Tricks that old racers get up to after retirement

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Originally Posted by powerabout

the powerboat industry could take a page from modern carbon racing yacht build techniques, thats for sure.
Much more money spent on race yachts, mostly one offs

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Its happening in the Powerboat industry Pilgrim—— My son Mark and grandson Craig saw what was happening in the F1 car industry———— got to talking to some very knowledgeable people in Germany—- they came over to Florida and taught them a whole bunch of new technology.
Turned the carbon fibre industry on its head———- you could eat your breakfast off the floor in today’s
“FIBREGLASS” factory——— you know exactly how much a fifty foot boat will weigh——— and, it will be eight times stronger than its predecessor.
Latest Seebold has already been produced—————and the new Donzi 44 with quad 400 R’s is already up and running———— most of the well known brands are already committed to the new techniques.
So, trouble ye not Pilgrim———— all is well in the powerboating world.

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Originally Posted by jackiewilson

Its happening in the Powerboat industry Pilgrim—— My son Mark and grandson Craig saw what was happening in the F1 car industry———— got to talking to some very knowledgeable people in Germany—- they came over to Florida and taught them a whole bunch of new technology.
Turned the carbon fibre industry on its head———- you could eat your breakfast off the floor in today’s
“FIBREGLASS” factory——— you know exactly how much a fifty foot boat will weigh——— and, it will be eight times stronger than its predecessor.
Latest Seebold has already been produced—————and the new Donzi 44 with quad 400 R’s is already up and running———— most of the well known brands are already committed to the new techniques.
So, trouble ye not Pilgrim———— all is well in the powerboating world.

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Thats good news, finally, I wonder if they FEA the structure yet, that has the potential to remove decades of wrong design.
They become lighter and stronger and cheaper to build.

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Originally Posted by powerabout

Thats good news, finally, I wonder if they FEA the structure yet, that has the potential to remove decades of wrong design.
They become lighter and stronger and cheaper to build.

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Have to confess Pilgrim——- I have no idea what FEA means—— but RIGHT DESIGNS only came about because somebody took the time and trouble to sort out “WRONG DESIGNS”.
Ok—- So Boats get lighter and stronger———- don’t mean they get cheaper——— somebody has to pay for R & D !
Investers do like a return you know !

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Originally Posted by jackiewilson

Have to confess Pilgrim——- I have no idea what FEA means—— but RIGHT DESIGNS only came about because somebody took the time and trouble to sort out “WRONG DESIGNS”.
Ok—- So Boats get lighter and stronger———- don’t mean they get cheaper——— somebody has to pay for R & D !
Investers do like a return you know !

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Jackie my boy, FEA is "Finite element analysis" It a computer analysis to determine the stress (strength) at various parts of your design. But as usual, sh*t in -sh*t out. Someone has to tell the FEA what loads are applied to a race boat in competition. Not sure anyone has done that. And if they had it would be different for every race course, every race condition, every boat, every engine, every engine mounting, every drive weight. You get the jest. Its a bunch of BS in race boat design.

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Originally Posted by Rotary John

Jackie my boy, FEA is "Finite element analysis" It a computer analysis to determine the stress (strength) at various parts of your design. But as usual, sh*t in -sh*t out. Someone has to tell the FEA what loads are applied to a race boat in competition. Not sure anyone has done that. And if they had it would be different for every race course, every race condition, every boat, every engine, every engine mounting, every drive weight. You get the jest. Its a bunch of BS in race boat design.

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every other industry uses it, all the engines are designed with it, composite aircraft parts, racing yachts.
Makes racing powerboats look a bit old fashioned.

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Originally Posted by jackiewilson

Its happening in the Powerboat industry Pilgrim—— My son Mark and grandson Craig saw what was happening in the F1 car industry———— got to talking to some very knowledgeable people in Germany—- they came over to Florida and taught them a whole bunch of new technology.
Turned the carbon fibre industry on its head———- you could eat your breakfast off the floor in today’s
“FIBREGLASS” factory——— you know exactly how much a fifty foot boat will weigh——— and, it will be eight times stronger than its predecessor.
Latest Seebold has already been produced—————and the new Donzi 44 with quad 400 R’s is already up and running———— most of the well known brands are already committed to the new techniques.
So, trouble ye not Pilgrim———— all is well in the powerboating world.

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They've been utilizing carbon here in the go-fast marine industry for decades my friend. Carbon customers($) & the right boat type applications are always in question & simply not as common as a production material part(boat). First used Kevlar Aramid 49 & Kevlar/Carbon & Kevlar/Carbon/Graphite hybrids in the late 70's myself. Not small parts...large parts. I realize Mark has been in the "marine" business for a long time, but how many years someone has actually been in a glass lamination shop says a lot.

who and when put the first race boat in an oven to cure it in the USA (with suitable resin of course)?

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Originally Posted by powerabout

who put the first race boat in an oven to cure it in the USA (with suitable resin of course)?

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what size?

The worlds "longest" autoclave carbon sail mast was built by my friends at "Consolidated Yacht" here in Broward County, back in the mid-90's. It was built, at the time, for the worlds largest single masted sailboat. I believe the name of the boat was "Zeus", and was homeported in Lauderdale.

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Originally Posted by FUJIMO

what size?

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any size, I was thinking the Kiwi's started it all late 80's when they built Steinlager 2, 80' yacht that was baked?
and I suppose that led to the creation of the company High Modulas, that pioneered FEA for composites AFAIK?

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Originally Posted by powerabout

every other industry uses it, all the engines are designed with it, composite aircraft parts, racing yachts.
Makes racing powerboats look a bit old fashioned.

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What John says is quite right. The problem is simulation makes a series of best guesses based around what information its given. I may be wrong but I have yet to see any raceboat manufacturer actually gather any significant data and use it in the design of the boat. DAC is probably closest, they have access to some pretty trick kit and significant funding but lets face it most manufacturers just don't have access to sophisticated enough data or software when racers pay what they do for boats.

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Originally Posted by techteam

What John says is quite right. The problem is simulation makes a series of best guesses based around what information its given. I may be wrong but I have yet to see any raceboat manufacturer actually gather any significant data and use it in the design of the boat. DAC is probably closest, they have access to some pretty trick kit and significant funding but lets face it most manufacturers just don't have access to sophisticated enough data or software when racers pay what they do for boats.

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Before you get to the 'we can engineer this so thin it will fail crossing the finish line" you take your current build and get a FEA shop to look at it.
The can find all the anomalies from hard points to weak points, core layedups that dont make sense, cloth to resin strength wrong, frames, stringers etc that do nothing or are in the wrong place, too thick , too thin etc.
I have had several builders tell me they did this and all say the result was worthwhile, they learnt lots about construction and pretty much all say I ended up with lighter stronger simpler to build boats.
You also gain the exact weight your build will be. So hence have a base line strength wise. If you break it they can now tell you the force etc.
All that without load cells and g sensors etc and million dollar optimisation and aerospace chemicals.
Get with the program, companies that build beach cats do it, like I said production powerboats are generally the last in the world to use modern composite technology

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Originally Posted by techteam

What John says is quite right. The problem is simulation makes a series of best guesses based around what information its given. I may be wrong but I have yet to see any raceboat manufacturer actually gather any significant data and use it in the design of the boat. DAC is probably closest, they have access to some pretty trick kit and significant funding but lets face it most manufacturers just don't have access to sophisticated enough data or software when racers pay what they do for boats.

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Whoa——- lighten up a little here TT, ———— That last statement you just made scares the crap out of me
“DAC IS PROBABLY CLOSEST, BUT LETS FACE IT, MOST MANUFACTURERS DONT HAVE ACCESS TO SOPHISTICATED ENOUGH DATA OR SOFTWARE —————— WHEN RACERS PAY WHAT THEY DO FOR BOATS ??????
Last I heard a rigged DAC came out over €100,000 ——- a Far cry from $3,000 for a wood Seebold—Burgess— Velden —-Hodges—— Molinari !
Guido was way ahead of his time ——— he had “Telemetry” long before any other team—— way back in the early eighties.
So —— the question begs——— just how much do you think a today’s F1 boat should be ?

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Originally Posted by FUJIMO

They've been utilizing carbon here in the go-fast marine industry for decades my friend. Carbon customers($) & the right boat type applications are always in question & simply not as common as a production material part(boat). First used Kevlar Aramid 49 & Kevlar/Carbon & Kevlar/Carbon/Graphite hybrids in the late 70's myself. Not small parts...large parts. I realize Mark has been in the "marine" business for a long time, but how many years someone has actually been in a glass lamination shop says a lot.

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Well Fuji, I was building glass boats in the sixties, while it’s a long time ago——- it never made me an expert. Even in those far off days Carbon and Kevlar were being talked about——— used sparingly——- but it was coming.
All Mark did was jump to the forefront of where Carbons at today——

Problem with anyone whose been in a laminating shop for years is the ability to change and learn new tricks——- all glassmen hate change!

[QUOTE=jackiewilson;3123811]Well Fuji, I was building glass boats in the sixties, while it’s a long time ago——- it never made me an expert. Even in those far off days Carbon and Kevlar were being talked about——— used sparingly——- but it was coming.
All Mark did was jump to the forefront of where Carbons at today——

Problem with anyone whose been in a laminating shop for years is the ability to change and learn new tricks——- all glassmen hate change![/QUOTE]
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