest Jackie the Cosworth engine had a massive part to play in the history of formula 1 car racing that it would be no contest but I wish I still had that outfit today I would just like to go out and drive it. In 1978 at the World OZ championship race in the UK I am sure you finished 4th place and I finished in 5th place overall not bad to say my engine had raced about 5 international races maybe 20 hrs until I sold it.The engines that finished in the first 3 places were that highly tuned they were lucky to finish 3 hrs of racing.Going back to a earlier post about the Windermere 3hr Grand Prix in 1971 I have been trying to find Ray Bulmans race report from 1971?.

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GG and Duckworth wanted Billy to try my boat, did a few laps and didn't go any quicker than me---------the boat was the limiting factor, not the motor.
Was full factory nose to nose at time and all the secret sh-t was there.
Better get off R/J site, he can get prissy real easy.

Scribed. Gary

Where are you Jonno?

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Originally Posted by jackiewilson

Where are you Jonno?

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I'm still here. Just nothing good to ad.

John
When was the move to oil cooled ones that allowed peripferal ports?
Cheers

John, how many rotary engines were made by OMC?

Cobalti
Was the guy in Melbourne
I'll find a photo
Cheers
edit
photo

Back on topic..!!!!!


OMC and the Rotary outboard took the overall win in Windermere 1973


http://svera.se/blogg/omc-and-the-ro...ndermere-1973/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by powerabout

John
When was the move to oil cooled ones that allowed peripferal ports?
Cheers

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The oil cooled engines were actually the first ones OMC worked on. It was 100ci; 210HP in both outboard and IO. They were peripheral ported and were actually pretty good engines. However, cost was much more than a 2-stroke of the time and even after a complete redesign for cost, it still wasn't competitive. The 32ci engine was designed for the snowmobile and was air cool/charged cooled. The race engine was the water cooled variant of the snowmobile engine. Go back to the start of this thread and it tell the whole story.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SCT

John, how many rotary engines were made by OMC?

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OMC produced approx. 15,500 snowmobile engines in 1973-74. Though several other engines were developed, the SN engine was the only one ever in production. OMC stopped rotary development in 75/76. I believe OMC research worked on a larger engine after that, but never got it to work properly. By that time all of the engineering people in Waukegan had left.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lars strom

Back on topic..!!!!!


OMC and the Rotary outboard took the overall win in Windermere 1973


http://svera.se/blogg/omc-and-the-ro...ndermere-1973/

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If you look closely, the bottom half of the engine (bucket) is silver (Evinrude). For some reason I don't remember, An Evinrude engine was mounted on the Downard/Posey boat and shroud was switched to make it a Johnson.

For all you rotary enthusiasts there are several YouTube videos on building rotaries.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rotary John

The oil cooled engines were actually the first ones OMC worked on. It was 100ci; 210HP in both outboard and IO. They were peripheral ported and were actually pretty good engines. However, cost was much more than a 2-stroke of the time and even after a complete redesign for cost, it still wasn't competitive. The 32ci engine was designed for the snowmobile and was air cool/charged cooled. The race engine was the water cooled variant of the snowmobile engine. Go back to the start of this thread and it tell the whole story.

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Ok re read it all, thanks John, I see Moller are doing what they are doing with a charge cooled engine, is that right?

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Originally Posted by powerabout

Ok re read it all, thanks John, I see Moller are doing what they are doing with a charge cooled engine, is that right?

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Moller is using the 538 OMC base engine. Charged cooled/water cooled. He has developed a central web rotor with dual intakes. He also does direct oil injection to the bearings. He tells me he is getting 105HP from a single rotor engine. Knowing what I know of the exhaust system and porting on the 4 rotor, I would estimate 450+ HP for a todays 4 rotor. I would love to see one of them on a current race boat. Look out Merc, Again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rotary John

Moller is using the 538 OMC base engine. Charged cooled/water cooled. He has developed a central web rotor with dual intakes. He also does direct oil injection to the bearings. He tells me he is getting 105HP from a single rotor engine. Knowing what I know of the exhaust system and porting on the 4 rotor, I would estimate 450+ HP for a todays 4 rotor. I would love to see one of them on a current race boat. Look out Merc, Again.

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Why Johnno, nobody out there has "UNLIMITED" cash any more, it still wouldn't be enough to touch the 1,000 hp a formula 1 motor produces to day, proven , in production , successful and viable, all from 3 liters.

I'll bet they could if the spentOTE=jackiewilson;2611544]Why Johnno, nobody out there has "UNLIMITED" cash any more, it still wouldn't be enough to touch the 1,000 hp a formula 1 motor produces to day, proven , in production , successful and viable, all from 3 liters.[/QUOTE]
I'll bet they could if they spent the 2-3 hundred million each year that F1 does just on the engine
This year is an all new engine, lets see how reliable they are for $200 mil
Which means they will have spent a billion in 5 years

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jackiewilson

Why Johnno, nobody out there has "UNLIMITED" cash any more, it still wouldn't be enough to touch the 1,000 hp a formula 1 motor produces to day, proven , in production , successful and viable, all from 3 liters.

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Jackie they havnt been 3 ltr nor 1000hp for years

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Originally Posted by powerabout

Jackie they havnt been 3 ltr nor 1000hp for years

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That's what I was trying to say -----you do not need capacity to raise H.P. progress has been made everywhere except in rotaries.
I still think the design is fatally flawed somewhere.

According to Ferrari blurb they have available 26,000 RPM but will limit output to 15,600 so as to make the motor last for the required 5,000 race miles, this is from a 1.5 turbo lump which produces some 750 HP with a further 160 for 20 seconds from the KERS -----thats over 900 HP and the season has only just begun, by 2015 it will be back up to 1,000 again.
I do not agree with the current formula at all ----- you can get 1,000,000 HP for a brief moment going down this road, it' just a very expensive balancing act.

Tell you something very interesting I read the other day comparing a nascar 6.0 ltr and the just replaced 2.5 f1 v8
Many things similar as in they are both at their design peaks etc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by powerabout

Tell you something very interesting I read the other day comparing a nascar 6.0 ltr and the just replaced 2.5 f1 v8
Many things similar as in they are both at their design peaks etc

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They said that about the Coventry Climax in 1939, same thing when Mercury brought out 100 HP, but it seems progress marches on in everything ( except the ROTORY it seems).