Backyard Rebuild Failures

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Originally Posted by GregAdams

I am one of those long term industry guys who happens to specialise in outboard raceboats and advanced composites. I like to help people with basic composites because that's how we started. In 1976, my father put a 200 Johno on our 15'8" ski boat and it didn't handle very well, and someone gave us some fibreglass advice so we could modify the bottom. Eight years later I got a job as a laminator on the build of a composite minehunter for the navy. I am not going to tell you the rest :)
I read the forum all the time, but I am hesitant to post. Suppliers refer customers to us for tech advice and latest techniques, yet I am treated like a goose in here if I suggest something that goes against old fashioned "wisdom". I like to help but I don't need the criticism. So I usually only post if someone is not getting the advice they need, or they don't recognise good advice from someone else. I guess I could jump up and down telling everyone how good I am so that they will be impressed and listen, but where I come from, we call a guy who does that, a wanker :D

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Just as a matter of interest what do you consider to be advanced composites ?

I made more money working out in my garage that I did at my full time day job Boat repairs and LENGTHENING SHORT FAT BOATS plus upgrades !,lotus fiberglass sports car repairs !, making smallish thing people wanted . parts for cars , bits for boats ,parts for Vans and special sound equipment . Even did special effects items for television drama programs ! Model making for special effects ! and the list goes on and on !.

QUESTION does any one any where On this forum know how to make ORIGAMI foldable flat cored fiberglass panels ,shiny gel coated completely ALL OVER with radiused corners INTERNAL OR EXTERNAL as small as 12 mm radius without cracking the gel coat any where ??
CAN IT BE DONE ??
IS IT POSSIBLE OR NOT AND IF NOT WHY NOT ??
HAS ANYONE TRIED and if so what happened ??
using this ORIGAMI METHOD could be a way of making stringers and framing for the inside of boats !!

I guess all through my career working with composite's and making and repairing things over many years I been lucky and failures have been very minor IF ANY .
The only one I can recall was a PROBLEM WITH A catalyst pump that happened intermittently for no apparent reason , These problems are a nigh mare .
Patch's of un-catalysed resin all along the side of a big boat .This problem played over and over inside my head all night and the solution to the causes came to me in the early hours of the next morning !,
Arriving at work i went straight to the gun and removed the catalyst pump and dismantled it very very carefully to discover a bent spring holding the tiny check valve ball .A very small thing that caused very big significant problems !.
Took the spring out of its recess and straightened it , refitted back into its recess and checked that it was straight , reassembled and tested , that was 6 years ago ! the problem has never reoccurred again .
From that day forth Red dye was used in the catalyst to show immediately while spraying there is catalyst mixed into the resin .
In nz the Polyester resins used in the boat building industry has a colour change system built into it !.
Starts off blue! , add catalyst changes instantly to green !!, then slowly changes to a yellowish colour and is the working time indicator !, and just before it gels goes clear .

The biggest part of preventing failures from happening I found has been thinking and planning every possible step of what should happen if I do this ,and what could happen if I did that !!.and knowing and understanding the products you are using !!specially gel times in conjunction to catalyst ratio and type !!.

When I arrive at work normally and if we are in the process of doing a big job , My mind has been active for quite a few hours before I have got out of bed .
ACTIVE in respect of doing the job in my mind over and over before I step into the work area!

Training staff I found it very easy to make simple step by step check lists stuck up on the wall in big writing for everyone to see not only for them but myself as well listing every possible scenario and what would be needed .This kind of thinking becomes second nature after a while .

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Originally Posted by tunnels

Just as a matter of interest what do you consider to be advanced composites ?

I made more money working out in my garage that I did at my full time day job Boat repairs and LENGTHENING SHORT FAT BOATS plus upgrades !,lotus fiberglass sports car repairs !, making smallish thing people wanted . parts for cars , bits for boats ,parts for Vans and special sound equipment . Even did special effects items for television drama programs ! Model making for special effects ! and the list goes on and on !.

QUESTION does any one any where On this forum know how to make ORIGAMI foldable flat cored fiberglass panels ,shiny gel coated completely ALL OVER with radiused corners INTERNAL OR EXTERNAL as small as 12 mm radius without cracking the gel coat any where ??
CAN IT BE DONE ??
IS IT POSSIBLE OR NOT AND IF NOT WHY NOT ??
HAS ANYONE TRIED and if so what happened ??
using this ORIGAMI METHOD could be a way of making stringers and framing for the inside of boats !!

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Tunnels...could you post a pic of something made using the "Origami Method" or if you don't have one maybe a sketch of the process. BTW I speak English version 151, type Boston Ma. "We park the car in the Harvard yard" :p ;) Thanks Gary

I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANY ONE DO THIS TYPE OF ORIGAMI FOLDING USING FIBREGLASS EVER ANY WHERE IN THE WORLD !!

Its very very simple !The flat parts you can use a core any sort ,any thickness even core matt or foam or thin balsa what ever , with just a thin glass fabric each side ! Anyone can do that ! the core is shaped and stopped before the corner so a thin glass is used to form the corner !, so once you know what the radius is then you have a measurement so the next core for the next flat part starts and so on ! that's all you need to know !!
Knowing and understanding completely what glass materials are available in the market place and what you can do with each of them is another part of the process .
Take a big cardboard carton and open it out flat and see how its made !! Its completely possible to repeat AND make that box from glass panels so all the information you need to know is all there right in front of you !! and all you have to do is just to copy it exactly what's there !!

The biggest longest single panel was all the fronts panels for the whole interior of the inside of a main cabin of a 38 FOOT yacht that would have taken weeks of work to do as individual panels AND THEN would have had to have be painted .
PLUS the deck was on and the only way to get everything in was through the main companion way !! so folding the whole thing so it could be taking inside the gradually opened out and everything in its place took a little thinking about .
The young Korean lady boat designer I worked with was absolutely amazed and after showing her the system she went away and came back 30 minutes later with all the measurement's of everything I needed to make and be able to fold the whole lot all in one long strip .
There were 13 radiused corners some had 30mm radius and some had smaller had 15 mm radius, some corners were external and a few internal , all glossy gell coated finish and never cracked a single one !!
How its done well That's my secret but if you understand composites you will guess how its possible to do !
ALL THIS ORIGAMI SYSTEM I WORKED OUT BY MYSELF IN MY HEAD LONG TIME AGO WITH OTHER THINGS I HAD MADE AND KNEW AND UNDERTOOD WHAT THE CAPABILITIES OF EVERYTHING NEEDED AND WHAT AND HOW TO USE IT TO MAKE IT DO WHAT I WANTED IT TO DO !!!
SO HOW WELL DO YOU KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENT GLASS MATERIALS AND THERE WEAVES ??
WHAT ABOUT RESINS AND GEL COATS DO YOU UNDERSTAND HOW THEY ACTUALLY WORK ??
PEEL PLY HAD A LOT TO DO WITH THIS PROCESS OF MAKING THINGS BENDABLE AS WELL !!
WHAT CAN PEEL PLY DO FOR YOU DURING THE MAKING OF THINGS ??

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Originally Posted by One Oldman

With all of the extensive 'backyard' rebuilds and repairs going on, how many have resulted in a major failure that you are familiar with? By rebuilds and repairs I am talking about coring, transoms, stringers, etc. What failed and to what did you attribute the failure to? Design, material, workmanship, etc?

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I started this thread a little over a week ago. I was expecting horror stories of transoms falling off, broken stringers, and broke up hulls. After over 850 views and 33 replies, that has not been the case. It seems most of the failures were from someone else’s repairs or, most commonly, the manufacturer. 20 or 30 years seem to be the usual lifespan for most without major repair. Yea, I know there is no reason the lifespan could not be 50-70 years or beyond with better material and quality control.

The amazing thing to me was that they were no real horror stories. Given that many of us have 0 experience and skill levels ranging from awful to expert. Even with our sometimes poor choice of glass, resins, materials, and skills, at least for what seems the most part, serious failures are rare.

Example: My first and only rebuild (working on the second) was a ’83 19V Bullet. It had 3-4 foot cracks running down each side of the pad from bad coring. About 75% of the wood everywhere, but the transom was rotten. I did nothing correctly. I installed coring without bedding and improperly spliced stingers (sister spliced them with thru bolts). Didn’t make a good putty and the list goes on. When I repaired the hull cracks, I just Ved them and used gel paste to fill. Oh yea, I also had numerous places that I damaged prying out the core and other places that I cut through the hull with a circular saw. I just laid a piece or two of glass over the cuts and cored over the many damaged pry places. When I cored it, I used no bedding and simply set it on CSM. Scrimped on resin everywhere. Given that this boat is not used as a high speed application, but I have hit several stumps at 15-20 MPH. One hard enough to nearly flip the boat and another that broke left and right clamp bracket’s, pivot bracket, and bent the pivot shaft. So far the boat is holding up fine and not showing any ill effects from the poor work or collisions. Personally, I wouldn’t trust the boat with anything over a 150 HP on it. That should push it to low 70’s set up right. Then again, I don’t want to ride much over 70 in a 19V Bullet anyway. Yea, and I know it may not last too long the way I built it, but I’m 71. I may not either!

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Originally Posted by boatermike

wonder what ever happened to that crazy guy AFR?

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Originally Posted by XstreamVking

As you can see, the fiberglass forum is a good example of why he might not post here any more. We have lost many excellent glass guys over the years. Some were true fiberglass artists. When I first joined, I was in awe from what I saw and read on here.

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Scott is till around cranking out work. He is redoing another Hydrostream right now. Guy does some great work.

Still not any major issues from anyone?

I think Tunnels mite have a QUESTION . And mite have to start a new thread.

Bugs in your finish coats. Also mouse paw prints, urine puddles, and sh!t jimmies all over new paint.

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Originally Posted by home made tunnel

Bugs in your finish coats. Also mouse paw prints, urine puddles, and sh!t jimmies all over new paint.

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While these are certainly annoying, I don't think they qualify as major failures. LOL

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Originally Posted by home made tunnel

Bugs in your finish coats. Also mouse paw prints, urine puddles, and sh!t jimmies all over new paint.

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HMT Get a cat or if ya don't want cat prints also set up a mouser bucket. 3 gal or smaller pail , 2 holes in rim across from each other , coat hanger wire thru soda can(beer) the long way in middle of bucket with wire thru holes, rag hooked on one end of wire with other on floor, peanut butter spread on can and 2" antifreeze in bucket. Mouse runs up rag , jumps on can to get p-butter, can spins and mouse falls in antifreeze and drowns,trap is auto reset. I have these all over (camp in Me.) and have seen so many mice in bucket that some were standing on all the dead ones!!!! Gary

That's brave,
Look out for pro mice folks
Lol
Need to get that circus show on video

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Originally Posted by olboatman

HMT Get a cat or if ya don't want cat prints also set up a mouser bucket. 3 gal or smaller pail , 2 holes in rim across from each other , coat hanger wire thru soda can(beer) the long way in middle of bucket with wire thru holes, rag hooked on one end of wire with other on floor, peanut butter spread on can and 2" antifreeze in bucket. Mouse runs up rag , jumps on can to get p-butter, can spins and mouse falls in antifreeze and drowns,trap is auto reset. I have these all over (camp in Me.) and have seen so many mice in bucket that some were standing on all the dead ones!!!! Gary

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I tried this once and only got one mouse over the winter… But I don't think the mice had a way to get up into the bucket. The rag hanging to the floor is definitely a much better option to help them climb up bucket! That will be my next project

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/130650...-1/s-l1000.jpg

Just get some poison called tomcat... Good bye, meeces and ratz.....