Working to and withing survey standards

This is just general interest !
Hi again and something else to add to my last post sort of !

Working to and with in Survey standards is interesting and some guys want to run for cover because they think they know it all and the standards given by some of these organizations lay down in writing to work to and with is not right !!
That's what I used to think as well BUT these organizations are there to certify and guarantee a quality of workmanship and guarantee the quality of materials all and everything to make a product ! In my case boats !
Why do we need it ? well if you are a customer and you want to get a boat built and at the end it has a certificate of its standard and quality wouldn't you buy that boat over an identical boat built in someone back yard or a shady company ???? .
When I went to work in Tahiti making fishing boats Dnv had a office in Papeete and to be able to build a fishing boat the people working had to pass a test , Wasn't hard just plain common sense and at the end was down to just plain workmanship and how good it had to be plus in the case of a chopper gun lay up how consistent through out the whole panel !The native guys were shaking in there sandal's when they wore them ! I went first and did my thing then the others followered after they saw what had to be done and on the practical side I knew there workmanship was "A ok " !the took absolute pride int there work but when it came to the theory side that had them beat !!. They lacked to broad knowledge of laminates and the whys and how's etc ! So I passed and the company was able to build fishing boats .but to help the guys we made samples and demonstrated what glasses could do what and if the same lay up was swapped around how it changed and could be stiff or flexible they were like sponges and pick it all up very very quickly .They were the first guys I had seem doing multi colours of gel coat wet on wet and were masters at it

The similar scenario has happened in a few different companies I've worked at and mention the word SURVEY and workers screw up there faces and groan .
Remember its just a MINIMUM STANDARD you need to work to its not difficult !!
Like I said before I told all my guys working for the 147 footer we are never going to Come down to these DNV STANDARDs !! and for four years we were never close to there minimum standard ! The inspectors we never saw when they came to to the factory to do there quality checks in the other part of the factory , and I asked why ?? they were completely satisfied we were doing our job better than the wanted so was no need to come and inspect .

I keep raving and ranting at times and it really gets to me the incompetence of some boat companies and there total absence of staff basic training for there laminating staff and the lack of general knowledge they have of simple everyday run of the mill knowledge ! Most workers are like sheep and they just follow along and do what everyone else does and never ask why or is there a better way or even is there another way or what ever !! also im amazed at the number of foremen that have come from other industries and have never worked in a glass shop , THAT HAS NEVER MADE ANY SENSE TO ME AT ALL !.

When I started and after 3 months in fiberglass I wanted to know everything but its was almost impossible to find information other than what the guy I worked with knew . So I changed jobs every 2 or 3 months and moved from one place to another and learned from all kinds of people all sorts of different things then I came across overseas workers mainly from the UK and they did things much better and quicker and know heaps more than any of the local yokels . Later I started to travel to different countries and oh boy the knowledge bank began to fill very rapidly .
Really there is very little knowledge to learn from books I had discovered , Most books were written in the 1950s and 60s and basic principles never change but new up to the minute general knowledge I have never found .

In the 1970s and 80s Composite engineers and there fancy print out predictions were a dime a dozen and they were all experts every last one of them until something went wrong then they changed there phone numbers or just vanished till the climate cooled and someone else fixed the problems then they slowly reappeared out of the wood work !


So anyone else what to tell there stories ?? there has to be dozens of then!! stories and people !!

I guess one day in the very distant future laminators will have to get a qualification to be able to do composite work of any sort !! In Australia the has a register and you signed up and received a ID number and if you went for a job you just had to give our number and all your work history and skill level was there for the potential employer ! That was a start but that was years ago !!
Like I been pushing for years in NZ there should be a place for FIBREGLASS BOAT BUILDERS and it should be a whole trade all of its own and not tagged onto BOAT BUILDING in general because it is a completely separate trade . Or Composite builders and that would need to be segmented into al sorts of trades and division's including Marine and Aerospace and industrial and commercial just to name a few !
What do you think ??

Oh well I guess building boats to a minimum acceptable standard is to much for most people !! I do remember the first boat I worked on that was in survey we had the foreman almost in a state of panic checking this and checking that and leaning over our shoulder making sure everything was done by the book so to speak ! Thinking back over the years he didn't have a clue because he was the grounds keeper at the local high school before he joined the company and what he knew was from books he had read borrowed from the local library .
Another foreman I worked beside but in another part of the factory was a carpenter builder !BUT he did own a yacht so that was ok ! at least he know what was front and back but used to get confused with port and starboard and the colour of the channel markers !.
The chopper gun operator he had used to play him something terrible and in the middle of a layup would drop a resin soaked rag into a cheese of gun roving ! if you have never seen it done its horrible as the resin goes all through the rings on the boom and the chopper looks like a snow ball ! usually takes a good hour to clean and get things going again . The gun operator also used to complain that the gun was always spraying to much resin so the foreman wanted to sell the gun and get a smaller unit . When I got to hear about it I asked why sell the best gun in the company . So when I was told why I got and fitted a gel coating nozzle to the chopper gun and then they sprayed !! the glass was so dry it was impossible to roll ! the foreman was speechless and wanted to know how was it possible !! He and the operator had played with the gun for weeks to get it right but no one knew what they were doing ! So that's just two dumb foremen i have come across in the first few years of my career in composites !
Survey is there to make sure the new boat owner gets a boat built to a recognized acceptable standard that will have a piece of paper stamped and signed when he accepts his new boat .
There are so many know it all cowboys out there and you really have no idea what actually goes on unless you work there and see it first hand would just about make your hair stand on end the things that happen and the things that get covered up !!

Its nice to see someone proud of there finished product, Standards are set in just about every industry but when the bottom line gets in the way those standards all go out the window.
Take this 3 million dollar 63 foot Bertram that The Dealership I worked for Had my department Prep for delivery to Miami to be loaded on a ship to continue on its way to somewhere on the other side of the World.
It only made it as far as South Carolina when running approx 20 knots went down one wave and attempted to cut through the next when the bow folded up as if it was an inflatable boat low on air. The boat sank to the bottom in about 3 minutes.
There are numerous other large Bertrams that had catastrophic failures similar to this one, All from lack of training and poor work ethics that come from hiring non skilled people and not training them properly.
Bertram went out of business and has somewhat come back into business now but I am sure people wont be overly excited to buy them!


http://www.yachtforums.com/attachmen...ats-jpg.35164/http://www.yachtforums.com/attachmen...oor-jpg.35154/http://seshippingnews.typepad.com/.a...6cd01ff970c-pihttp://www.yachtforums.com/attachmen...red-jpg.35132/

A different 63 that didnt sink

http://www.yachtforums.com/attachments/bert1-jpg.28371/

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Originally Posted by 2.5-21

Its nice to see someone proud of there finished product, Standards are set in just about every industry but when the bottom line gets in the way those standards all go out the window.
Take this 3 million dollar 63 foot Bertram that The Dealership I worked for Had my department Prep for delivery to Miami to be loaded on a ship to continue on its way to somewhere on the other side of the World.
It only made it as far as South Carolina when running approx 20 knots went down one wave and attempted to cut through the next when the bow folded up as if it was an inflatable boat low on air. The boat sank to the bottom in about 3 minutes.
There are numerous other large Bertrams that had catastrophic failures similar to this one, All from lack of training and poor work ethics that come from hiring non skilled people and not training them properly.
Bertram went out of business and has somewhat come back into business now but I am sure people wont be overly excited to buy them!


http://www.yachtforums.com/attachmen...ats-jpg.35164/http://www.yachtforums.com/attachmen...oor-jpg.35154/http://seshippingnews.typepad.com/.a...6cd01ff970c-pihttp://www.yachtforums.com/attachmen...red-jpg.35132/

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Yip been and seen some of these kinds of things not to this extent but life threatening and heart breaking just the same .
During my early days working as a newbie laminator for a company that made only sail boats there were times when the odd one if two were done to survey because they were classed as world cruising and that meant the wild oceans any where in the world , we as the builders also got to spend time with some of the owners of these boats as they always had a list of extras that were to be done that wasn't covered buy survey , Always life threatening . The oceans are a proving ground for how good a job you have made and how well the boats are designed and built , the Tasman sea on the west coat between AUSTRLAIA and NEW ZEALAND is one such place and has and does claim the odd adventurous sailor and his boat . also the north of nz heading for the pacific islands . The greatest satisfaction was knowing of a family that you had helped build there boat and they sailed for a couple of years then to find them standing in the factory all smiles as they had returned to the company in nz after selling there boat some where like England of France and were back for another one . We had a reputation of quality and the owner manager of the company was a hardened sailor himself as were the guys that worked there and the fit out guys as well ,all sailors so I learned what was acceptable very quickly and how to build that wouldn't come apart of break in extreme conditions .
This type of experience is sadly missing in this mad production orientated world we live in and most people working on the factory floor have never even seen any of the boats they make out on the water , they have absolutely no boating experience what so ever . They have no idea what the boats they build are likely to face, couple to that there lack of knowledge of what they are doing added to a SHE'LL BE RIGHT attitude and you get what you get .
Bad designers and bad builders seem to be able to find each other along with stupid dangerous owners that have way to much money and very few brains out on the water and they think they are smart and nothing can happen to them !!!.

Its nice to see someone proud of there finished product, Standards are set in just about every industry but when the bottom line gets in the way those standards all go out the window!.

Sorry to say but I work with and alongside people I train and work with and I know there capabilities and they very quickly get to know my standard that I expect form everyone . I check and recheck everyone's work all the time and team leaders have got to be hard task masters or they find themselves walking never to come back . When I employ some one its a very short interview and then put on some overall and lets go do some work together ,I will know in just a few minutes if the guy is and or will be any good .
There are so many bad team leaders and foremen that are greasers and know it all's but in reality don't know a thing they are like dogs , do as they told and make a lots of noise !

Do you work for a manufacturer?

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Originally Posted by 2.5-21

Do you work for a manufacturer?

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No not right at this present moment I am not working !! but waiting for a brand new factory to be finished building so can start work making small aircraft along with boats and sports cars !! everything will be composites totally !!
But it doesn't matter who you are work for or what you are doing there is only one standard to work to and that's better than all and any survey standards any where . A survey standard is a MINIMUM standard of skills and workmanship and general basic composite procedure's and if any laminator has any problems meeting any of those standards then they need a good swift kick because they cant do there jobs properly . Doing the best job to the best standards is where all companies should be at all the time any way because its in there own best interests .

Where are you located? Here Boat manufacturers go by a Standard called ABYC (American boat and yacht council) originally put together by a small group of guys that decided the marine industry needed a minimum acceptance for every aspect of manufacturing.
Building hulls Wiring etc.

Tunnels - - - I love reading all your posts... They really pick the brain. I think it's hard to get any true opinions out of the fiberglassing world. I think it's mostly due to tribal knowledge and individual trade secrets for the most part. But I agree, there should be industry minimum standards for production work... Anything the coastguard want's to put a plate on should have a standard...

Now to stretch the minimum standards even further, I'll reveal my core trade = Metal Fabrication. Nuclear Submarine fabrication.
I'm certified through the American Welding Society as a Certified Welding Supervisor. Just as glass work has different processes, materials, layups, etc... so does welding. Robotic, Tig, Mig (lame-mans terms). I wont get into all the details.
Now, the AWS has certain minimum standards established for their own nationally recognized welding procedures. All this is publically available literature. However, during the signing and negotiating of contracts, minimum standards are discussed and agreed upon by most ships... whether it be their own established procedures, or some other form... They're not always done per the guidelines set forth by the AWS. Again, that's by individual contract. SO... the Coast Guard vessels, Nuclear submarines, and barges going up and down the Mississippi River may be built to these minimum standards... but the oil tanker contracted through Dubai may only want "X" standards which could be less than the nationally recognized procedures.

My cliff notes are this... Though you can create nationally recognized procedures in 1 country... they won't necessarily carry over to another country. (look at safety features in cars). And even If you do create minimum standards for 1 country, It won't necessarily carry over and be applicable to all contracts / production lines / models / vessels. Each company can negotiante and choose what minimum standards to go by... if at all. Some contractor may agree for a manufacturing company to be self-governing in their own inspections and procedures.

Now... Recognized across the world is what.... The metric system... Calculus... That the world is round... Sheet music... afterall, an Australian, American, Korean, and Russian can all read the same exact sheet of music because it's the world-standard... It would be an awfully big mountain to climb to establish minimum standards for a practice of glass-work with so many variables. .

Just my $.02 !

I am so pleased that people from other trades are hear as well . Building to a standard is just the beginning and like has been said having personal certificates of skills and workmanship is a huge step further !. The composite industry in general is backward and even prehistoric . everyone has there own ideas , some good but mostly bad ! So newbies coming into the industry just keep learning from people they work with .Thats one of the reasons I used to change jobs so regularly when I was a newbie . I wanted to learn so had to shift a lot !!. In more recent times ive been doing Quality control work , this is almost degrading as to me its completely up to everyone to do the best job they can or know how to ! I really enjoy training Female workers as females see thing much more different to males and are taught to be meticulous from early child hood so the rest is easy ! You should see the look on males faces when they discover there leading hand is a female !some cant accept it at all so I move them on ,harmony and people working together is really important and having females amongst the staff can change peoples attitude's for the better . I know what each person on my staff can do because I work with and alongside each and every one of then . Even as a factory manager I made it a point of being on the floor two full days of every week mucking in with everyone else , doing what they did and seeing what actually goes on all the time and knowing the state of the tools and equipment that gets used each and every day . So I was able to keep things running and never had to want for anything .

I have seen that picture of the boat going through the water with the outside skins flapping in the breeze a few times over the years , But have seen similar pictures more recently that are similar things happening to smaller offshore powerboats almost for the same reasons as this .
But have a look closely and see that's about the width of one strips of glass off the roll ! So The second layers of glass have delaminated off the core so just very quickly this to me is the way it was constructed ( glass laid athwart ships and this is very common for big boats ) then its the people laying that glass !! The glass has possibly never wet out properly and to ADD they were possibly using a chopper gun !!MAYBE !Not only to spray csm glass but to wet out with as well . Any gun operator is useless unless he to hard rolls out his own work , then he is able to determine if the glass has enough resin on it or not !! .
This is the part that gets Chopper guns a bad name BUT REMEMBER the gun is only doing what it is doing because of the person holding the gun !!, so you can hold the gun operator 110% responsible for what you are seeing in that photo ! Comes back squarely to POORWORKMANSHIP and not only from the gun operator but the other team members as well not paying close enough attention to what they are going !!Taking all this a stage further No scales used on the gun and no one is checking or recording how much resin or glass is actually going onto that job and takes me back further for boats being built to survey standards !
So even with the core showing and still sitting in place the inner skins are keeping the water out and the boat afloat .
If you were the owner of the company what would your reactions be and what actions would you take about resolving this kind of situation ??
What level of management does this shear lack of incompetence does this start at how far up the ladder should you go ??

This is a reason I started COMPOSITE FORENSICS !! no one is immune at any level including management !!

Its also the reason I state that 90% of composite failures of bad workmanship and the other 10% is bad choice of materials.
Regrettable as time goes by the ratios are changing and getting worse I feel !

Please don't think for one moment resin infusion is immune from this list either because its not . It has its share of problems as well just people don't want to let it be known ! Infusion is a way of being able to hide and cover up so horrible ways of laying glass in the name of perfection HO HO !. Its made bad laminators into even worse glass layers because they are not laminating at all !!. I was disgusted at the last company I worked at ! The company gave these boats a 5 YEAR guarantee for the hulls !!,I closed my eyes and walked away shaking my head when I saw what they were doing .
I have noticed that in the past 10 years more and more companies are reverting back to good old hand lay !
I have asked Professional boat builder magazine to research and later publish an article of best methods of building glass boats .