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No -------not even Mazda with its RX7 have made it a viable proposition, Know some of the snowmobile companys have rotary models running, but nobody has bet the farm on it, they just all know the damned thing is going to turn round and bite you, like it has done with everyone who ever got involved with it.
I honestly think, that piece of kit has had more money poked at it than any other motor, and has broken more hearts than Greta Garbo.
Seems to me there might be a piece of this story missing.......
Namely Edgar Rose and his role in this....... Correct me if I am wrong but Edgar was with Curtis Wright before his stint at OMC....and I believe the Wankel transitioned from CW to OMC at about the same time as Edgar did.
Can anyone else fill in the blanks here?
T2x
cant compare to the success of a small block chevy, but Mazda still uses the rotary engine to this date, and has started testing hydrogen/gasoline hybrid rotary engines as well.
So successfull was Mazda in IMSA GTP that they outlawed the engine for that racing.
Rotax (ski-doo) is equipped with a rotary disk intake,n that's the begining n the end of rotary snowmobiles:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by jackie wilson
SOOOOOOOOO- there you have it. There is no such animal as a profit making 'Wankel' A few diehards will always be pulling it off the shelf to have another crack at it, but the solid fact is IT IS A FLAWED PIECE OF KIT, that nobody has made viable in over 100 years. In a nutshell------It's in the name---- WANKEL !!!!!!!
Ken:
I read the posts and he is just a cantankorious old fart that got his ass kicked by the rotaries. As he indicated, Mercury hoped they would break or they knew they would get their butt kicked. Kinda like Paris where the rotaries had a 15/20 minute lead in a 6 hr race before sabotoge took over. Or Provo where the rotaris lapped the first place Merc in 15 mimutes. Leave it alone, he just likes to see himself in the spotlight. He is right thou, Jimbo and Tommy did rub it in Mercs face on the first lap at Parker.
John Sheldon
So, Ken (& John) ... where are rotaries now? I think that proves out Jackie's point
Behind the scenes emails from John Sheldon...........
Ken:
I already talked to BRP. They have no objections. In fact when BRP bought OMC they did not buy any rights to the rotary engine. OMC had sold everything they had to Moller International. Go to his web site. I know Paul Moller well, and in fact have worked with him on rotaries. He has all of OMC drawings, machinery, inventory etc. Paul has spent over $40 million dollars over the last 25/30 years further developing the basic 538cc OMC engine, along with prototyping several other new displacements. He now has a water cooled version of the 538cc engine producing in excess of 80hp and meets the California emissions requirement for "ultra low" designation. He is also collecting anything made powered by a rotary engine. He would give his left nut to get one of the 4 rotor racing engines for his collection. If I ever get time, I'm thinking about writing the history of the complete rotary program at OMC. We had put rotaries in everthing from golf carts, to chainsaws, to secret government drones, in addition to snownmobiles, inboard/outboards and outboards.
There is so much the world doesn't know about OMC's rotary program and how far advanced OMC was on rotary technology at the time. They were eons ahead of Wankel GMBH, Mazda or anyone else for that matter. One story I didn't tell in my article was the US Defense department insisted OMC make and sell the 4 rotor power plant to the government. At 300HP and 137 lbs. there was not any other power plant in the world at the time with that power to weight ratio. OMC refused and was threaten with government intervention. It never happened though.
John Sheldon
From Ken: This thread is really not about what could have been but what was. It was remarkable stuff. What lies in the future?? Who knows
HMMM. 'scuse me . did you say " Paul has spent $40,000,000 on developing a single OMC 538cc rotary ? By my reckoning something like 150 hp per liter. Wow. how good is that ? Bike engines have been doing that for umpteen years !!!!!!! Told you the damn thing has swallowed more money than any other project since the moon landings and teaching bankers how to steal your money and stay outa jail, The thing is Taboo ----and yes i am a cantankerous old fart. But your memory has not stood the test of time .20 mins lead in the Paris 6 hrs---they never ran long enough to get a 20 min lead [except on paper] anywhere. Swear to god that look on Jimbo's face was pure joy at having done one lap in the lead in a rotary, Never did 2 though did he ?? Wasn't sabotage mate. it was a ticking time bomb of your own making. WHERE ARE THEY NOW??? If $40mill. don't get the job done , what will ??? Old Cranky
Wanted to give Ol Cranky an opportunity to speak before I jumped in here.....he's right, they have to be able to run more than 20 minutes to build a 20 minute lead!Quote:
Originally Posted by LIQUID NIRVANA
Someone has got a very distorted recollection of the 1973 Provo 250, and I don't think it is me. If it was "The Race", none of us at Merc knew it.
I was in charge of Hi Performance Products at the time and one of our projects was the development of the KT package. I had been told months before Provo that we had four races to complete our work.....Redwood City, Walker Lake, Provo and Elsinore. I knew we were going to Provo long before I heard anything about the rotarys being there. I'm sure Garbrecht did his politicing with Mary West to try to get them banned before the race, but she decided that it was special events.....they were allowed and we went anyway.
The idea that Merc threw everything it had at Provo is nonsense. We knew we didn't have an outboard that could match the speed of the bigger and more powerful rotary, so what are we going to throw? Bringing "twins" amounted to Reggie Fountain running his three year old 21' Glastron/Molinari. Now there's a real factory threat.....our own singles were faster than that twin! :rolleyes: "Flying in the European drivers" amounted to Bob Spalding entering the race. Bob was in the middle of a one year contract to race in the states for Merc and was living in Oshkosh, Wisconsin at the time. He didn't "fly in" from anywhere, he pulled his Team boat to Provo with a Merc truck! Saying that we brought our new pickle forks doesn't mean we did something special for Provo. We had two of those boats at the time and had raced them before Provo.....were we supposed to leave them at home? But even more important than the inaccuracy of those comments from Mr. Sheldon, is the real story of what he did not mention. I can't give it to you exactly as it happened, but I will be close.
When the boats came screaming past the pits completeing the first lap, it was something like rotary, rotary, rotary, Bob Hering and the fourth rotary was in fifth. There is no way in the world that the rotarys lapped the lead Merc outboard in fifteen minutes, Hell....he was running with them! Gary Peacock had gotten a bad start in the Merc KT and came back about tenth on the first lap. Then things got very exciting :D ..... On about the 3rd lap, Peacock came back ahead of a rotary! That was the first time anything other than a rotary had passed a rotary when it was running at full song!!! :cheers: He came back the next lap in front of Hering (Merc's fastest outboard) and then proceeded to do one of the coolest things I have ever witnessed.....he picked off the leading three rotarys one at a time! He passed the lead boat (Barry Woods I think) right in front of the pits :cool::cool::cool:.
This race has become one of my all time favorite memories. I was standing a few feet away from Charlie Strang and a bunch of OMC personnel at the time all of this was happening. When Peacock passed Woods, one of those guys turned and looked at me. He smiled and said "that boat do run-run". Charlie smiled and nodded in agreement. I believe I said "yes it do". Every time I hear the "do run - run" song on the radio I think of that moment. :D After the race Peacock told me that he could have passed Woods sooner, but wanted to do it in front of the pits.....I told him that I really liked his style.:reddevil: Peacock broke about ten laps later, but we didn't care.....everyone knew there was a new sheriff in town and he was powered by Mercury :cheers:.
There were no Merc execs left behind at the airport. As a matter of fact, my recollection is that everyone at Merc was pretty damn happy. The KT had stolen all of the rotarys fire, it was the buzz in the pits and the press! There were several articles written about it racing past the OMC outboards and the story was repeated when the KT beat the entire field by about three laps at Elsinore!
I checked Powerboat and it said three out of the four rotarys broke. The lone remaining rig driven by Tom Posey did win the race. However, my math says he only averaged about 77 mph. That tells me he must have backed off quite a bit in hopes of keeping that engine together. He didn't have to run hard at the end because the hot stuff was already out.
I guess all of this only means that the rotarys were bigger and faster and were still unreliable. It was good that they had their fun on the first lap at Parker, Posey didn't finish lap two and Jimbo was in trouble around lap three. I have said many times that they were certainly impressive, but I get a little excited when the racing stories about them are blown a bit out of proportion. :nonod:
The "Giant Killer"...........
Watch out for the crap Willa ----you just went and gone and done it--pissed all over the parade big time, i knew there was SOMETHING ABOUT YOU I LIKED
Whoa there...why the personal attack? He's Jackie Wilson, a guy who raced.... and beat..... an awful lot of real boat racers both in OMC and Mercury hulls. Nothing personal Mr. Sheldon, but did I miss your Paris, Parker, and Havasu racing career?Quote:
Originally Posted by LIQUID NIRVANA
I appreciate your efforts in bringing this story to us...but the OMC Mercury wars were long ago........and Black Power won.
Get over it.
T2x
I knew this would happen. BASH BASH BASH BASH. You lot are SICK. with HATE, HATE HATE. It never ends. I start a thread of great information & you crawl all over it & destroy it. I hope you are proud of yourselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LIQUID NIRVANA
As with most interesting stories with more than one party involved, you usually learn the whole story by listening to both sides rather than just one.
There was no reason to forward the personal remark by Mr. Sheldon ... you are the basher who has diluted the informational tone of the thread.
My oh my, temper ,temper ,temper, do not throw the dollies any more,--cease- desist, ----give over-- stop it before you do yourself a mischief. Who are 'YOU LOT'---?Quote:
Originally Posted by LIQUID NIRVANA
With hand on heart i can honestly say, i have never HATED anyone!!!!!.
The only thing i hate is cancer, which took my eldest daughter.!!!!!
Am sound of mind totally, and body mostly.
You did start one of the great threads of all time, but surely it's open for discussion. None of us is hell bent on destruction, and yes, we have picked holes in a few of your innaccuracies .
If you can't stand the heat -----outta the kitchen--you know the addage.
Yup, i am quite proud of myself, done a lot of good, brought up a great family, 5 kids, 13 grandkids, and 5 great grandsons. Didn't always get it right, but learned from my mistakes, and it's only my friends and family that call me cranky.
I would very much like for this thread to continue, because there is much to discuss about the rotary, but let's not get into a crap slinging match.