electric catamaran boat to set world record

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Originally Posted by Brad Zastrow

You love to pick and choose your conspiracy theories.
Fact check: Electric automobiles catch fire less frequently than gasoline-powered cars, but the duration and intensity of the fires can make them considerably more difficult to put out due to the use of lithium-ion battery packs.

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"Catch fire", like the term "fast" can be used highly selectively.

Does "fast" mean fast acceleration or fast top speed? You already know that BEVs well suited to acceleration, but are not suited to driving fast for very long. That's why I never seen them out on the Autobahn, out in the middle of nowhere bombing along at high speeds with the gas cars. Ever. And I go there a lot. Tesla has published a chart (I would have to go look for it), maybe you have it can can share since you have a Tesla, of the range penalty associated with increasing speed. In it you can see why Tesla drivers don't go 120-130 for long periods out on the Autobahn in the middle of nowhere.

Anyway, as to the loosey goosey use of the term "catch fire":
an ICE car can "catch fire" when the driver of his 1995 Dale Earnhardt edition Lumina or Monte Carlo tries to flick his cigarette butt out the window and it flies back in and lands on the passenger's seat, soaked in McDonalds fry grease from where he places his carry out food while he eats and drives, (this actually happened, BTW). Outside of accidents, ICE fires occur from acts of neglect or improper maintenance, such as failing to cover the positive terminal and all hot side wires terminations, or deteriorated hot side insulation, shade-tree mods, that kind of thing. Otherwise ICE cars do not catch fire. There is nothing in an ICE car that would allow for a spontaneous combustion, just out of the clear blue. This is not so with a BEV car, where a thermal runaway in a lithium ion battery pack starts through no negligence or risky behavior on the part of the owner. And yes, unlike ICE fires, lithium fires are white hot and DO NOT NEED oxygen to self-sustain. They will burn to the ground unless they can be cooled with lots of water. In fact, the cutting edge direction here is total immersion. In Europe, where BEV cars are much more common than here, the are out on the forefront of the issues that arise through mass adoption of BEV, and they are starting to build special trucks for responders, with water tanks that you can pull the car into and then flood. These were never necessary for ICE cars, which should be your first clue that the causes and nature of the fires are not the same. It is folly to try to draw conclusions of out of raw numbers.

Anyway, it is a hugely misleading over-generalization of the risks, to say that BEV cars catch fire less frequently than ICE cars, even if it is true from a strictly numerical standpoint.

-Peter

Lots of hugely misleading over-generalizations in this thread from all the different planets you folks live on.

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Originally Posted by BarryStrawn

Lots of hugely misleading over-generalizations in this thread from all the different planets you folks live on.

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This is why we (some of us) try to break down generalizations into specifics. It helps bring the focus to where people can learn from it.

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BTW, were you the one that reminded me a few months back, to clarify that Honda's fuel cell efforts were H2 and not petrochem?

-Peter

I guess all the auto manufacturers have it wrong spending money on EV. Go back in your shed and weld up a 2-stroke block with a hole in it.

I think I pointed that Honda was using H2 fuel cells, not H2 ICE, and that our supply of H2 is almost entirely petrochemical. Or maybe is was that the Honda fuel cells use H2 and air, not cryogenic oxygen.

It might help we recognized that many or most fires in ICE vehicles result from accidents, not sloppy maintenance. I have not studied the data breakdown, but the rate of vehicle fires suggest BEV don't burn as often after accidents for whatever reasons. If I remember correctly, hybrids are even worse than ICE. Which I suppose makes sense as they have both systems subject to failure or damage.

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Originally Posted by BarryStrawn;[URL="tel:3376765"

3376765[/URL]]I think I pointed that Honda was using H2 fuel cells, not H2 ICE, and that our supply of H2 is almost entirely petrochemical. Or maybe is was that the Honda fuel cells use H2 and air, not cryogenic oxygen.

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Thanks. I thought that was you. Always pitch in when you have something to share. We are all better for it.

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Originally Posted by BarryStrawn;[URL="tel:3376765"

3376765[/URL]]It might help we recognized that many or most fires in ICE vehicles result from accidents, not sloppy maintenance. I have not studied the data breakdown, but the rate of vehicle fires suggest BEV don't burn as often after accidents for whatever reasons. If I remember correctly, hybrids are even worse than ICE. Which I suppose makes sense as they have both systems subject to failure or damage.

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Barry, I agree. And I said as much:

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Outside of accidents, ICE fires occur from acts of neglect or improper maintenance, such as failing to cover the positive terminal and all hot side wires terminations, or deteriorated hot side insulation, shade-tree mods, that kind of thing.

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No harm no foul for missing a small detail here and there, life is busy. Cheers.

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Originally Posted by Brad Zastrow;[URL="tel:3376764"

3376764[/URL]]I guess all the auto manufacturers have it wrong spending money on EV. Go back in your shed and weld up a 2-stroke block with a hole in it.

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Easy on the hysteria, Brad. Nobody here who is serious has said anything like that. If the major auto manufacturers have read the political and regulatory landscape, they are probably not wrong for investing in BEV.

I like two strokes for my fun boats because of their light weight and easy maintenance. My classic-era hull like likes 150-200hp, but at 380 lbs, not 550. I have a 400lb/90hp four stroke for my slow boat, (17 Whaler classic) that gets much better mileage, and I use it for long runs. The boat doesn’t like the weight too much, but… It’s a Whaler. I like two strokes for my motocross bikes, because I can swap a top end in about an hour including putting away my tools. Toys like boats and motocrossers are a very different thing than people who don't care about mechanical things and just want basic transportation they can afford. Same with my yard tools. I’m a pretty serious Honda fanboi, but their four stroke string trimmer is like carrying a 15lb dumbell. So I have a Stihl two-stroke.

-Peter

https://www.screamandfly.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by [B]Brad Zastrow;3376764[/URL]]I guess all the auto manufacturers have it wrong spending money on EV. Go back in your shed and weld up a 2-stroke block with a hole in it.

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Easy on the hysteria, Brad. Nobody here who is serious has said anything like that. If the major auto manufacturers have read the political and regulatory landscape, they are probably not wrong for investing in BEV. I like two strokes for my fun boats because of their light weight and easy maintenance. I have a four stroke for my slow boat, (17 Whaler) that gets much better mileage, and I use it for long runs. I like two strokes for my motocross bikes, because I can swap a top end in about an hour including putting away my tools. Toys like boats and motocrossers are a very different thing than people who don't care about mechanical things and just want basic transportation they can afford.

-Peter

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"50".. Zesty was talking to me. Thats his way of calling me a skilled craftsman when his mangina is hurt ... :thumbsup:

Bradly, I'd say that FJB's handlers declared war on fossil fuel the day they swore him into office ... the US automakers made a knee-jerk decision , grabbed the gub-ment hand out and fell head over heels in love with $***box electric cars. However, the American buying public is not so convinced to spend THEIR OWN money on them. Sure there are exceptions to that, but we already covered the PT Barnum aspect .. :smiletest:

You are correct, I do have a shed. It's a tin 8'x 10' sitting on a concrete slab. It' sits offset of my gravel floor 12' x 30' boat house. I keep my personal boat stuff it there.
I have a paint booth as well ... but its a lot like you pulling your oversize boat down the road .. I'm not sure its 100% legal .. so I won't speak about that ... :D

The building I weld, sleeve, bore and hone those blocks in, is .03214 acres in size. Some days its way to small, other times ... its way too big. It is just the right size that I have control of everything that goes out the door. If I send it .. it's ready to final wash and hang together or bolt on and turn the key ... as opposed to .. well, capt. err ... commadore, you know .. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by pcrussell50

Barry, I agree. And I said as much:

Outside of accidents, ICE fires occur from acts of neglect or improper maintenance, such as failing to cover the positive terminal and all hot side wires terminations, or deteriorated hot side insulation, shade-tree mods, that kind of thing.

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Peter - Just seems that excluding what I understand is the leading cause of vehicle fires smells a bit like cherry picking your data. I mean, we live in a world where vehicle accidents happen so it does matter. But appears you are simply making a point about the safely of lithium ion batteries in isolation from their use. Fair enough but the full data says a BEV is much less likely to burn while than an ICE.

I suppose there are statistics that no ICE autos burn while plugged in and recharging. And no BEV burn at the gas pump. And on and on.

But I probably should have just ignored all this, everyone has their mind closed already.

I thought we had a nice challenge for the scream and flyers here!?.

Buy a thundercat, mount a Elco 50Hp on with with 4 Lithium battery,s and tell us how it works out!.

I would do it myself but still trying to sell a gearcase i bought to prove a point.
So instead of endlessly debating this lets follow Kennedy,s words and before the end of this month somebody in the US bought a Thundercat with an Elco outboard went out succesfully returned to the harbour without catching fire, electrocuting himself or fizzeld into oblivion. :cheers:

This should be into the budget of people who do not have to dumpsterdive!. :cool:

[QUOTE=XstreamVking;3358633]Do not argue with the four stroke and electric guys. They will tell us what to do and apparently we will have no choice in the matter. Hey, it’s for our own good so they say, and it doesn’t matter if you give them solid facts and figures.

All the way back on post # 143 I spoke how the content would turn out.

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just heard that the CEO of Toyota has stepped down because Toyota is falling behind in the EV development

All auto manufacturers will be in big financial problems because they are late in the adoption of EVs , as Tesla surges forward with even more sales after their price reduction across all Tesla cars and most Teslas are meeting the 7500 tax credit





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Originally Posted by BarryStrawn

Peter - Just seems that excluding what I understand is the leading cause of vehicle fires smells a bit like cherry picking your data. I mean, we live in a world where vehicle accidents happen so it does matter. But appears you are simply making a point about the safely of lithium ion batteries in isolation from their use. Fair enough but the full data says a BEV is much less likely to burn while than an ICE.

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Barry,
Yes I was excluding accidents. Because I am not disputing any figures that are put forth about the number of fires caused by accidents, BEV vs ICE. Although a fire is not a fire is not a fire. It would be interesting to see if there are any data that break out the severity of lithium fires versus petro fires... Beyond what we already know from the physics and chemistry of lithium fires vs petro fires. IOW, do the accident data support support what science already knows about the severity of a lithium fire vs. a petro fire? Or is the accident-fire data not granular enough to do so? I suspect the latter... that lithium fires caused by accidents, align well with what science would predict about their outcomes.

My greater, (cherry picked if you will), point was the issue of fires that start through no neglect on the part of the owner, and no physical damage, (other than a single congenital fault in a single cell). It is a thing. Enough of a thing that in countries far ahead of us in forced adoption of BEV, it is enough of a thing to generate responses in both technology and policy. We should look for the same things to happen here as our own forced adoption policies gain momentum.

-Peter

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Originally Posted by noli

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just heard that the CEO of Toyota has stepped down because Toyota is falling behind in the EV development

All auto manufacturers will be in big financial problems because they are late in the adoption of EVs , as Tesla surges forward with even more sales after their price reduction across all Tesla cars and most Teslas are meeting the 7500 tax credit





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Noli,

You do realize that this is a 100% government agenda and nothing else. I would ask you to take a second and visualize what will happen if/when a major evacuation takes place and there is no electric for an extended time. Panic will set in, everyone will be running for a plug and shutting the grid down, people will be stranded due to lack of charging stations and vehicle range etc. etc.

The reason these are going to sell in todays market is because they "government and manufactures" are going to force them into the market with cost incentives that we "the citizens of this country" fund and pay for. There is no magic wand that Bewildered and his team can wave and have a "E.V. implementation fund" magically appear. The money ALL comes from us or they "our elected leaders" borrow it on our behalf.

When they get a range equal to two or three tanks of fuel then it will be a different situation. Right now the best option is electric assist with on board generation. The other key factor is that 80% of new U.S. vehicle sales are SUVs and Trucks. We are a country of pullers and travelers....

Joe

noli ... tomorrow's the deadline to show up in an EV in your name .. to collect your free lunch ... :D

Las Vegas ... odds has it ten to one ... you will owe me lunch ... :p

FJB tax credit ... while some cars may qualify ... most American's do not. Just another part of the flim-flam can't give em away ... scam. :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzxLYooyCRg

Tesla stock down 20% Ford suffered the same fate. :eek:

The Mexico / China made E-rustang is getting a $5900.00 price cut ... I would imagine because sales are booming ... :nonod:

https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...-e-2023-01-30/

However, back in the real world .. ;)

Anyone who has been watching Barret-Jackson knows that the high end collector car market is setting record high prices. :thumbsup:

Between POS golf carts being the only thing being pushed on the sheeple .. and sixty's - seventy's , American iron out of reach for most people .. mid ninety to early two thousands .. cars are selling for twice the price they were two years ago ... :o

lets go Brandon ... what a soup sandwich .. his handlers have created .. :p

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Originally Posted by PanRonnie

I thought we had a nice challenge for the scream and flyers here!?.

Buy a thundercat, mount a Elco 50Hp on with with 4 Lithium battery,s and tell us how it works out!.

I would do it myself but still trying to sell a gearcase i bought to prove a point.
So instead of endlessly debating this lets follow Kennedy,s words and before the end of this month somebody in the US bought a Thundercat with an Elco outboard went out succesfully returned to the harbour without catching fire, electrocuting himself or fizzeld into oblivion. :cheers:

This should be into the budget of people who do not have to dumpsterdive!. :cool:

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Ronnie, not even the delusional .. electric, boat, car, truck, plane, helo, claimed supporters would throw a wooden nickel into a fruitless project ... ;)

First thing you will need is a fire / rescue boat ... :smiletest:

https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1NTIiq...Navigation.jpg

However as your friend .. I'm willing to throw in a ... five pack of Chinese battery's ... :thumbsup:

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/81wAA...4d/s-l1600.jpg

There is a catch .... you have to let me have a minute with the project, once your experiment is over ... :D

https://media.midwayusa.com/producti...142/142263.jpg