F1h20 4 stroke Merc v8 variant.

Yeah but, also in a class where the 2 strokes were never designed for or sold to the buying public.
Enter the rule change and now the bike mfgs were racing on Sunday what they sold on Monday.
That ended it over night.

A little fuel for thought, from that era.....

Kenny Roberts called the 4 strokes diesels and laughed at them.
Their new rules allowed 900cc 4strokes to race against the 500cc 2 strokes and called it fair!

Their was a similar class in WERA called Formula Extreme buy they even allowed super charging etc.
Kenny said his Formula 2 (250cc 2 stroke) guys could beat the diesels.

Kenny being Kenny, put his money where his mouth was and sent a team.
Their 250s were competitive but couldn’t beat them.
Kenny paid the team to grind on the 250s to beat the diesels.
The 250cc 2 stroke, 2 cylinders became 400’s and were beating the full zoot, 1000cc 4 strokes on short courses but not long.

Kenny being Kenny, said, fk this, send over a 500cc 2 stroke.
They did and that was that.

In F-1 bike racing, the 4 strokes didn’t beat the 2 strokes because they were better.
They beat them because the teams all knew the future before the ink dried on the new rules and, the fkg 4 strokes were twice the displacement.

Now the mfgs we’re investing in R&D on bikes they were selling and the stock holders smiled.

In Stock Outboard that I raced, the motor mfgs ALWAYS determine classes to favor Motors they build.
Same as every other sanctioning body that allows them in the room.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by engineermike

Funny thing.....Xcat and MotoGP were almost identical in pattern. The first year that 4-strokes were allowed to race against 2-strokes in both series, most teams switched to 4-strokes and soundly dominated the 2-strokes. Two things of note are that....1) most teams took the weight penalty and switched at the first opportunity, and 2) those that switched beat mature combinations even though they were early in their development cycle.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by engineermike

I'm not saying that adding complexity for the sake of complexity is good. I AM saying that adding technology for the sake of performance, reliability, efficiency, and ,most of all RELEVANCE, is good.

---

the Relevance idea is what causes the problem thats adding those items for no reason, its boat racing not engine racing.
Nascar far more exciting because they have efi instead of carbs?? Did they have a reliability, performance or efficiency issue?
If relevance made successful classes we would have a worldwide Prius road racing or would it be drag racing class wouldnt we?
Does anyone care what the maximum fuel flow is in an F1 car?

Xcat is changing back to the original boats with 2 strokes as they can see the very expensive 400 has helped kill it
The new boat with engines will be less than 2 400ros engines...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by engineermike

Funny thing.....Xcat and MotoGP were almost identical in pattern. The first year that 4-strokes were allowed to race against 2-strokes in both series, most teams switched to 4-strokes and soundly dominated the 2-strokes. Two things of note are that....1) most teams took the weight penalty and switched at the first opportunity, and 2) those that switched beat mature combinations even though they were early in their development cycle.

---

dont get confused with factory teams pushing tech with unlimited budgets just because.

in x cat a supercharged engine beat a NA engine yep thats a breakthrough...very expensive technology with lots more power wins...class numbers drop.... and without vendor sponsorship it has just about killed the class.
If Merc wanted to have a say then they should pay, I could live with that so could 99% of racers I'm sure.
So its back to Merc that has killed more classes with its manufacturing decisions than it has has created or supported.
Thats a separate argument to Merc making great consumer performance engines.

Yamaha still make a 700 2s carby stand up to support competition as an example of manufacturer support for racers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by powerabout

the Relevance idea is what causes the problem thats adding those items for no reason,

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They aren't added "for no reason".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by powerabout

its boat racing not engine racing.

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The engine is a pretty big piece of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by powerabout

Nascar far more exciting because they have efi instead of carbs??

---

To many folks, yes. Interesting parallel....NASCAR just announced they're moving from 15" to 18" rims. Why? From the horses mouth, "...the driving factor to try to make it a bit more relevant to what’s on the street today." There's that word again. Why would they worry about relevance anyway? It's car racing, not rim racing, right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by powerabout

Did they have a reliability, performance or efficiency issue?

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EFI is better in all of those areas.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by powerabout

If relevance made successful classes we would have a worldwide Prius road racing or would it be drag racing class wouldnt we?

---

Don't be silly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by powerabout

Does anyone care what the maximum fuel flow is in an F1 car?

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Definitely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by powerabout

Xcat is changing back to the original boats with 2 strokes as they can see the very expensive 400 has helped kill it

---

If this happens, I'll eat my hat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by powerabout

The new boat with engines will be less than 2 400ros engines...

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A new 32' racing cat, rigged with engines, for $90k? Where can I get one?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by powerabout

in x cat a supercharged engine beat a NA engine yep thats a breakthrough...

---

Were you the one going on a while back about how a 2-cycle makes twice the power because of twice the power strokes/rev? You can't take credit for that advantage but then complain about a supercharger on a 4-cycle. I do think it's telling, though, that a work-a-day turn-key reliable 4-cycle can make 30% more power than a high-strung 2-cycle of the same displacement.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by engineermike

They aren't added "for no reason".



The engine is a pretty big piece of it.



To many folks, yes. Interesting parallel....NASCAR just announced they're moving from 15" to 18" rims. Why? From the horses mouth, "...the driving factor to try to make it a bit more relevant to what’s on the street today." There's that word again. Why would they worry about relevance anyway? It's car racing, not rim racing, right?



EFI is better in all of those areas.



Don't be silly.



Definitely.



If this happens, I'll eat my hat.



A new 32' racing cat, rigged with engines, for $90k? Where can I get one?



Were you the one going on a while back about how a 2-cycle makes twice the power because of twice the power strokes/rev? You can't take credit for that advantage but then complain about a supercharger on a 4-cycle. I do think it's telling, though, that a work-a-day turn-key reliable 4-cycle can make 30% more power than a high-strung 2-cycle of the same displacement.

---

so you get excited about a race class because you know the maximum fuel flow allowed...that must be a small club...

nevertheless
back to relevance, I can agree NASCAR needs more relevance on the looks.
I am interested to know where the idea came from for the 18' rims, the organizers just decided or they did a spectator poll?
( they really need a whole new look)

I agree a boosted 4 stroke leaves a high strung 2 stroke behind, power/reliability wise that was never a contest.

https://www.screamandfly.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Chaz https://www.screamandfly.com/images/...post-right.png
...Imagine these are steel rods, no sleeves, no yield, no stop signs, just pure Mercosil to slice thru like warm butter ... :o

Quote:

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Originally Posted by engineermike

Are you referring to the 260/280?

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Chaz= thinkin :

260/280's have sleeves.

Someone needs to "research" the word Mercosil, and have a report on this thread by tomorrow noon. Or a dunce cap will be handed out, to be worn no less than 24 hrs . :eek:

NASCAR turned to NASCRAP with the invent of EFI, Corn, stage racing, playoff's, and hooptie wheels.
If they went back to running hard tires, hydraulic cams, 2 and 4 bbl carbs instead of restrictor plates and runnin in corn fields, then they would get their core fan group of millions of fans back. Marcus Smith sees the handwriting on the wall .. SMI is being sold to Nascar, while he still can.

Chaz .. is also flattered that you choose to imitate my style of multi-quoting .. but be creative and develop your own ... :p

nascar going paddle shift and intermittent wipers to make the racing more relevant, that will bring the fans just watch...

https://www.sunnen.com/newsdetails.aspx?newsid=11


:o

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chaz

Someone needs to "research" the word Mercosil, and have a report on this thread by tomorrow noon.

---

I had an 18hp Merc with Mercosil sleeves.

I also remember reading an academic paper about it, describing it as the best thing since sliced bread.

But it went the way of the 2-stroke outboard.

I think it is time to accept that neither is coming back, because there is better stuff now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Markus

I had an 18hp Merc with Mercosil sleeves.

I also remember reading an academic paper about it, describing it as the best thing since sliced bread.

But it went the way of the 2-stroke outboard.

I think it is time to accept that neither is coming back, because there is better stuff now.

---

Maybe, until 3 cyl etec 150 came out just to remind the opposition they got it wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Markus

I had an 18hp Merc with Mercosil sleeves.

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I'd like to see a sleeve made out of Mercosil ... :eek:

Perhaps what you had was a small twin that had a block cast from a high silica content aluminum. The Merc house brand is / was called Mercosil. No sleeve, no register, no liner. Just a block that is finished bored and honed to size.

It wasn't meant for you ... :nonod: But since you stepped up .. :eek: It's yours for a day ... :)

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.p...=0&w=300&h=300

Quote:

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Originally Posted by powerabout

Maybe, until 3 cyl etec 150 came out just to remind the opposition they got it wrong.

---

Do you have any sales numbers to back that up?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chaz

I'd like to see a sleeve made out of Mercosil ... :eek:

Perhaps what you had was a small twin that had a block cast from a high silica content aluminum. The Merc house brand is / was called Mercosil.

---

Thanks!

While the term sleeve was wrong, I always thought Mercosil was a coating (a budget Nikasil) of the sleeveless bore.

Merosil, Silum and a bunch of other fancy BS names for nothing more than
hypereutectic aluminum. (containing more than 12% silicone) To make it work as a cylinder wall they bump up the percentages up to almost 20% , etch the alum from the surface and hone the silica chrystals that remain into a bearing surface .. No thanks .. :nonod: ;)

https://www.popularmechanics.com/car...-destroyed-gm/

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.2...=0&w=302&h=171

Amazing how some Briggs & Stratton bores look when you pull one apart.

Briggs "cool bore" :rolleyes:

Burnished .. some beyond belief ... :D

some of you fellas are so scared of change it makes me wonder how many pairs of underwear you own...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Markus

Do you have any sales numbers to back that up?

---

only been out a few months, is a new range of engines finally the lightest 150

Nawww NB .. I only married my wife .. ;)

I seem to remember doing more V-8 Vega swaps, than you gots pairs of holey underwear ... :eek: :leaving:

Chaz= thinkin, Mercosil aint nuttin new. Just givin people nuff time to forget .. :rolleyes:

https://markingourterritory.files.wo...14/08/28-7.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chaz

Merosil, Silum and a bunch of other fancy BS names for nothing more than
hypereutectic aluminum. (containing more than 12% silicone) To make it work as a cylinder wall they bump up the percentages up to almost 20% , etch the alum from the surface and hone the silica chrystals that remain into a bearing surface .. No thanks .. :nonod: ;)

https://www.popularmechanics.com/car...-destroyed-gm/

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.2...=0&w=302&h=171

---

All Mercedees v8 were aluminium bores since the 70's, just the right finish and rings

Yep, better buy that extra warranty...One thing folks they could have kept the opti/xs for the hipo smaller boats they didn't WANT to...bean counters merc execs whatever...If f1 wants to make new boats for them and still call it f1 that's fine,probably kill it or morph into something else down the road, only a select few will have one on an stv or the likes anytime soon. So where does that leave us STV/allison guys now...if u cant see past the trees and have to have a merc and want an stv or the likes below 20 ft your future is set.. my advise to you is be careful. If ur a 25-35ft cat guy this doesn't apply to you... this new platform was made for you so be thankful and don't tell me its gonna be the ticket on a 500lb 17-18 t boat.. Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by powerabout

All Mercedees v8 were aluminium bores since the 70's, just the right finish and rings

---

Since then, how many Small Block Chevrolet's ( Gen 1 thru LS ) have been put in everything from air boats to Salt flat's racers over a Benz 10,000 to 1 ...???

The benz uses a "cast in" hypereutectic liner that they choose to call silitec .. just another name for the same old shell game .. :cool:

Hurt one ... no biggie, replace the block ...................... Ppffffttttttttttt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by H2OPERF

Yep, better buy that extra warranty...One thing folks they could have kept the opti/xs for the hipo smaller boats they didn't WANT to...bean counters merc execs whatever...If f1 wants to make new boats for them and still call it f1 that's fine,probably kill it or morph into something else down the road, only a select few will have one on an stv or the likes anytime soon. So where does that leave us STV/allison guys now...if u cant see past the trees and have to have a merc and want an stv or the likes below 20 ft your future is set.. my advise to you is be careful. If ur a 25-35ft cat guy this doesn't apply to you... this new platform was made for you so be thankful and don't tell me its gonna be the ticket on a 500lb 17-18 t boat.. Dave

---

Maybe BRP will come to the rescue, got a 150 3cyl so maybe a 200 v4?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chaz

Since then, how many Small Block Chevrolet's ( Gen 1 thru LS ) have been put in everything from air boats to Salt flat's racers over a Benz 10,000 to 1 ...???

The benz uses a "cast in" hypereutectic liner that they choose to call silitec .. just another name for the same old shell game .. :cool:

Hurt one ... no biggie, replace the block ...................... Ppffffttttttttttt

---

I do remember the hotrod edition where GM said we just made the 25 millionth small block back in the 80's

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by powerabout

Maybe BRP will come to the rescue, got a 150 3cyl so maybe a 200 v4?

---

I think the market is prime right now for a second effort/evolution type shop buy new mod and sell a ready product for those that can't, I wish i was 20 yrs younger....I think the 2.7 small block etec G2 is a good contender for what we do, they are heavy due to all the things we would change..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by powerabout

only been out a few months, is a new range of engines finally the lightest 150

---

For the Mercury V8, it took days rather than months to figure out whether or not it was a success.

[QUOTE=Markus;3168203]For the Mercury V8, it took days rather than months to figure out
Good point but its at the top end of the range so lots of focus.
Can you get them?
It went faster than a 400 so its 100% successful
Who has the world beating 15hp currently?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chaz

Since then, how many Small Block Chevrolet's ( Gen 1 thru LS ) have been put in everything from air boats to Salt flat's racers over a Benz 10,000 to 1

---

That’s because they are dirt cheap, not because they are better engines.

When a 10,000.00 chevy small block makes 1000 hp and it takes 40k to equal it with a "modern" engine you have to wonder if we are really going in the right direction. The chevy s/b blows up, bore it and run the next day. These others need a new block and more expensive parts. Which is superior again?

Again, low cost is not the only consideration.

The modern engine will have higher efficiency, will rev faster and higher, exhibit less vibration, sound better, etc.

High-end versions of the Corvette seem to be getting modern engines, while the low-end versions will stick with push rod engines. It depends on whether you optimize for cost, or for something else.

After reading through this thread, sounds like there should be some guys going into motor design. You don't need to produce it-just design it, show how superior it is to the mercury that you are bashing, prove it with testing for a few thousand hours, you might as well enter some shootouts for publicity and then sell it to a company capable of manufacturing it.

This sounds easy compared to what Mercury has done over the last eight years--they are actually producing them and making money for the investors that back them. "Almost forgot, you need to not infringe on any of there designs and or patents", but that shouldn't be hard as their stuff seems to be no good anyways". It will be interesting to see what your new gear case looks like and how efficient it is "likely to pick up five or six mph in that alone".

When you guys bring your new product to market it will provide you and future generations of your family "happy foreever after money".

I am looking forward to hearing what your warranty is and what you are doing for propellers "Mercury is again is such a rip off". Please keep it around 400 lbs and keep the cost under 20K--after all the 300R for mid 20s is a total "rip off" and a "car motor copy".

I have NEVER witnessed guys bashing the company that they depend on for their hobby to exist like I see here--it really brings ignorance to the front of the line.

Joe

What Joe said....I think it's time more boat manufacturers step up to the plate and build lightweight 21-23ft badass pad tunnels....Just sayin....

Jr.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JPEROG

After reading through this thread, sounds like there should be some guys going into motor design. You don't need to produce it-just design it, show how superior it is to the mercury that you are bashing, prove it with testing for a few thousand hours, you might as well enter some shootouts for publicity and then sell it to a company capable of manufacturing it.

This sounds easy compared to what Mercury has done over the last eight years--they are actually producing them and making money for the investors that back them. "Almost forgot, you need to not infringe on any of there designs and or patents", but that shouldn't be hard as their stuff seems to be no good anyways". It will be interesting to see what your new gear case looks like and how efficient it is "likely to pick up five or six mph in that alone".

When you guys bring your new product to market it will provide you and future generations of your family "happy foreever after money".

I am looking forward to hearing what your warranty is and what you are doing for propellers "Mercury is again is such a rip off". Please keep it around 400 lbs and keep the cost under 20K--after all the 300R for mid 20s is a total "rip off" and a "car motor copy".

I have NEVER witnessed guys bashing the company that they depend on for their hobby to exist like I see hear--it really brings ignorance to the front of the line.

Joe

---

Spoken like a true zealot!

Let me tell you a little about "MY" hobby and your almighty mercury.
Every day your messiah stops making parts needed to keep MY hobby alive.
Every day your messiah raises prices on the parts left that keep MY hobby alive.
Your messiah abandoned MY hobby years ago when that failed, neglected, forgot to make a comparable replacement for the engine that keeps MY hobby alive.
MY hobby has no use for bloated, top heavy, fat gear case, 4 joke, car motors.

Your almighty mercury made an engine for zealots with more money than brains who will run out and buy a new boat just to hang the newest version of the good word on the back.
YOU and YOUR hobby are there target audience, and they knocked it out of the park.

SBC conversation is always brought up. How many of them go at 6,300 rpm for 40 minutes straight? For 75% of its life?

I find it amazing that other outboard manufacturers completely ditch racing/HiPo engines, yet Mercury actually puts out a true High Performance outboard, even offer a racing version, then people **** on them for it. How ridiculous. If you adjust for inflation for the 2.5 stuff you bought in lets say 2000, the cost of a new 300r is right on par. Unfortunately you have to be logically educated to see things this way......Something Whaaaat falls short of. Lol

The truly ignorant will ignore the facts of history, and covet the hype presented to them as today's masterpiece !

ChaZoom ... https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.n...=0&w=300&h=300

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Speed Jr.

I find it amazing that other outboard manufacturers completely ditch racing/HiPo engines, yet Mercury actually puts out a true High Performance outboard, even offer a racing version, then people **** on them for it. How ridiculous. If you adjust for inflation for the 2.5 stuff you bought in lets say 2000, the cost of a new 300r is right on par. Unfortunately you have to be logically educated to see things this way......Something Whaaaat falls short of. Lol

---

I couldn't care less what the 4 joke cost. It's too fat, too top heavy, and completely useless for the boating I do.

Where in my post did I mention what that crap cost. Read the whole post you uneducated nitwit

Whaaat was I thinking. Your hobby is obviously over- so go back to trying to figure out why there are two people in a race boat, continue to build your light weight fully suspended cockpit for your "gonna be better then everything out there" boat, or better yet design a better outboard that appeals to the masses (not everyone is stuck in the 80's, and if you are, now is a great time to escape while the economy is good). Last of all sell anything that you have that says Mercury on it and start over with another marine performance vendor if their current product is so bad and their previous product lines are that unsupported (good luck).

You are blind to the real world and the products that have a valid large demand base.

I too have product that is no longer supported by Mercury. I have product that is no longer supported by Ford. The bottom line is stay within 15 years of the current model and you can still buy parts-if you love vintage then do what others do "collect spare parts-its not rocket science"

Joe

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chaz

The truly ignorant will ignore the facts of history, and covet the hype presented to them as today's masterpiece !

ChaZoom ... https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.n...=0&w=300&h=300

---

Charlie,

The facts of history are that nothing has ever performed as well as what we have available today "out of the box". I bought my first new 2.4 in 1988 and have had several new 2.5 and 3.0 motors since then. I personally think that the 300X was the best motor available for the last 16 years-others loved the XS and I appreciate mine it for its fuel economy but I ran over 200 miles today with the 300Rs and can assure you that the new motors are a joy and I had no concern of where I was going to get fuel or what I had to add to my fuel. On top of that, the torque out of the turns is absolutely addictive.

Joe

You flag *** flapping four stroke homos are nauseating