In post# 13009 ….Are these motors the first generation of the Johnson Stinger Scorpion race engines? Circa 1971?
How much horsepower would they produce considering a stock engine was labeled as 115 hp.
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In post# 13009 ….Are these motors the first generation of the Johnson Stinger Scorpion race engines? Circa 1971?
How much horsepower would they produce considering a stock engine was labeled as 115 hp.
@tgsearay
Correct..the Johnson Stinger V4 come out 1969/70 and won the Paris 6 Hour race 1970 in this #12 boat.
My best guess is around 150HP at that time.
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachm...4&d=1504237483
Is that an OMC SST100 engine? My understanding was it was a V4 mounted atop a V8 mid and gearcase? Fred Miller was the point of contact in the APBA for anyone interested in these engines. The class struggled on and off for several years then disappeared. The engine showed up at an odd time for racers and boat builders. Too big for SE and F3 boats but kind of small for V6 hulls. OMC should be complimented for building an engine intended for the hobbyist racer.Quote:
Originally Posted by lars strom
Hi Lars i was told the early ones were around your guess but over the years they improved them over 4 years i was told they had dyno tests nearer 200hp.I had a std V4 Stinger in 1970 that was around 150hp only 2 std engines came to the UK in that year.My teamate Bill Shakespeare had a Factory Stinger the cylinder heads on his engine had around 250 thou off the heads compared with mine 250 thou is around a quarter off an inch which suprised me when you shut my engine off if was like a stock engine still turned a couple of times Bills factory engine sounded a much deaper exhaust note and when shut off stopped dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by lars strom
The photo is a v6Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterZebra
But yes if they allowed modded 140 loopers the class could have been 200hp and still pump gas reliable
200 like 300hp from ccc the cylinders move ( blow head gaskets) too much hence neither engine could race at those power settings so my OMC factory guy told me.Quote:
Originally Posted by STEVERINO
When the OMC 2.5ccc V6 engine became availible in 1977 Paul Kalb at OMC Brugge supplied 4 race engines for .drivers in Europe he had a new 5th engine in a crate in storage he told me it was for Irwin Zimmerman i have no idea why he never had it.Paul Kalbe had no new propellors for the new engines they had a 18months wait time so he ran 2.0v6 propellors but some ran 8400 rpm and the engines wouldn`t last.The technitions at Brugge had to rebuild my blown engine but it was always down on power i could never keep up with my own teamates.when the Amsterdam race came up Paul told me he would take the powerhead off the new engine that was meant for Zimmerman and it went like stink and it lasted more than 20 hrs racing time which was good for those days.The strange thing was Zimmerman was in the Amsterdam race running a factory Velden Merc/V6.Quote:
Originally Posted by lars strom
Erwin Zimmermann in his #15/#77 Molinari/Bosch/Johnson V6 RS in Paris 6 Hours 1978.
Yes its me in the #11 Molinari/Saffa/Evinrude V6 CCC
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachm...4&d=1540747574
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachm...5&d=1743012294
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachm...6&d=1743012314
Its a V6 looper/carb..(my guess the 3 liter block)
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachm...2&d=1742969307
More of today's Evinrude racing.
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachm...9&d=1743231372
Congratulations to Ray Leach on his win this weekend in Florala Alabama.:cheers:
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachm...5&d=1743312079
Guy Hanson
Restoring this motor
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachm...0&d=1743406612
In my first year of the UIM F1-V8 world racing series 1983, it was 11 races confirmed in good time before the racing season.
Both in Europe and the United States.
Attached are the races and dates in Italian.
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachm...1&d=1743435456
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachm...2&d=1743435456
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachm...3&d=1743435456
Tony Fahey's Johnson Stinger GP powered Shell Sport (ON) 1975
Attachment 541610
The French Brothers.
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachm...2&d=1743492896
Would have been nice if BRP had SUPPORTED things like this.
If BRP did not support a racing program, then where did the racing/high performance parts (lower units/gearcases,engine mods.)? Cowling states 250 but was the actual HP much higher?
Keith Whittle tried to get factory help. The mid section and gearcase are old V8 race stuff. The cowl is stock motor pan is custom made by
him or by someone he knows. This is the same type deal the people that ran in the 24 hours of Reuan did. Keith's boat was in one of BRP magazines and he did not even know. I sent him a copy. He and his son ran an E-tec around Great Britain in an offshore race think it was a
90 hp. You can do all kinds if You try. BRP has never been much help.
This answers a ton of questions I had for these engines too! The buckets are not something BRP, 2nd Effort or OMC did, that's for sure! Nice work though! If you notice the majority of F1 guys, the cowlings are generally black but the name "Merc" is seldom seen on the sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by keith scotton
Anna-Marie Trindall
It might not be right but to me F1 will always be the 3.5 litre Johnson and Evinrude V8's and not V6. First F1 race I saw was 1981 in the Netherlands, I saw countless races at Bristol and Nottingham, then there was liege in 1984 where tom Percival lost his life. In 1985 at Lyon, I saw #19 Enrico vidoli take off. Scariest by far was 1988 at Pittsburgh when a boat driven by Canadian Robert Wood veered off course and went into the crowd.....I was literally right where it happened and had to move bloody fast. ALL my experiences watching F1 has been with the V8 Evinrude and Johnson monsters.
Granite City Sports Notables.
Bill Seebold Jr.
The Seebold family, the most famous name in power boat racing, was inducted into the St. Louis Sports Hall of Fame in 2012.
Bill Seebold, Jr. was born on February 23, 1941 in Fenton, MO. At the tender age of 11, Bill Jr. won his first boat race, starting his career in stock-engined outboard boats that hit top speeds of about 26 miles per hour. Seebold, Jr. claimed his first American Power Boat Association national points title just six years later in 1958…a title that launched arguably the most successful powerboat racing career in the history of the sport.
The bulk of his 46 year career was spent racing in “tunnel-hull” outboard boats, which fly over the water on a cushion of air. Upon retiring in 1997, he had accumulated 69 World and National Championships with over 900 racing victories.
Boat racer Bill Seebold once said he could kick your butt on the water, share a beer with you afterwards and somehow leave you enjoying both experiences.
Seebold won more than 900 races and 69 world and national titles in a 46-year career. He retired after the 1997 season, in which he won the PROP Tour Formula One championship at the age of 57. Most of the drivers he beat that season were young enough to be his sons. Two of them were his sons.
Seebold spent most of his career in "tunnel-hull" outboard boats, which fly over the water on a cushion of air. Higher speeds -- and greater risk of blowing over -- are attained by trimming more of the boat into the air and leaving less to drag in the water. Skill and experience are at a premium as success demands that the boat be driven at the edge of control.
Seebold was a fierce competitor with a sixth sense for putting his boat where few other drivers could put theirs, and for knowing where competitors were going to turn before they decided themselves.
But he left his aggressiveness on the water. On shore he was a modest, personable man who almost always had a smile on his face. Bill grew up in Granite City, Illinois, and attended school there. Bill and his father owned and operated a prop shop on Madison Avenue in Granite City.
Seebold followed his father into boat racing. Bill Sr., known as "Grandpa" Seebold, started racing boats in 1938 and was himself a national champion. Bill Jr. won his first boat race at the age of 11, starting his career in stock-engine outboard boats. The young Seebold was a natural racer, his father said. "Billy just had a knack for figuring things out."
Seebold Bill earned his first American Power Boat Association (APBA) national points title in 1958. Boats of that era were driven from a kneeling position and reached 95 miles per hour, making every wave feel like a concrete wall.
"But if you won, it seemed like your knees didn't hurt so bad," Seebold recalled.
Bill met his wife, Lynne, at a boat race on the Mississippi River at St. Louis. His career took off in 1970 when he joined the legendary Team Mercury during a glorious period in boat racing history. The Seebold name became known on rivers and lakes across North America and Europe as he won championships on the world's top circuits.
Seebold won the Paris 6-Hour Race in 1974 and six Union Internationale Motonautique (UIM) world championships from 1975 to 1990. He won the Duke of York Trophy at Windsor, England, five times from 1978 to 1983.
In North America, Seebold was champion of the FONDA circuit in 1981 and the International Outboard Grand Prix in 1989, 1993 and 1994.
A hard-charging, late-season drive in 1997 brought him from the middle of the pack to the PROP Tour title, allowing him to end his career on top.
Seebold is a seven-time winner of the prestigious Bud Light St. Louis Grand Prix, considered the "Indy 500" of boat racing. He helped start the race as a member of the Concord Village Lions Club, which has raised more than $2 million for St. Louis-area charities through the race and other activities.
Many of Seebold's greatest accomplishments were achieved after age 40. "My longevity had a lot to do with love of the sport," he said. "That kept me physically and mentally in shape."
Seebold has devoted much of his life to the development of amateur and professional boat racing. The family boat-building business produces up to half of the Formula One boats assembled in the world each year.
The family legacy continues through sons Mike and Tim, who have won three Formula One championships. With their father serving as team manager, they finished first and second in the 1998 PROP standings.
"I don't know of anyone who has done as much for the sport as Bill has," said Mike. "He had a great racing career -- an unbelievable racing career."
"It's pretty tough to compete with Bill's accomplishments," Tim added. "When you're a Seebold, everyone is watching you and trying to be a little bit better. You're always challenged to be the best."
Seebold stayed in top form until his last race. "I always gauged my success by the fear of the other drivers," he said. "I figured I was still competitive if they were more afraid of me than I was of them."
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachm...3&d=1743870581
"Boat racer Bill Seebold once said he could kick your butt on the water, share a beer with you afterwards and somehow leave you enjoying both experiences."
This quote from Lars' post is a telling character of Bill Seebold.
I having competed in multiple sports, identify with the quote. Competing in ball sports, or just playing cards and other games with friends, this quote above applies to all the talented guys you like being around.
@Lake X Kid
Love Mr. Bill,
Met him the first time in Paris in the early seventies and got the very friendly feeling directly.
Many great memories over the years. Not only from racing, but as a friend at Lake of the Ozarks.
He is one very unique person and makes anyone around him feel good.
This is from Lake of the Ozarks in June 2021.
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachm...0&d=1743879250
Miami Boat Show 2009.
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachm...7&d=1743923547
EVINRUDE SILVER GIRL
Brooks Stevens was involved in many areas of design for Evinrude over the years. In this case, he was the creative director for the 1974 Evinrude catalog cover featuring the 135hp Silver Starflite. While it may not seem so today, 50 years ago 135 horsepower was a very big deal - as was factory installed power trim & tilt. And, just two years later, Evinrude would surprise the entire boating world – including Mercury – with the introduction of the 200hp V6. The outboard power race was on.
Brooks Stevens Design – By the 1970’s, Brooks had established a very successful design firm, staffed by talented designers. While Brooks oversaw key accounts like Evinrude, the day-to-day contact work for Evinrude was done by designers John Bradley and Tom Green.
Brooks Stevens Legacy – Brooks began in 1934 and became one of America’s most original and prolific industrial designers. Along with numerous automobiles Stevens designed motorcycles, railroad trains, pleasure boats, motor homes, appliances, office furnishings and, of course nearly every Evinrude Outboard and Snowmobile, plus various Cushmans and Lawnboys. In addition, he was responsible for styling all of the Gale sub-brands - plus various Johnson outboard and snowmobile models.
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachm...8&d=1743925136
I wonder how long the model spent in the make-up chair before the photo was taken? Was there a chance that OMC could have introduced their V6 the same year Merc did in 1974. Did the rotary program have something to do with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by lars strom
Both OMC and Merc introduced their production V6 1976. (Merc 175HP and OMC 200HP)
The racing V6 came much earlier.
OMC won Paris 6 hours 1973 with the first racing V6.
The Johnson V6 Stinger GP was raced for the first time in Paris 6 hours 1973 and won the race.
https://svera.se/blogg/the-johnson-v...-won-the-race/
FACT: In 1974 the State of California banned all 2-cycle motorcycles from public streets without any emission standards, because Honda had shown 4-cycle motorcycles were cost and performance competitive while reducing emissions substantially. EPA was also running tests in Fl. and Mi. trying to prove 2-cycle outboards harmed water and aquatic quality.
OPINION: Seeing what Ca. did and EPA was trying to do, OMC was concerned similar restrictions could happen to the marine business if someone demonstrated a lower emission competitive outboard. OMC's 110 HP rotary outboard was cost and performance competitive with 10x lower HC than similar HP 2-cycles. Having only 1 or 2 model rotaries ready for production would have caused a disaster if the 2-cycle was banned. Development and retooling cost and time would have been prohibitive. Thus adding 2 cylinders to the existing V-4 made economic and competitive business sense. The rotary was put on the back burner and with the exit of most of the rotary engineering team, further development was curtailed. It's been argued the Homelite/Fisher Price 4-stroke outboard was available and could have been used against 2-strokes, but it was far from competitive in performance and cost. As a side note, OMC had a 210HP oil cooled rotary outboard and stern drive running in 1970.
@Rotary John
Thanks
Wow..Bob is the man..https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/e...1/16/1f44d.pnghttps://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/e...1/16/1f44d.pnghttps://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/e.../1/16/2764.pnghttps://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/e.../1/16/2764.pnghttps://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/e...f1fa_1f1f8.pnghttps://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/e...f1fa_1f1f8.png
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachm...9&d=1679759461
Jack Aylsworth
The ‘Go-Anywhere’ OMC Trackster - LAWSUIT SPECIAL
Unfortunately, this cool machine was the centerpiece of a major lawsuit against OMC. The ad below (lower right) is a notable example of overstating the product’s capabilities and thereby aiding the plaintiff in making (and winning) their case. It changed the way we made product performance claims - and wrote product copy - following the case.
"Makes The Impassable Possible" was a key statement regarding what the Trackster could provide. These are the kinds of over-statements / promises that litigious lawyers love. This over-promising marketing line was apparently a lynch pin in the case. The Trackster reportedly would climb a “much steeper” hill than it could go down without rolling over forward. Ouch!
Actually, this was a great little machine. You just had to manage its capabilities.
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachm...7&d=1744046728
I remember the law suit well I was an integral part of all the pre & post as well as depositions & buy backs. The statement makes The Impassible Possible was penned by the Engineer who designed the machine. You could come back down the hill that you climbed. The operators always thought coming down to pull back on the T handle that actuated the hydrostatic transmissions when they thought it was about to accelerate which potentially could cause the machine to rise up on the front track. Here is what actually happened during the incident involving Spider Sabich’s dad & a lose of life. While coming down the hill or mountain face there was a 5” vertical face Rick or piece of a stick. The machine rose up & obviously came down on the front track then when the operator accelerated it rolled forward & flipped. During the actual trial our Trackster expert & the then Cushman engineer set up a similar hill slope wise plus a simulated vertical face. The jury went out to the test hill for the simulation. Both were very anxious but without a trial first they were able to go over the vertical face without flipping. One jurist asked to see it again but the judge over ruled. OMC didn’t lose the trial, the insurance carrier settled on the courthouse steps. OMC late sued the insurance carrier & won.Quote:
Originally Posted by lars strom
One of our conciliatory solutions was to contact all owners of the product both commercial & personal, explaining the potential operational issue, that if they no longer felt that they could operate their machine safely, we would buy it back at a formulated price. We did many. We sent out a team to train commercial accounts if they wanted such training. One such account was Lion Country in northern NJ.
this was a great experience fir me personally & my very first challenging role after racing for & then being employed by OMC.
Johnson Stinger - THE MEAN MACHINE – The first ‘hot orange’ Stinger 65 was introduced in 1972 on NBC’s splashy national TV special “Discover Wet” hosted by Johnny Carson’s sidekick Ed McMahon at Cypress Gardens. By the early 1970’s, Johnson styling had become a bit conservative - and certainly not flashy!, So the introduction of a screaming orange outboard was quite jarring...if not daring from a marketing standpoint. Launched as a “1972 Limited Edition” model - just in case screaming orange was too daring - the 65hp Stinger was an instant hit. The 1972 / 1973 model, shared identical mechanicals with the standard 49.7 cu. in. Johnson 65 looper producing its BIA certified horsepower at 5000 rpm.
Playing off that initial success, an upgraded 70hp Stinger followed in 1974 with a massive ‘70’ on its flanks. Its additional 5 horses were credited to refined tuning and improved carburetion. Doubling down on performance, horsepower increased again in 1975, now to 75. Again, festooned with a bold horsepower ID on its sides announcing its presence. Those extra 5 horses came from new exhaust ports, a redesigned combustion chamber and a new, low restriction air-intake silencer with a BIA certified 75hp rating at 5500 rpm. A high-compression cylinder head was optional.
Attachment 541786
The V4 Stinger racing engine deserved the orange makeover as well.......Quote:
Originally Posted by lars strom
The F1-V8 pit in London GP 1983.
You more you look..!!..you more you see..!!
The #8 Burgess/Aspen/Evinrude V8. My Volvo racing truck. My Evinrude engine cover on the ground.
Mats Nystrom my mechanic in white t-shirt. Me in my white racing outfit.
Not sure who the third person is with a notebook.
https://www.screamandfly.com/attachm...4&d=1744182199