New Thread on Splashing Boats

[PaulO]

Okay, the BK/Liberator thing (sounds like some new less filling burger at the King) got a little heated and I am not wanting to fan the flames but, I really wanted to get some opinions in the hope of understanding the situation with copying boat designs.

Seems to me that everyone would object to the unauthorized copying of a hull/boat design that someone put all sorts of R&D into but, is this realistic? Aren't there certain things that are difficult if not impossible to quantify? Where should the line be drawn and how could you enforce it? There is certainly a point that can be made that building quality boats is more than design work. Is there no merit in someone building a better boat on an exisiting design? Luiqi-fly made the point that if there was a great hull design that was poorly executed so that no one wanted it, wouldn't it benefit the sport if someone else took that design and built it right? Also, what is an original design? I don't think there is one. There was talk about one of the 'streams being drawn from a blank page. Was the designer possesed of a blank mind too or had he seen other things in others designs that he thought might work. If you think about it, every boat with a pointy bow is a copy of the real original!
PaulO

[Techno]

Just as a dividing line I think when you take a boat and build a mold off it, then its pretty clear cut cheating.

I was surprised to find out that the STV molds used inserts to modify the hull. A cheap way to modify without building a costly plug/mold.

To build a hull you have alot of different choices to make, length width, depth. They seem obvious but how wide is the pad, any lifting strakes-where. Any spray rails.
Then there is how heavy is it. Did you use a form that supports strength or does it need to be added in with more material.
What is the material its built from and is it strong inough to mount a 1,000 hp on the transom.

Everthing that is designed has a form to follow, its what you do with it that matters. Architecture, Lingerae, pop bottles whatever.
A volkswagon and porsche have almost the same everything but are different.

[BK]

Well, I would like to make it clear that the LIB/MIRAGE thing was not about splashing.

It was about claiming to have some "Original Mirage" molds, and I wanted to know if they were OUR stolen molds...

And Friday we called Liberator, and David Adams said they were brought there by his employee -- the same guy who was paid to destroy our molds.


Now about SPLASHING, let's think about this:

What if someone popped a mold off of Ken Warby's newest world record boat, and it got into the hands of Russ Wickes?
Is that fair? Would you say it is OK since Russ now has a chance to improve the design?

[laser]

I would be embarassed to own a splashed hull.

Not only is splashing wrong its unlawful. The people that say different have obviously never built anything original and tried to market it.

To say that it doesn't hurt the industry is just plain ignorant.

[LaveyT]

He wont even pay for the pics I got of Kens boat under construction,Or the sketches for Kens rudder and steering parts!:p

[Ken Warby]

What are you doing to me ?????

I paid you to destroy that stuff.

Geez, how many copys are going to be built now??

:confused: :confused: :eek: :eek: :rolleyes: :D ;)

[BoatGoFaster]

This is long but I think interesting.


As far as Federal law -- hull splashing applies to
original vessel (boat) hulls made public after October 28, 1998 provided that they are properly registered. The first article that I posted below sums it up rather nicely.


The next article second post is congressional testimony by the Bayliner president . I know, Insert your bayliner joke here, but even though you and I wont touch them they are a boat company with a large place in the marketplace. His comments are pretty interesting.

And yes, to the best of my beleif, my boat a Stallion 6.2 metor offshore, circa 1986, made down in orlando is a splash from the orginal? Challenger 21 . I beleive the older 21 superboats have the same lineage. There is an article in Bass and Walleye boats this past October that lays out this history.

Get a cup of coffee or a beer and read.


*****************************************************
Text below is "splashed" from http://www.merchant-gould.com/publications/tmnews/splash.htm
*****************************************************

"Splashers" Beware: New Boat Hulls Can Now Be Protected
by John L. Beard

In October of 1998, as part of an amendment to the Copyright Act, the "Vessel Hull Design Protection Act" was enacted into law.

Prior to this law, the U.S. Supreme Court, in a case known as Bonito Boats, had barred states from enforcing "anti-splashing" laws, which prevented the practice of making a direct copy of a boat hull. The Court held that state anti-splashing laws were in conflict with the federal policy of not protecting ideas which did not merit patent protection.

In a nutshell, the new Act is an "Anti-Splashing" Law designed to reverse the Bonito Boats decision. The law contains design notice and remedy provisions that encourage prompt registration in the U. S. Copyright Office of original hull designs. The likely government application filing fee will be $70.00 per design.

The new Act protects original vessel (boat) hulls made public after October 28, 1998, and makes unlawful as an infringement the "splashing" or copying of protected vessel hull designs. The plug, mold, and corresponding vessel hull (which is defined as the frame or body of a vessel including the deck, but not the rigging) is protected, provided it is an "original" design which was not copied from another source and provided the design varies from prior similar designs in a way that it is more than merely trivial.

Under the Act, in order to prevent an "innocent infringement claim," a design notice should be prominently applied to any eligible boat hull first made public after October 28, 1998. An example of an acceptable notice is " 1999 ABC Company." Also, you must apply for protection of the new design within one year of publication

John Beard is Chair of the Trademark Practice Section. His practice encompasses trademark, computer law and copyright protection, with an emphasis on multimedia and trademark law, licensing and litigation. John can be reached at 612.371.5236.

[BoatGoFaster]

*************************************************

http://www.house.gov/judiciary/41115.htm



THE HONORABLE HOWARD COBLE, CHAIRMAN
HOUSE JUDICIARY SUBCOMMITTEE ON COURTS
AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
ON
PROPOSED LEGISLATION ON THE PRACTICE OF HULL SPLASHING
October 23, 1997



BY
Mr. DONALD CRAMER, BAYLINER BOATS





Good morning. My name is Don Cramer. I work for the Bayliner Marine Corporation of Arlington, WA, as its General Counsel. I've been a boater since I was a kid except for the time that I was serving in the U.S. Army in Vietnam. I'm here to talk today about the fiberglass practice of "splashing."



Bayliner designs and manufactures fiberglass pleasure boats for sale in the U.S., Canada, the European Union, Japan and many other foreign countries. We are probably the largest manufacturer of pleasure boats in the world. We make approximately 80 different models. We sell approximately 25,000 boats annually. We currently sell under the Bayliner, Maxum and Robalo brand names. These boats range from a small 13' JAZZ jet powered boat to a 57' Motoryacht. We make specialized fishing boats, highly styled cruisers and traditional styled cruisers. Our most popular line of boats is the Capri family of runabouts from 15 to 21 feet.



The term "splashing" or "splash" refers to the practice of manufacturing a mold (and subsequent boats) from a competitor's boat. This is done by simply buying a competitor's boats, removing the hardware, turning it over and using the competitor's boat as a "plug" over which a new mold is made. Once the new mold is made, you are ready to start manufacturing exact duplicates of your competitor's products.



Bayliner currently operates approximately 14 manufacturing plants in eight states: Florida, Washington, Oregon, Minnesota, Tennessee, Maryland, Georgia and Oklahoma. We tend to cluster plants such that one town may have two or even three plants. At one time we had as many as 24 manufacturing plants.



Bayliner's design, testing and proto-typing activities are centralized in Arlington, WA. We operate a 35 person Engineering Department which has a naval architect, industrial engineers, and support personnel. The Engineering Department is supported by a Testing Department with facilities at LaConner, WA, for larger boats and Lake Stevens, WA, for smaller boats. The Engineering Department is also supported by a Proto-typing Department where full scale "plugs" and molds are manufactured. We also have a welding shop to complete manufacturing of the molds. The Proto-typing Department also includes a $1,000,000 computerized three dimensional machine that allows us to manufacture full scale boat plugs by computer.



The fiberglass manufacturing process utilizes a full scale model (called a "plug") over which a fiberglass mold is manufactured. When the plug is removed, the mold is then used to manufacture new fiberglass parts that have the same identical shape as the mold. The fiberglass parts may be a hull, deck, engine hatch or other parts used in the manufacture of boats.



The design of the plug is derived from experience and testing. We have been building fiberglass boats for approximately 30 years. Our Engineering Department designs approximately 20 boats a year. These designs are tested at our two testing facilities to verify that they perform properly and meet the designers engineering criteria. These criteria include size, speed, handling and a myriad of other factors.



Bayliner currently manufactures about 80 different models in any given model year. These boats are displayed at local, national and international boat shows held in exhibition facilities throughout the U.S. and Canada and some foreign countries. The largest "trade only" boat show is the IMTEC show that occurs in Chicago in late October. IMTEC has virtually every fiberglass boat manufacturer whose products are sold in the U.S. and Canada. It occurs about one month after boat manufacturers introduce their new models for the model year. We also exhibit our boats at major boat shows in New York, Toronto, Miami and Los Angeles. Smaller regional and local boat shows also include our boats.



Once we begin selling our boats, we know that our competitors inspect our products. We inspect their products. All of us are constantly trying to generate new and better designs to fit the preferences of the boat buying public. Some unscrupulous competitors actually buy our boats from retailers. These competitors take our boat back to their factory for the sole purpose of making a "splash" and, ultimately, exact copies of our boat. Our most popular boat, the Capri, is routinely copied.



The cost of copying a Capri by the direct molding technique, i.e. "splashing," is very inexpensive. It costs maybe $9,000 to buy the boat. Transportation back to their factory may cost a couple of hundred dollars. It may cost $2-3,000 to make the new mold. For less than $13,000, a competitor can begin production of a design that cost Bayliner twelve months of design effort and $200,000 in direct engineering costs and $100,000 for tooling costs. If someone splashes this boat, it can be splashed in two weeks for $13,000 and ready for the market. Splashing allows the competitor to take advantage of Bayliner's marketing expertise, design excellence, test protocol and manufacturing quality. The competitor bypasses all of these steps to come out with a boat that is exactly the same as or only minimally different than a Bayliner. So long as the competitor does not use the registered trademark "Bayliner" on the boat, the competitor can sell it lawfully at any boat show or retail boat store location anyplace in the U.S.



The "splashing" of Bayliner boats and those of competitors is commonly known in our industry. It is perfectly legal. We mentioned earlier that we exhibit along with virtually every other boating manufacturer at the IMTEC boat show in Chicago, IL. The "splashing" of boats is so common at this show that Bayliner employees occasionally conduct a raffle. Everyone chips in a dollar into the "pot." We then go around the IMTEC show and literally count the number of Bayliner Capri copies at the show. One year the winner counted 28 copies of our Bayliner Capri!



We are constantly changing our boat designs. One reason for this is to frustrate the ability of competitors to "splash" our boats. We hope that our competitors that "splash" our products are always behind us in styling. The problem with this strategy is that extremely successful boats have longer product life. This means that a "splasher" that chooses a successful boat to copy can anticipate selling his copy of our boat for several years. While we incur large research and development ("R&D") costs, the copier incurs almost nothing. While we have to amortize our R&D costs, the copier is able to generate substantial profits. As a percentage of the sale price, the copier makes a lot more money per boat copy than the original manufacturer. Obviously, our costs to come up with a new design vary from boat to boat, size to size. A runabout may cost $300,000 but be made at the rate of 3500 units per year. Larger boats have substantially different costs. We may spend $450,000 for a production run anticipated to be no more than 50 units per year. The copier's only cost is the cost of the boat, transportation and the cost of the mold. When these costs are paid, the rest is gross profit.

[BoatGoFaster]

We have never been able to come up with a dollar amount or a unit count of the number of boats that we don't build as a result of "splashing." We estimate that the number of Bayliner boats not bought by consumers every year due to "splashing" may be 2-3,000 units. We have now closed and sold off or are selling off the three plants that we had in North Carolina at Edenton, Shelby and New Bern. We could have kept our Shelby, NC, plant in operation ( where we had a minimum of 150 employees) if we had only a fraction of these units



I mentioned earlier how we conduct a raffle at the IMTEC show for the counting of copies being displayed at the show. Detection of these copies is ridiculously simple. The easiest way for a knowledgeable boater is just to visually compare the Bayliner to the copied boat. If we had any serious questions, we could always take some measurements, but this is rarely necessary. The best way to explain the visual method is to draw an analogy to the fiberglass Corvette automobile. When you see a Corvette on the highway, you know it is a Corvette long before you see the label. Your eye instantly recognizes a Corvette. A knowledgeable boater can also recognize a Bayliner, a Sea Ray or most other popular brands. If we took measurements, we would select 15-20 points. If the dimensions are identical, it's a "splash."



We have no objection if competitors visually inspect and/or take measurements of our boats. This is perfectly acceptable to us. We believe, however, that duplicating by the direct molding process is simply not acceptable.



The result of all of this "splashing" in the fiberglass boat industry is that there are very few manufacturers that actually design their own product. The economics are such that it is much cheaper and faster to copy someone else's product. The copying manufacturer does no testing and, as a result, has no idea what the boat may do. The copying manufacturer assumes that the boat he has copied has no unusual features merely because someone else is building it. This may be a serious safety issue if the copying manufacturer doesn't understand the limitations of the boat, i.e., the original manufacturer may only sell the boat with an 85 horsepower engine for safety reasons while the copier may sell the boat with a 125 horsepower engine.



Prior to the U.S. Supreme Court decision in Bonito vs. Thunder Craft Boats, Inc., 489 U.S. 141 (1989), Bayliner tried to limit the number of competitors selling splashes. We used to write letters threatening litigation. I remember writing one letter to a boat manufacturer that was making a copy of one of our boats. I vividly recall the manufacturer telling me that he hadn't made the "splash." He told me that he had merely bought the "splashed" mold from someone else that had made the mold originally.



We have filed two lawsuits in the past involving copied boats. One lawsuit was filed under the Florida "Anti-Splashing" Statute before it was invalidated by the U.S. Supreme Court in the Bonito vs. Thunder Craft Boats, Inc. case. The other involved the laws of a foreign jurisdiction. We had first heard about a 24' boat that had been "splashed" from a Bayliner dealer that was then exhibiting boats at a boat show in Arlington Park Raceway in northern Illinois. I personally flew to that show and inspected the boat. I was amazed to see that the copier had actually used Bayliner manufactured components in the construction of the "splash," i.e. the water tank in the bow of the "splash" had our name and logo. We suspected that this boat was going to be exhibited at an upcoming boat show in Miami, FL, where state law prohibited copying by the direct molding process.



Bayliner promptly retained Miami, FL, counsel and prepared to litigate over the copy. When the "splash" was moved into the boat show, we filed a lawsuit and immediately sought a temporary restraining order for the covering of the "splash" during the show. The trial judge denied our motion and allowed the competitor to exhibit the "splash" saying that we should not require the covering of the boat at the show because it would be a hardship on the copying boat company and its dealer.



We proceeded with the litigation including depositions of the competitor. We were amazed to learn that the competitor had absolutely no drawings, designs, or other paperwork to support the construction of the 24' "splash." They didn't even know how thick the hull needed to be for safety purposes. Unfortunately, the U.S. Supreme Court rendered the Bonito decision just before our trial. This ended the litigation with us having spent thousands of dollars in litigation costs all of which had to be written off.



The second lawsuit that we filed was in Toronto, Canada, against a Quebec company that sold its boats in eastern Canada and the northeastern part of the U.S. This company had "splashed" two of our boats. A 16' runabout that was virtually identical to our 1650 Capri. They had also "splashed" a 23' cabin cruiser which they had lengthened approximately 6". We won in the trial court on a novel theory of a three-dimensional copyright. This victory was reversed by the Appellate Division of the Federal Court of Canada and the Supreme Court of Canada refused to hear the case so we ended up being unable to stop the "splashing." The copied boats were sold in the U.S. for several years before the company finally went bankrupt. This defendant was the second largest fiberglass boat builder in Canada and could very easily have manufactured its own designs. They copied us because they knew our boats achieved a certain level of commercial success and they did not want to run the risk of creating their own design which might not be so successful. They chose "splashing" as the best way to get into the market.



It is sometimes said that "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." I can assure you that we in the fiberglass boat business do not share those feelings. We believe that "splashing" is a practice that should be stopped for both moral and safety reasons. I once received a call from a defense lawyer whose client was being sued. The defense lawyer told me that his client had manufactured the boat involved in the lawsuit but that it was a "splash" of a Bayliner. The defense lawyer wanted me to assist him in defending the lawsuit because he said that Bayliner had some interest in defending the integrity of its design. We politely declined his invitation.



There has been a lot of publicity lately about cloning of plants and even sheep. The fiberglass boat industry has been plagued with the cloning of boats for years. We don't like it and believe that it should be prohibited. The U.S. Supreme Court in the Bonito vs. Thunder Craft Boats, Inc. case ruled that the States could not enact such legislation under our federal form of government because that power was reserved to Congress. We would like to encourage you to enact legislation that would restore morality and safety to the fiberglass boat industry.



This concludes my remarks. I'd be happy to answer any questions that you might have regarding the fiberglass boat industry, Bayliner or my testimony here today.
Judiciary Homepage

[captcarb]

There have been product liability lawsuits filed against builders of homebuilt airplanes that were sold and crashed. Some of them were filed by the families of the buyer after his death.

If you build a boat you are the manufacturer.

CC

[MirageBts]

Is it wrong, yes it is. As for original, I believe just about everything has been done or thought about. What makes a boat design an original is the culmination of ideas and how they are used.

You mentioned Liqi-fly and what if there were an original design that was poorly executed or built? Well I'm not old as dirt nor do I know everything but I am trying to remember any case were this may apply. I don't think there is a case where that has occured. Usually, the splashed boat is not as well built and the builder of it thought it would be an easy way to get in the business and make alot of money. The fact is that most people who saplash are not succesful and usually don't build a very quality boat.

The builder who creates an original design usually put a lot of effort into the design and manufacturing of that design. They are usually driven by the challenge for efficiency rather than money. I know that sounds STUPID but I am living proof. Go ask Darris/Allison Boats, Mike/Mirage Boats, Wally/STV-Triad Boats. There is not alot of money to be made building boats (especially 22' and under) in limited quantities, like the types of boats most of us like. There are many hidden cost in boat manufacturing, thats for another discussion.

Sincerely,

Brad Collins

[B.Leonard]

Now I know why Bayliners were so chinsy a few years back. They were trying to save money to pay all their laywers! :D

You have to have copyright laws. That is basically what laws against splashing are. An absolute "splash" of another hull is really bad as those articles above show. Those laws should be strongly enforced.

As far as "every boat with a pointy bow" being similar. Nonsense. Their is something known as the "General Equity" of the law. It means the general essense of what the particular law is trying to enforce. The Judge has to weigh what the General Equity of the law in question is and basically make a "judgement call".

Bayliner should change their name. They're probably good boats now, but what an incredible stigma they have in the market as a cheap boat.

-BL

[BK]

ADD: A splash is nearly always a copy of an existing boat that is extremely popular - usually the originating company's "Top Seller".

This way, the splashing companies never have the disappointment and costs that are incurred when indroducing an "All New" idea that never catches on.

[B.Leonard]

What does a manufacturer have to file or apply for to claim that their hull design was first? So there isn't a who splashed who argument?

-BL

[BK]

Before 1998, you didn't have to register, but to win a case you did have to provide pictures of the plug building process, blueprints, photos, etc, any items that would prove your case in court. But the court cases were lengthy and costly, and there were no clear-cut rules that judges could use to rule by, leaving them confused. Often this ended in a stale-mate, and large losses to both parties. Companies that don't fall under the new '98 Law, can still attempt to sue under this old procedure, but because of the legal costs involved and uncertain outcome, most don't.

For designs introduced after 1998, hopefully all new designers will be registering their new designs with the Copyright office (most likely they'll do this before they even begin production), using a simple 2 page report + pictures and $75 fee, plugs and/or blue prints. If they have the registration, and after the case is won, any legal fees may be part of the award to the winner, along with up to $50,000. This includes destruction of all the copied molds & boats too.

To prevent any attempts at registering someone else's design, there are stiff Federal penalties for fraud.

In my opinion, I think, deep down, most manufacturers know whether or not they can really claim a specific design is their own creation, so I feel none will tempt this new law.

[BarryStrawn]

If anyone is attending a boat show it might be interesting to see how many or which brand hulls are displaying the copyright notice. Why would anyone not protect their designs unless the design heritage was questionable?

One aspect often left out of the copyright discussion is that protection expires after 10 years. The design may be altered and re-registered as a revision but the old design is unprotected. Just a layman's opinion but I believe it is legal to splash a 10 year old hull. Better check with a good copyright attorney first.

[BK]

I think Barry is correct. Except that the 10-year protection applies only to the boats since this registration process was enacted.

Also - at the boat shows, if a particular model has been available for sale longer than two years, then the company is not going to be able to register it anyway - even if it is their actual design.

But it will be fun to see who actually is registering these designs for 2002.

I read the story about HTM, who do have thier designs registered, and they successfully had a Havasu splash group shut down and their splashed HTM boats and molds were bulldozed. They certainly got some loud cheers from the marine community for that achievement.

Here are some others who have registered: At the shows, look at these boats, and see if you can find the sticker: OMC-Four Winns, Lowe and Grady White

So now I have to ask, what was all the stink about in the first place?

BK asking if those were the "stolen" Mirage molds..... that's just dirty pool making those type of comments when you have known for 4 years EXACTLY where the molds in question came from.

That's nice that BK and Brad both want to come out and state their opinion that the original designer builds a higher quality boat than anyone else could, what does that say about Mirage boats being built now?

If the quality of Mirage boats is superior, why is there an issue at all?

Liberator has built very few of these boats, most were ordered.

Plans for any future 18ft boats will be on an order only basis.

Now we are at the point where any future derogatory comments about Liberator boats will be considered a personal attack on me and my business.
I will view those comments as an attempt to take food off my table and will use every available resource I have to battle back.

This IS about my livelyhood and well as that of other hardworking honest people including Dave Adams, Wildman.

I encourage you to just let it go.

We all know how much I hate to be involved in any disagreements. ;)

Nothing was stolen, nothing was splashed, everything took place with the full knowledge of both BK and Brad.

[BK]

*******Nothing was stolen, nothing was splashed, everything took place with the full knowledge of both BK and Brad.**********


Absolutely false. We 'suspected', but had no proof, until now.

You said drop it, so why are you wanting to press on with this?


To make this thread go away?

I continue to get calls saying this discussion continues, then I read about your question regarding "stolen molds".

You have known the origin and how it came about for at least 2 years.

I do not understand what you hope to accomplish with your negative input here.

I am just trying to make a living and your comments effect that, did I do anything to effect your income?

Still to this day, when ever I meet another boater that owns a Collins Mirage, I hear about the character and integrity of Brad.

I understand he not only talks the talk but he has an impeccable reputation for his dedication to his customers, they speak of him like family. I have the utmost respect for they way he has conducted his business.

Mirage Boats are a beautiful, well crafted, Liberator and myself wish them the very best of success, period.

My only concern is comments that have negative impact on my business and that of others whom have done nothing wrong.

[BK]

Barney --

We spoke to Dave at LIberator on Friday, and for the first time he admitted these came from our ex-employee. We had heard rumors, but rumors are just rumors.

But we also know about the 'other' 18' Mirage lookalike boats he has for sale, and we really don't care what he does with them. Thats between him and Mullins.

We only are concerned with the culled "MIRAGE MOLDS", and his dealers using the name "MIRAGE" to sell them. That's all I've ever been concerned with. He told us he'd have his dealers stop using the "MIRAGE" name. Fine with us. I never even said anything about 'splashes'.

We don't want anything to do with those old molds, we dont want any tie to liability. We know what they are, and we didn't sell them because they have problems, and they need to go where they were sent in the first place -- to the dump. Why would Dave want to use these anyway? He's already got another 18' hull mold that I'm sure is 100 times better.

I'm not trying to 'hurt' you in anyway... I doubt if you even are ordering one, as David says he only built 3 out of these molds, and those sat in his shop for a long time.

I thought this whole thing was settled. If no more boats are built from these culled MIRAGE molds, then your business should be just fine.

Yes, my husband loved doing what he did - and enjoyed the satisfaction of being surrounded by happy customers. Someday he'd like to do this again, but financially, small boat high--perf boat building is a real challenge. We dabbled in OPC racing boats and hardly made a dime. Most people only do it for a short while.

But someday, maybe we will. :) Only bigger.

The use of the Mirage name was never intended. We are making every attempt to ensure it never happens again.

Dave Adams builds one of the highest quality boat available on the market today. He has been building boats for over 25 years, he would NEVER sell a boat with dangerous flaws in it's construction.

If there was ever a mold problem, Dave Adams has enough experience that he would fix any problems.


When comments wrongfully associate Liberator with wrong doing, it does effect my business. Lets all play nice please. :)

You are very correct, I will not order any of those boats.

[BK]

Barney....

Is that better?


BK

I'm just sorry, but I'm also happy for you, that you and Brad met and married before we ever met! :)

You gotta know, I love you. :) :) You don't have to say it back, I know too.

Thanks :)

[Rusrog]

If Liberator is only making a few boats, and only making them on an order basis, does that make it right? HELL NO! I don't get that statement Barney....
You say it affects your ability to make a living but what do you think Liberator is doing to the REAL MIRAGE BOAT CO.???? Liberator is making a living off of molds that were obtained through suspect (at best) channels....
What do you think Mike Mullins thinks of that? It is OK for you to take food off of his table? He actually paid Brad for, not only the Mirage molds, but the rights to build Mirage boats. I guarantee you that Dave knew something was amiss when he took possession of those molds and if he didn't he damn sure should have...
You can sell what you want and that's your business...
But don't act like you are the victim here...
I mean damn... You should have looked into this and you had to expect some problems when doing business this way....
I am going to start building Ellison Boats. They are a fast vee bottom and they look just like an Allison but they have different decals. You want to be a dealer? I'll see them cheap! Just don't tell Allison I been digging around in their dumpster OK.....
Does that sound legal to you? How about ethical? I think it sounds like either one....

Russ
Ft Worth TX.

[Liqui-Fly]

You make it sound like you know the whole story. Doesn't sound like anything but a buch of hush hush behind closed doors BS to me. Maybe they all have something they chose to hide; freaking phone calls and what not...whatever. That's why we as consumers should learn what a good quality boat is and forget the rest of the BS. And all this talk about originals being better is the most retarded crap I've ever heard in my life. Based on what...how could someone make such a statement.
David

I did consider potential problems regarding those 18 ft boats, that is also why I contacted BK and Brad PRIOR to my joining Liberator.

I also know if we keep communication open, we can settle this all quite easily.

It's the accusations about specific knowledge, whether it is right or wrong, demands about regargding what can and can't be done that continues to fuel this fire.

I know I don't like people telling me what is right or wrong based on their personal feelings.... most likely that will produce the opposite effect.

I am very open to sincere dialog about how we can work things out, I am also in a postion where that type of construtive conversation could bring all this to resolve.

I have made attempts to address this personally with BK and Brad, they expressed interest but they are not in a position to to make agreements for Mirage.

Mr. Mullins has never returned one of my emails.

Trash Can Ellisons? :) Well thank you for the offer, it's true I'm very good at what I do but I will have to pass. :p

I do not know of dumpster searching as an effective R&D method.

It is also true, I'm not a very good victim.
I do not believe it to be true.

I'm also at a loss as to what you hope to accomplish with your comments.

For what purpose would you make guarentees about what somebody may or may not have known?

Ethics? That will always remain an individual choice, we each have our own and attempting to see others through our own moral or ethical glasses will only disappoint.

[MirageBts]

Crap, You must have CRAP FOR BRAINS LIQUI-FLY. I don't know you personally, yet. I get the notion that you don't know much about boats or the past of our sport. Ask Raceman or somone else who has been around hi-perf boats, a about originals verses copies. See what they say. Hell, call Fred Hauenstein at Mercury Hi-Perf. in Wisconson.

BOY, I can argue with you for a long time but I don't see much point in it. You obviously don't want to learn.

Brad Collins

[JWS]

so whats up with the liberator 21? splahed hull or not? if so, whos original hull? just curios

[Liqui-Fly]

But then again this isn't what anyone is talking about. If you would like to teach me about boats I'd love to learn. You'd be suprised at my capacity. As far as originals being absolutely better than copies...I just don't understand the logic. It seems that is based on feeling not fact. I mean resins are better now as well as cloth and hybrids the list goes on and on. New techniques ect. As a consumer I want the best value for my dollar; not a name. Sorry.
David

[BarryStrawn]

Hey Fly - How about some examples where the splash is a better product. And please don't mention Liberator as a splasher because we wouldn't want to take any food off Barney's table.

[Liqui-Fly]

It seems to me the arguement is that a copy can't be as good as an original. That just doesn't make any since. Well I think the Action is a pretty damn fine example of a Hydrostream splash. It rejuvenated a great Hydrostream hull but builds them with better coring and materials. A little bump up in lenght ect. It also looks like Lightning is now building the 21ft Skater which Skater stopped building. Is the boat better I have no idea but I know there were problems with the 21's...it would be interesting to see if Lightning beefed up the transom ect. Now there are many different Superboat, Velocity, Shadow variations that I think are based pretty much on the same boat. All are very good but offer little differences that a buyer may want but a producer couldn't provide. Is this what you're asking?
David

[MadMat]

BK, I'd like to publicly apologise for questioning you. :(

[BK]

Wow! :)

Thank you MadMat

That's HIGH class.


And your apology is most graciously accepted.



BK

[MirageBts]

Liqui-Fly, maybe that GREY MATTER in your head isn't CRAP, sorry. I think you are missing my point. What I am saying is that most companies that splash a boat don't do a very good job. From the time they build the mold to the finished product they have built CRAP. Most companies that splash boats have very poor quality standards - not all.

Brad Collins

[Liqui-Fly]

My Dad told me I had **** for brains most of my life. I think the underlying issue in all of this is we don't understand all the work that goes into making a race boat. Maybe if you told us a little about how you got started and how long it took to roll something out we would have more of an appreciation for the effort. Tell us about prototypes and mods made to fix handling problems ect and how you knew when it was ready to produce. Their are very few buliders that have much to say around here. I usually have the ability to see someones point of view on a topic but I am unable to on this one.
David

Maybe I can have you over for dinner sometime. :)

The more these internet boards bring us together, the more we get to know each other, the greater degree of accountablity we will have for each other.

[DRAGIN FLY]

Like Brad said most are not as nice as the originals I have seen many copy boats and yes with the new resins and cores the copys should be better but splasher's are looking for short cuts
If they don't have time,money or brains, to come up with something new what makes you think they have the time,money or brains to build a copy better then an original.
I am sure Mike Mullins builds good boats but I don't think even he can build one better than the Original becouse the time invested in R&D and the learning curve that can only come from testing making changes and testing again can't be bought with the Molds I have a 1996 1/4 Master built by Brad and it has had alot of power on it in the past. I will park it next to any new copy boat out there. My boat at 6 years old is still in show room condition.
Time will tell how will built these copys are and one thing for sure the Splashers will never have the Pride that Brad and Val have. I have built boats before and could copy anything out there
but even coping is not a get rich quick plan and if I can't even feel good about what I am building its not worth it.
Velocity Superboat WHAT ????? open your eyes
Brad, Val, Mike if there is anything I can help with call me its a shame people don't understand that you put your life in to Mirage Boats and you get upset when someone wants to use what you built to put food on there table.

[Liqui-Fly]

Your point about the original being the best (long story short) because of an experienced crew knows soooooo much more about the boat and building it is a fantastic point. That is why I don't think designers can ever be hurt by splashing. They (original) should easily be able to turn out a better product with more frequent advancements. Thus always be ahead of the competition. But there is always the possibilty that someone can do it better.
David

[TUG]

IFN YU WIND UP WIT NO FOOD ONDU TABLE GUS LET ME KNOW, I GOT A WHOLE CLOSET FULL UV WOLF BRAND CHILI " MILD, NO BEANS" TO DONATE TO DU CAUSE:D

NO REALLY THOW, I'M GLAD THIS THREAD HAS KEPT GOING BECAUSE ITS STARTING TO SHED SUM LIGHT ON THE ISSUE!
B.K. ,BRAD, I WANT TO SAY I'M SORRY TOO ! STARTING TO SEE YOUR POINT IN ALL THIS,, ALTHOUGH I STILL FEEL THE ISSUE SHOULD HAVE BEEN TAKEN UP WITH LIBERATOR "PRIVATLY" . GUS COULDNT HELP BUT TO FEEL BAD FOR WILDMAN WHO SEEMED REAL PROUD OF HIS INVESTMENT UNTIL......:(
FOR THE MOST PART I WUZ GUS POKIN FUN ATCHU, THATS GUS ME THOW, NO HARM MEANT!

I STILL THINK MY BOAT IS TO HEAVY THOW:mad:

HEY HOW BOUT DAT DU TUG HAS A SOFT SPOT:D

[DRAGIN FLY]

No builders like people splashing there hard work even if the copy is not as nice I think the real problem is if you put your hard work into making a new boat marketing it racing it to the point that most people know what it is and who built it from half way across the lake then someone else builds a boat that looks just like it and even uses your name to market it I think anyone on this board would be a little upset if this happend to them.
I think that problem was fixed and I hope I don't upset anyone with my thoughts

[BarryStrawn]

Fly,

I absolutely agree with your hypothesis - that a splasher could make a better boat if they wanted to. I just couldn't think of a single example.

Various people appear to have made what are called Action's (splashes of splashes?) and I don't know how they compare to a new Canadian XStream or California Hydrostream. Or how any of these would compare to a Pipkorn made boat if he were still in business and using current technology. I'm an Allisoonie so I think they all suck.:) XStreams seem to have a better reputation for quality than the old Hydrostreams. Makes your point about modern construction and materials except XStream bothered to license the design so they are not a splash.

As far as the Skater 21 goes, who knows. Douglas stopped making them some time ago so there isn't much to compare with. Same for the Skater 24. If you want a new little Skater, you have to buy a splash. But then everyone has copied Skater and Peter Hledin just keeps moving ahead to new and improved designs. Good way to do business. Perhaps the Victory hulls prove your point, rumor is they are Skater splashes and I'm certain their quality is second to none. The exception to the rule I suppose.

Barney - I'm 3,000 miles from Havasu so don't expect me for dinner - Your not Hanibal Barney are you?

[BK]

LF,

We probably could continue to explain til we are blue, how many months it takes to build and test a design before you even get the the part where you start to mold it, but since it's coming from us, you'll probably still not believe.

I think Jay Smith still reads these boards, and since he was there with us during the various stages of the prototype Quartermaster, maybe he can shed some light on the man-hours and costs involved - months of testing and retooling and testing and retooling and testing some more.

He was there when we searched through book stores, seeing if we could incorporate ideas from the auto-racing industry. Flipping thru pages was the very first step -- next was building a prototype with our rough drawings and ideas, in which we hired a famous professional prototype builder to take our ideas and convert them into plywood. After that was the testing phase, in which we contracted Jay Smith and his motors to drive up to North Texas to test with us-- and even letting Jay take it to Houston for further tests -- and this followed bringing it back to the shop for further hull changes many, many times. The entire process lasted more than a year, and we actually made two sets of molds before we were completely satisfied. It was a very tedious and costly process. Jay can tell you.

Jay -- if you are listening, want to add anything?

PS DraginFly and others: thank you all for the very nice words.
And Tug, apology accepted.

[Jay Smith]

To everyone involved with this subject.
That was the hardest I ever worked in my life. Man I had blisters on top of blisters. And all the time studing those damn F-1 car books Brad made me study. The whole project I know was over a year with literly HUNDREDS of hours in the mold stages. Then mega hours on the lake jammed in that damn hull with all the stiffners in it just big enough for me to stuff my legs in after 5 minutes my legs were asleep and when it was time to get out I had to have help. I spent many hours on airplanes flying back and forth with my life jacket and props in an overnight bag !Then the trim gauge was right in front of the steering wheel. I made passes in that thing at night running toward head lights to a truck and all I could see was the lights and Brad would flash the lights when I was getting too close to hitting the bank. I tore up props , blowed up motors, payed for kids arms to be set after being broken . Tested when we passed the bank thermometer it read 26 degrees and I had just got trough making 115 MPH passes in that wooden monster with a F-1 front nose on the boat the was duck taped on !! And leaked like a sieve. Layed in the mud scabbing lifting strakes ( 2X4's) on the bottom tring to get the thing right. I think you all get the picture I'm not going to take up any more space or time but for those who have went to the wall with these "projects" to me it is dishearting to have laid all the ground work and have someone simply find an hull and pop a mold and create a boat ! My 2 cents!!

Jay @ JSRE

[BK]

Thanks Jay.

And I nearly forgot about Jayme's broken arm when he fell from the loft while you guys plug-tweaked late at night!

So even Jayme's got somewhat of an investment in that boat ;)

[Liqui-Fly]

I think people should only make plugs now hehe. Sounds dangerous but sounds like fun. I guess I have to stop thinking about it as something I'd like to do on my weekends. It is actually work. Now do you call guys like Jay test pilots or suckers hehe. I still want to know more about the process.
I like Tug knew the impact the comments about Wildman's new boats could make and it set me off pretty hard. I will be more sympathetic to spalshing now but would appreciate explanations with 3 alarm safety alerts.
David

[BK]

About a week ago, a dealer on Offshoreonly 'for sale ads' was selling a boat he described as "MINT".

Immediately, the previous owner explained to the OSO message board that this boat was his ex-boat, and had a 12' inch crack which sunk the boat. The core was soggy, and there were problems with the transom too. He said there was no way the boat could have been repaired in two weeks, back to "MINT" condition.

By divulging the truth, yes, he most likely did make it harder for the dealer. But the consequences for not speaking up far outweigh doing the right thing.

He was giving the OSO board a "Heads-up". He had facts about the boat that needed to be shared to anyone interested in that boat. Im sure he didn't enjoy doing it, but felt obligated that everyone needed to know it was not "MINT".

About those "Mirage" molds -- well, we certainly know all about the problems with them -- and if we felt they could be repaired we could have done so -- but that's why they went to the dump. Nobody should be in possession of them, period.

I was doing the same "Heads up!". This was certainly not something I enjoyed doing either. :( I feel really badly for anyone who was innocently impacted by this unsavory situation, just like Im sure Cord is. :( But the whole story really needed to be explained, and more especially since our name was being used.

http://207.55.218.179/cgidir/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=47&t=005878

[Liqui-Fly]

I don't know what was wrong with the molds. Old or cracked or whatever means nothing. You can fix and mold just like you can fix a boat. I was more worried about a desigh issue than a broken mold. Wherther or not it is fixed properly is yet another issue but "we" don not know what was wrong with the molds.
David

[BK]

There were many things wrong with all the molds. Many were just old.
And then most of them sat in the weeds, near a creek for years. When you sit a mold in the sun and freezing rain for a number of years, things change. They don't stay true. We refused to build anymore boats from them, so it's impossible to tell specifically what further changes occured and what these might do to the final product.

But we do know they are *not* to MIRAGE specs, so they were sent off to be destroyed. That's really all that needs to be said.

[LakeTrash]

I do not know BK or Brad personally but I know several people who do and they have nothing but good things to say about them.

That said - I have to take a step back everytime I see the comment about the defective molds being sent out to be destroyed.

In my long (longer than I like to admit) history of business I have never seen nor can I imagine anybody letting a defective product out for someone else to destroy. A prime rule of business is not to let your problems get aired out in the real world. Especially if it is a safety issue. The product liability is horrendous.

It is hard to believe the people who worked so hard to create Mirage could have let this happen when two minutes with a chain saw would have solved the problem.

LT

[woodco]

That is a very good point. Never feed yur competition with easy meals..whether there safe or not.Just a bad business practice.

[BK]

That was the first time in over 10 years that we've ever been double-crossed by an employee, and he had been with us for some time. There was never any clue before hand that he'd be dishonest. And it wasn't just one mold set,...there were many truck loads -- It was a hell of a lot more than "two minutes with a chainsaw". He was paid to do the job. And now we learn he didn't.

You are correct on the LIABILITY. When we saw "MIRAGE"in the advertisement, that liablity was SLAPPED right at us ! We could not sit back, knowing what we know.

We treated all of our employees with respect, and they treated us the same. Sometimes you run into someone who will burn you, and this was one of those times.

On the otherhand, have you ever heard of a company having a $9.00 per hour worker show up with molds that they knew came from a competitor, and not even call the original company to see how he got them? Or if it was even alright to use them? And then go ahead and build boats out of them anyway?

[woodco]

Like they say " Hindsight is always 20/20 "

Ya just never know what could or will happen. It's not easy
makin decissions.

[lightningpowerboats]

This little note is for ( MR. LASER ) POPS ,SPLASHINGor what ever you want to call it,it makes money,any way you look at it,and in a lot of cases the splash as you call it can be better than the original,look at ( MIRAGE) when Brad built it,it was a GOOD boat, now look at it,in just about every ad for one for sale,any boat built in TX,is noted ,no one wants anyone to think it was built in winter haven,there built with a chopper gun,and cut up plywood for core,and it dosn't take a brain surgeon to know the final product you will get ,allso in the case of Liberator,popping the 24 SKATER,Why not ,Call Peter at Skater and ask him to build you a 21 or 24 SKATER you will most likely get laughted at he won't do it,he's way to busy building 36's 40's 46's making MONEY! Some people need to wake up,the little guys are not the only ones doing it ,I don't here any one Bitching about SEARAY,go to there R and D plant in Cocoa Fl,you might be surprised,there are Regals,Sunseekers,and a host of others,its just that they have enough money and security to keep it out of the public eye,So now that my preaching is over, If you don't have something good to say ZIP IT JOHN CHRISTENSEN OF LIGHTNING POWER BOATS AND YES WE DO POP BOATS,AND PROUD OF IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mr fun]

:( it bums me out that people don't have "integrety". i want to market "my design" but it seems the vultures are just waiting to "make a buck" with no intent to make a mark in our culture, just a buck. if someone takes the sheetmetal of a ford and puts a lambrogini suspension and power in it is not a rip off of someone elses work, yea it might be better, but go the mile and build your own initial design. auto manufacturers would have some ass over stuff like this, my thought is, if your gonna use someone elses designs they are entitled to a "royality" or change it signifigantly to as not be in question. we all can stand back and know the truth and whatever is said cannot be denied. if people can go about their lives knowing people are saying this about them and still not care, not anybody i want to be seen around.:rolleyes:

[Got to be OMC]

It is amazing that this is the first manufacturer on here to admit to the obvious. For that I have respect. I don't know about the quality but, at least the orgin is not in question. Liberator hasn't addressed this yet, maybe the 21&24 are just similar. Right! Admit it and then who cares.

I pop, I splash, I wear womens panties almost everyday.

I'm also in the market for a damaged 36 Skater if anyone sees one by the trash. :D

I used to copy off the smart kid in school too, now he's broke and I won't give him a job.

I admit it, I did it.

For the rest of you sinners and cheaters, the waiting room for hell is open......

www.************.com

[jesel]

What you need a Screwed up boat to make another SPLASH mold? Hey the bigger the boat the more money YOU make, thats what this WHOLE thing is about. right

[Rusrog]

I may be a little bit old school or I may just be slow but....
I would be embarrassed to admit that I was popping boats off of someone else's hard work. And I hardly think that admitting that you are sponging off of someone else's hard work, makes you in the least bit honorable. You are taking money out of someone's pocket who did all the work, put in the time, and made the effort to push technology and our sport forward. I WILL NEVER OWN A SPLASHED HULL. I know that doesn't mean much to the people doing it because I don't buy many boats.
Now the one question comes up in the case of the 24 Skater. I understand the Skater is too busy building big boats to mess with small ones. Has anyone considered trying to get the molds from Skater? That would be the right way to go about it. I don't know what Alex or Peter would say but at least at that time the effort would have been made to do things the right way. No mater how you look at it, splashing boats is not a good thing, and if you think that it is, you are not the kind of person I would consider doing business with.

[2Blade]

Small business and entreprenuers are the backbone of our great nation!!...they employ more people and pay more taxes. Those good schools, good roads, and our fine men and women in uniform protecting our freedom...thank small business!!! For myself, if it wasn't for the small independent real estate agent, I would be out of business. The human spirit to create, change, and expand upon those who have gone before us is what makes this country great. You guys building and selling boats...thats a big thumbs up!!! You guys getting your feathers ruffled...there is a country for you and Alec Baldwin...it is called communist China;) :eek:

[lightningpowerboats]

Im sorry that you feel the way you do,but if you were in the busness you might understand,that its just part of it,I've had 3 of my boats popped and have no problem with that,its part of this business ,and if your in it,you better understand that,if you open your eyes you can see the same thing going on in every fasit of our lifes,cars planes and everything else,people take things and improve on they every day,some do a good job some dont,I would like to know what kind of boat you have,since 90% of boats are a indirect copy of something? Im not trying to piss any one off here,just want people to see both sides of the coin. I would love to buy the 24molds fromSKATER,if you know peter give him a call ,i would like to go that way ,but if not Lightning Powerboats will be building a modified copy of a 24 SKATER OR MOTION be for the end of the year any way!Buy the way there must be alot of people out there that don't mind popps or splash'smost of my customers are repeat customers,I have one customer that has bought 9 boats from me in the last 5 years and currerntly owns 4 of them,Hope you are having a great day, Again Im John Christensen of Lightning Powerboats not afraid to let people how i feel about this subject!

[lightningpowerboats]

TO 2BLADE Its good to here something positive,Hope lifes treating you good, The best to you in your small Business too its what makes this world turn!! John at Lightning

[2Blade]

You make sense to me! Thank you!

[skatermike24]

Hey John this is Mike from Orlando, whats up, hope business is well, don't think I want to comment on whats going on, I see pro's and con's about everything as we all go through life. I see that Sarosaota is not gonna be this year, what a disappoint, we go every year,thank sucks. We're gonna do the keys this year during the 4th, anyway hope all is well. See ya at shell island!!!!!:cool:

[lightningpowerboats]

Don't make plans for the keys yet ,SBI is suppose to step in and put on the race, Im sure it will be as great as ever? John

[skatermike24]

I hope this doesn't start a war but I don't like SBI.!!!!

[lightningpowerboats]

SBI Is not my favorite either but if its the only offshore racing i get to see in sarasota I'll watch,The Keys are a good time to I lived there in marathon for the first 15 yrs of my life,Its fun to visit ,don't want to live there or finish raising my daughter there, Do you have a 24 skater ,and had a 21 skater befor? John

[skatermike24]

Thats me, I love my 24 skater!!:cool: :cool:


Do you ever see the guy that bought my 21?

[lightningpowerboats]

Yes I talk to him offten,he has a HTM with a big block now,still at disney,and aren't you a dad now? hope things are good with you and family John

[skatermike24]

Sure am, A proud one at that! He's 17 months and growing like a weed, I had a top made for the skater so he can come out with us this summer , I'm sure I'll run into at shell island!!!!




About SBI and APBA I wish they would all put their differences aside and bocome one!!!!!!:cool:

[Racemore]

:rolleyes: That will never happen,to many attitudes with assholes.

Damn shame that APBA won't be in Sarasota after all the great races.Won there with a popped Skater(a 25 Motion).Hey John,pop on!:cool:

[2Blade]

I'll tell you what you need to do...you scoop that boy up in your arms and give him the biggest hug you can. I just thought I lived life...until I had children...now I live exponentially more. I read in an obituauary one time of a 7 yr. girl who had passed away and the mother had made this statement that summed up what kids mean to me. She said, "to have a child is to have your heart walk around outside your body for the rest of your life." Boats, children, America...doesn't get any better than that!

[Greg Moss]

If you splash a boat you are stealing period! no matter how you try to justify it in your own mind it is stealing and there is nothing else you can call it. Hell forget the govermant just print you own money You arn't earning the money from the splashes. Take up bank robbery it's the same thing. I have Rolex watch that cost $6000 you can go to the flea market and buy one for less than$100 is that the same as mine No way. Splashing is a cheap imitation of the original. If you have a copy of something that was taken from some ones hard work to design I would not be proud to admit it!!! Let's see I want to make a list of all of you that splash boats that way we all know who you are and not support you but support the legal owners of a design!!!

[Sam Baker]

It's not only the design issues that are a cheap way out, but the cost of building a plug. It costs a LOT of money to start with an idea, to a drawing, to a wood model, to a plug, to a mold. It's a LOT cheaper to start with a boat and pop it. That's one of the big reasons a Lightning boat is a lot cheaper than a Skater, Motion, Spectre, or Mirage.

These people started with a blank sheet of paper and put the time, materials, and money into building something from the ground up - not waxing up your buddy's boat.

Instead of buying the 24 Skater molds or modifying a Skater or Motion, why don't you do like they do and actually start with some wood and a constructive idea. Then you can see what it's like to be a real boat manufacturer.

This whole thread is interesting. To say that it's OK to pop a boat just because we can get them cheaper this way is ludicrous. Design a boat, build a plug, build a mold. You'll get a lot of satisfaction out of that. Those who pop and splash should try rolling up their sleeves and starting from scratch just once. My bet is that they'd quit the boat building business after they see how hard the work is.

[Greg Moss]

I think it really is dishonest and stealling to make money you haven't earned. Poping or splashing a boat that some one else did all the work on is wrong no matter how they try to justify it!!

[Liqui-Fly]

Some act like building a boat is the hidden art from Atlantis. It seems like people with the strongest opinions on this know the least about business myself included. Businesses and consumers "war" against each other is what pushes innovation and good prices. How would you all like it if drug companies held exclusive rights to all their products for eternity? I know drugs aren't nearly as important as boats but if patent lasted more than 10 years prices would be astronomical all the time. Well you see after 10 years another maker gets to splash the drug and make it themselves. Mean while the facility that has a patent up in 10 years continues with research so theyt have another product that will be exclusive after the initial patent runs out. You know what...nobody cries about it. Splashing does not hurt innovative companies.....too much debt and lagging behind in tech. does.
David

[Sam Baker]

Actually patent lenghts differ. typically it's 17 years. For things such as drugs, the length is typically shorter because of the monopoly effect. If you need to cure a disease and there's only one option, the price can be rediculous.

You have to understand that even with drug companies, they don't just take the other companies drug and slap their name on it.

There is not a monopoly in the high performance boating industry like there is in the drug industy in the case of a patented drug. That's why there is regulation and a shorter patent period. To promote competition. However, there's another aspect of the Sherman Antitrust act that refers to Predatory pricing which is the unfair low pricing of a similar good to drive other people out of business. When you can produce a boat much cheaper than another company because you have essentially zero spent in R&D, you can produce an identical boat for far less than the original designer of the boat. Pricing an identical boat at 40% off is predatory.

That is my angle. Companies like Mirage, Triad, Allison and HydroStream (the most followed names on this board) need to charge a higher price for their boats because they also need to factor in the cost of new design work.

If you took 2 years of your life, hard work and dedication to bring something to life, you'd want to be compensated for it too. How would you feel if you spent 2 years building a software program and somebody else took 24 hours, broke your code, stole the program and offered the exact same program as you for 2/3 the price? If it weren't illegal, it would eventually drive the original company out of business.

I agree, Entrepreneurism IS the backbone of this country. However, keep in mind, being an entrepreneur implies that you actually start with an idea. I don't believe that Plagarism is the backbone of this country.

My background in this industry is my life. I was born into the boat building industry. My earliest days were spent at the HydroStream plant watching my dad and Howard Pipkorn cutting and sanding plugs, using everything from plaster of paris to cardboard to make mold pieces, inserts and molds themselves in order to come up with fresh designs and improvements.

[Greg Moss]

I was tring to think of a responce to david but couldn't find the way to do it like you did. I keep in touch with BK about this because I think it is wrong. She sent me this and said I could post it because she though it would bring more attacks on her for being a woman. I have a lot of respect for her and her oppinions and hate to see that she should shy away from the boards because some feel she threatens them. This is what she sent me I think it says it all. Someone earlier (ironically, I believe an employee of Liberator boats) stated he was in favor of SMALL BUSINESS ENTREPRENEURS. It's even more funny when you read the definition of Entrepreneur:


Main Entry: en·tre·pre·neur
Pronunciation: "änn-tr&-p(r)&-'n&r, -'n(y)ur
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from Old French, from entreprendre to undertake —more at ENTERPRISE
Date: 1852
: one who organizes, manages, and assumes the risks of a business or enterprise
2 : readiness to engage in daring action : INITIATIVE

Main Entry: [1]ini·tia·tive
Pronunciation: i-'ni-sh&-tiv also -shE-&-tiv
Function: adjective
Date: 1795
: of or relating to initiation : INTRODUCTORY, PRELIMINARY

Main Entry: in·tro·duc·to·ry
Pronunciation: "in-tr&-'d&k-t(&-)rE
Function: adjective
Date: 1605
: of, relating to, or being a first step that sets something going or in proper perspective

Main Entry: [1]orig·i·nal
Pronunciation: &-'rij-&-n&l, -'rij-n&l
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : archaic : the source or cause from which something arises; specifically : ORIGINATOR
2 a : that from which a copy, reproduction, or translation is made
b : a work composed firsthand,
3 : to cause or facilitate the beginning of : set going


A boat company that "SPLASHES" an item that already exists by itself as a successful product, offers the American public -- No "FIRST STEPS", Nothing "INDRODUCTORY", No "BEGINNING", No "DARING ACTION", and no "ASSUMPTION OF RISK".

They are simply PIRATING someone else's work, to make a profit for themselves.

[Raceman]

Gregg Moss, you and I might not be able to agree on Hydro Streams and drag racin' but we sure see dead eye to eye on this issue and I think I've even finally found common ground with Sam on something too.

Fly, I find it interesting that you've voiced an opinion more than once that people who find dishonesty and lack of integrity in splashing, somehow don't have any business sense. I've owned a relatively successful business for over 20 years during which time I've dabbled in additional business ventures also. I think direct spashing is theft, pure and simple. I guess I'll notify my employees, vendors, customers, and bankers that I'm not fit. The drug example you used may be quite appropriate actually, and it is something that I am directly affected by in my business. I can see a direct comparison as a matter of fact: drugs, research and development. boat designs, research and development. I'm sure that you're agreeing that drug companies must have the protection of the patents for a defined period to recover the R & D costs. Why then are boat manufactureres not entitled to the same protections? Both have substantial cash outlays in reaching a manufacturable product, and speaking in terms of the dollars involved relative to the gross revenue produced by the product, a boat manufacturers plug cost may very well match or exceed that of the drug, (percentage wise) considering that some drugs produce billions of dollars in revenue. Maybe that is the common ground that we could at least agree on, that a hull deserves protection for a given period until some of the R & D costs are amortized.

It's also interesting to me that we protect written materials more than we do actual tangilbles in our society. If you reproduce something from the day's paper, copy a book, steal someone's logo, etc, etc, there is immediate legal remedy. Apparently no one can now publish the Peanuts comics with Charles Shulz wishing the characters to die with him according to his heirs. Cartoon character designers apparently have lifetime rights to the characters. Is this somehow more important than a successful and innovative engineering design, whether it's boats or hellicopters? I'd have to say definately not. Hell, Baretta, a foreign gun company was even able to stop GM from using the name on a car after they had done so for several years, and this was JUST A NAME..............no engineering or development time involved. I can't even reproduce discontinued parts for a specific GM vehicle without written liscence without facing a lawsuit. (replacement okay, reproduction: immediate lawsuit) Coca Cola vigorously protects it's logos, formula's and even the shape of the old bottles. Try spashing a coke bottle and see how quick it lands you in federal court.

I'm of the opinion that boat manufacturers have gotten a raw deal for a very long time. Seems like there are a lot of much less significant items, both tangible and intangible with a lot more protection.

[lightningpowerboats]

Mr Baker I guess you better do some research,lets start with MOTION there 25 was popped off the 24 skater (CRIME BUSTER) with out the owners permission,it was being repaired by Jay Philline .the 35 was a pop of the 32 skater THat EDwin Sheer owned. That takes care of MOTION,Now lets move on to Spectre Same guy no changes Jay Philline 30' were parts off a 24 and 28 skater,and his new 36 is the streched and widen Version all so used a 35 motion after selling the company to Edwin Sheer,Im sure Edwind didn't give the ok!Last but not least Mirage,From what I've been told LEE built the plugs and the first molds Not Brad. Oh Im sorry you were right about SKATER Peter and his brother did build theres from scratch GET it together befor you make strong statements,on this subject I'done my homework, Again this is John from Lightning Powerboats

[Greg Moss]

I do know the mirage hulls that are the Lee's are not the same as the ones Brad built. Noah at eagle one has the lee molds they are not the same as Brads and I think Brad bought the Mirage name. Which his Dad "Lewis Collins" had something to do with the design of the Lee Mirages.So I don't think you have your facts straight there. Maybe you need to do some more home work.

[pyro]

Do you guys want another thread deleted?!?!?!?

Take the bickering to e-mail, nobody cares who Mr. Know-It-All is.

You are all gettin really stressed. Do you guys like beer?

[lightningpowerboats]

What is a TRAID If im not wrong its a pop of a ALLISON,A very good one I might ad,I'd like to see an ALLISON come out looking like that,Don't get me wrong ALLISON is a Great boat and built very good,I got a stack of paper from there attorneys saying I popped one ,sorry I'didn't pop that one,trying to stay in boats over 21' John At Lightning

[BK]

The current Mirage boats (nee Texas) were originally from the plugs built by a well-known boat designer of Lake Dallas Texas. There exists many photos of this plug in progress, which took months to build. From this original design, which was quite a costly project for Brad Collins and his company, Brad himself was able to test and tool more versions of his Mirage Jaguar over the years.

Lightningpowerboats is making assumptions, but they are false.

The OLD Lee Mirage boats, built by David Lee for Louis Collins and Invented by Louis Collins, which is the mold that I believe is now at Eagle One, is not anywhere close to the same hull that Brad Collins (Louis' son) contracted to have built. This is obvious to most people, even those with the most basic knowledge and history of this industry.

[Arizona Hotboater]

I think I might be in trouble. I got one of the Ken Warby replica miniature boats and splashed it. Sorry Ken.

No seriously, how would anyone here like it if they came up with a design for something they were going to sell, it was copied, stolen, or what ever, and someone else was using it to directly compete with your product.......and without your permission?

I dont know what the deal here is, I dont have all the facts to make such a decision. I am just stating that splashing is theft.
AZH

[lightningpowerboats]

Ok guys read what i say. I said i was told about Lee building the plug and mold. I didn't say i knew. I wont comment on anything else i don't know. The only comment that i can come up with now is that i think Brad Collins is smarter than all of us he got out of the boat building business, which i hope to when my daughter is out of college. Thanks for the intertainment. I've injoyed the chat. John from lightning Powerboats.

[Hustler]

My God is this topic still going? I think you guys need to bust out a **** load of silvers and go play in the water instead sitting in front of your computers bickering like little girls:D

Hustler

[Michael Martin]

I have been reading closely & all have very heart felt beleifs but what is the solution ?

If your going to pop it should you have permission or maybe pay a fee for using the boat to build a mold that you intend to change?


Mike

[woodco]

No matter what penalties or royalties are ascerted it's never
gonna stop.Even though I don't approve of it but we're just gonna have to deal with it. We are in the boating industry if
we where musicians that would be another story.

[mr fun]

this is the bottom line, like the bumper sticker says, "if i have to explain it, you wouldn't understand it". yea we all got kids, they grow up and you can't stop um. at 18 try to get them to listen unless their in your pocket. a 50' italia,,,, hey thats badassed, no doubt. but i'm 43, been thinkin about this since 8th grade. got told by John Crouse in his living room in 76 that a tunnel design would never make it in offshore, and here you are arguing over who stretched what mid sized hull was from what, i thought the douglas skater looked stupid, nothing like the full blown big bitches their marketing today, i designed one in 77, but since the lucky sperm club turned down my application i am still pluggin away and one day my version hopefully will be in the miami show and if it's copied, you ain't seen ****! mr fun, member in good standing G.O.B. (good ole boy club):eek: fun out.

Now we are again talking about design and design ideas, they are things that from the beginning of time have been copied, atlered, evolved.

Now here we are in Capitalist America, the self proclaimed best Country in the world filled with inhabitants that have come to believe that being the best means something.

Our entire culture is based on the basic premise that everyone gets a chance here, we will compete openly, to the victor..... the Spoils!

So you design a great boat, so what? When it is purchased to hold, not to use, when it becomes an appreciating asset collected, then the design itself truely has value.

This aint a boat design competition, perhaps you are confused.

In America, we reward the best, we praise all that is elite.

OK, so now you toiled hard and spent big $$ to design your boat and you start selling a a price you feel compensates you for ALL your labor.

Boats start selling and then one of the boys copies your boat and sells it cheaper, so what?

Cry foul? In America...... In TEXAS? :D :D

No that is how we tell manufacturers in this great nation, "Stop screwing us, we won't pay your over-inflated prices"

That's just the way it is! :p

Who cares how much work it was? Too bad.

Get smarter.

Who the hell said it has to be expensive to build a plug?

Maybe you guys just suck at building plugs?

Who said a plug is the best way to build a boat anyway?

Just get off your darn butt, work harder, work smarter, design something new if you are so damn good.

If your not, shut up, this is America and we want the best.

I wish some one would open up next door to me, sell the very same products and services, twice the advertising as far as I'm concerned.

Oh golly, now it's up to me. Do we think I'm gonna quit and cry?

Better be prepared to get better or get out.

This is the treal world, a Capitalist World.

The real deal is the human race, if you can contribute, lead for a moment, be happy you got to lead because it definately sounds like you do not like to work and leading requires it.

[Racemore]

Very well said,Coke does protect their "trademarks,formulas and bottles " etc. BUT Pepsi,RC,Check etc. make colas (V bottoms),fruit flavors (Tunnels and mod vp's) etc. but they are all drinks.(boats) The only original tunnel was the first one and if anybody thinks that the idea for a picklefork mod vp didn't come from a f1 style tunnel is ,well, fooling themselves and nobody else!;) Original my @$$ Like a bicycle with trianing wheels.:rolleyes:

[WILDMAN]

Yadda-yadda-yadda, here we go again! Give it a rest!

[mr fun]

i guess someone who bought their way into a "big time" boatbuilding biz a year and a half ago with alot a huff and puff i'll blow your house down, can cerntally show me a thing or two. the expression, "SMALL TIME BIGSHOT" comes to mind, or "flash in the pan". none of this is intended to be mean spirited, barney, i still hope we can meet oneday, and john from lightning, same goes for us. but i can't belive that you can say these things and have a straight face. think of the art world, there are originals. nuff said. i gott go to work. fun out.:o

[2Blade]

I think you may have thought that I was an employee of Liberator from my earlier comments because I am a champion of small business. I am not an employee of Liberator, but I sure would like to be!!! Instead, I am a proud owner of a 21 Liberator and previously a 17 Liberator. I am a mortgage banker...and while I spend my days getting people home loans, I gain motivation from people who have the balls to risk everything to build a boat or to buy a boat for the purposes of rigging it and selling it. I like people who dream and reach for the gifts that capitalism (if I may borrow a word form ************) invites and rewards. Anyway, 30 year mortgages rates are at 6.625% today, the prime rate is 4.75%...someone needs to buy a home or boat today.

[B.Leonard]

2Blade, wanna do a refinance? Call me 727-302-3051

Got any pics of that 21 Lib?

-BL

[2Blade]

Thanks...I'll give you a call. My 21 Liberator pics are posted on HavasuBarneys web page under reader rides, last page, under 2Blade. The boat is still at the factory. Thanks.

I think your name says allot about your intentions. :)

Thinking of the art world, it's not the subject the artist has used that created value but rather the way the ARTIST created it that brings value.

Value can only be derived from a comparison.

The value here was determined by an open market.

The idea that people want to cry foul serves no one, the notion that we alone are responsible for our outcomes and must make our own way no matter what, will serve us all.

We need to continue to work, continue to press forward, we need to be prepared to out work the other guy it that what it takes.

[Sam Baker]

I'd like to hear a response from anybody who's actually designed and built an original boat from scratch. I know when I worked with Rapid Craft on the 22' Twister, that project took well over 6 months - and that was just for a deck redesign. I take a lot of pride in the design of that boat and all I did was design the deck. We were just putting a taller deck on their existing hull.

So far, anybody I see commenting here has never built a boat from scratch and I don't think really understands what it takes to do it. If you start with an existing boat, it IS easy to build a plug. However to start with thin air and a blue print is a heck of a lot harder. If I popped a skater, an Eliminator (actually several eliminators) and a Mirage, I wouldn't complain about having to build plugs either. I'd think it was a piece of cake.

So, if anybody has built a plug from scratch, please weigh in with your feelings and please list the model and design you were responsible for.

You're more than welcome to comment, but I think this thread should be more about the realities of what it takes to do it than how it helps the boating community to have cheaper options when people copy boats.

I'll sit back down and raise my hand next time. :)

For what purpose would we want to hear about how tough it is?

[Rusrog]

Ok..here goes...
2-blade...you make no sense... YOu said..."I gain motivation from people who have the balls to risk everything to build a boat or to buy a boat for the purposes of rigging it and selling it."

What balls does it take to copy what is already known to be successful? Copy an Allison and see if it's fast. SURPRISE! It will be... Wow aren't you sharp...what balls that took...

Barney...again I quote "Who cares how much work it was? Too bad. Get smarter. Who the hell said it has to be expensive to build a plug?"
I doubt you would know anything about building a plug so how could you ever appreciate the effort and time it takes to build one. Much less design something original and cutting edge. It is very easy when someone else build the "PLUG"; in the case of Liberator the plug was built by Eliminator, Mirage, Skater etc...
Yeah... you couldn't possibly appreciate the effort that takes...

John fron Lightening...
You boats may be of the best quality in the world but if you are copying boats.... that ain't right. You may be making money, you may be even making good boats, but that don't make it right. If your 'plug' is someone else's boat...you know it ain't right and you know when you do it that you are stealing. If you feel good about it... call up the real manufacturer and ask him what he thinks. What do you think he will say? "Sure go ahead... My time and effort are your gain! Make it while you can get it!" I don't think so....

[Brad Zastrow]

Some of these posts almost sound like the Chinese who see nothing wrong with making copies of American software and movies and selling for pennies on the dollar overseas. Same concept of justification of why it is OK. :(

[Liqui-Fly]

Rus come on cutting edge. I was going to stop with this but please tell me...if all the top boats all perform about the same despite the dimensional differences, well please tell me what is so cutting edge about them. It appears to me that weight and HP have more to do with successs than actual design. Now we all know where the HP has to come from but weight and strength are things that never seem to be discussed. I mean come on you got your pad V, mod tunnel, true tunnel, pickel nose, pointy nose, strakes no strakesblah blah blah. You put a stock 150 on them and run them around the track and they all finish within boat lengths only one of the drivers is behind the curve. The only thing that seems unique to any of the boats is how they kill ya. Shoot you out the side or blow over or stuff.
David

[Capt.Insane-o]

I've been working on a new deck for the virage stage 3 plug/ hull, and Sam is absolutley correct about the amount of work it takes from scratch. I think I've spent about three grand or better, thrown out what I had going twice and the last time I worked on it I ended up on my knee's yelling " God, please help me!" lol. And I am currently "popping" a mold from the plug. If I am correct I don't think this design of the virage made it to production. I highly doubt I will make ANY money off these boats, as If I make 5-10 a year I will be doing way better than I thought. Bought them as kind of a hobby and if anyone needs a replacement hull in the future I will be glad to make one. Sure wish I could have got the Virage deck mold though. :rolleyes: But I will continue the new deck work as I have the time. But I am going to concentrate more on the bass boats (Hooker) because a HST is a bitch to fish out of! Am I a splasher?, I don't think so, MY deal was fair and square. I might have been at (one of?) Pipkorn's farms to get the Vegas skier molds, but I'm not sure. Sure would like to kick back a couple and shoot the breeze with the man though.........................................

[Liqui-Fly]

Yeah it's the Chinese. There aren't any American business that lease software long enough to learn it then have their own people write their own version for when the lease is up. It's kind of nice though because it allows you to customize the software to your needs. Kind of like slashing a boat. Nothing like blaming being "slow" on the rest of the dirty rotten crooked World. Maybe we should start working on antipiracy resins that heat up and decompose when being popped.
David

[Rusrog]

I agree that there are several designs that all seem to about the same... but go to an ODBA race sometime... Allison, Triad, Mirage, they are all cutting edge boats. They just happen to be completely different in their approach...
Also look offshore.... Fountain, Baja, Hustler, even Formula Fastech hulls go about what they do in different ways.... but they are all competitive. Just because they are all close at the finish doesn't mean that aren't incredible machines...
Take my old Stream.... Stick Dewitt Deweise's Pro Fuel powerhead on it and see what you get.... an illhandling death trap if you have the poor judgement to stay in the throttle. There are many cutting edge designs, and the ORIGINAL builders need to be able to not worry about their produst being copied by schmuck with a glass shop.

[Liqui-Fly]

Rus no they aren't. In Offshore, as soon as who ever it was went to vented hulls they all went to vented hulls....except Velocity. It also appears to me that when Mod-VP boats turned into drag boats the tunnels got shallower. Other than that it's all light shows and special effects. These boats have changed very little from the late 70's and I don't care what anyone says. What does and STV from the late 80's and an STV from the mid 90's run if they weigh the same and have equal HP?
David

[Racemore]

I believe I have mentioned this before,you and I know someone who, designed from different tunnels as reference took what he like and added what he wanted then built a plugs(2x4,2x6s,plywood etc.,made the molds,popped the parts,built the boat,rigged it, raced it to The World Championships dominating most of it in class untill mechanical failier.

34'6" Ocean racing Cat,rigged on the trailer with 3- 2.5 efi's to the F-16 canopies.Built in about a year.:rolleyes: Why?:)

Just to RACE and he is still racing and dominating in SuperSport and coming back to Drag.

http:// www.fullthrottlepowerboats.com

Are you going to race?:confused: :cool:

[Liqui-Fly]

He knew what the hell he was doing.
David

[Racemore]

You are right but little changes at 100mph make big differences and there are many points yo change.Go get a late 70's boat and race it today and you will think you are dragging alright,your anchor.

[Firestarter]

This is a post that should not exist, people are missing the point of this whole situation. To flip/pop/splash a boat is ILLEGAL, end of discussion. If you think it is right or wrong, it is still against the law.

Now to clear a few other things ups.
1. The Triad is not an Allison, they look similar, but the deadrise is steeper and the boat has more strakes. (you cannot add deadrise to a boat without building a piug.) I know that even Allison agnologies that it is a different boat.
2. A Mirage and an STV are so vastly different, The way they fly, turn accelerate etc. Drive both before you say they are even close to the same. Two honest designers, two vastly differnt results. Keep in mind the similarities are because their were a set of rules that had to be followed for the MOD-VP class.
3. An 80's STV is 10+mph slower than a 90's STV.
4. A 700lb STV will have a higher topend than a 500lb STV, but the 500 will accelerate harder.
5. The reason tunnels are shallower is because when you accelerate from a stand still the tunnel is full of water and has to be emptied before the boat can work as designed. Like a small bucket a small tunnel will empty faster then big ones. This is NOT condusive to rough water and turning----read developed for a intended class.
6. Offshore boats--yike, don't wanna go their, but I will say that Bill Farmers Excaliburs are the first fountains, Reggie does not design his boat, the same guy that designs the new cigarettes and Platinums also does Reggies boats. Yes he pays to have them designed ( MPYD is the shop). Hustler was the first to use steps. Steps do not work on an offshore vee in rough water, how do you airate a bottom that is in the air 50% of the time. Look at a picture of a Fountain Kilo boat at speed, the steps are in the air---it is all marketing. Velocity is rhumored to have contracted Darris Allison to help in his newest bottom designs, to be contracted means he was PAID. Every competitive cat in offshore has it's bloodlines from Pete Hledin's Skaters, the exception is George Linders Shadow Cat (now it too is copied), and the Jaguars.
7. Most that flip boats have the lack of understanding in how to constuct a quality boat much less the understanding of hydro and aerodynamics to design a boat of their own doing.

Their have been many accusations, assumptions and half whitted comments from people that have very limited knowledge of boats and business, becareful, honest peoples livly hoods are at stake.

RT

[2Blade]

I just have a lot of respect for someone who has an idea and in the face of bankers saying no, friends and family saying your crazy, etc, they go out and get the money and have the tenacity to risk that money and time and reach for something above the level of mediocrity. Starting a business is risky!! To go get a loan and buy a boat that your going to sell...your going to have to make interest payments and then hope that someone comes along and buys it...its risky...and I respect those who take a chance. I also believe it is the American way and one of the rewards of freedom to be able to take something...improve it...and build a business. I like the fact that when I bought my Liberator that a small part of business and suppliers and laborers made money...from the builder, to the motor guy, to the layup guys, to the interior people, etc. I feel that Liberator and Lightning and so on, should stand back and be proud of their handiwork...I know their family and grandkids will be...because they left a legacy...people in small business are pioneers. Just my opinion...add $.50 and you might be able to get a cup of coffee...but not at Starbucks, they took coffee and repackaged it and sell if for $3.00...good for them. Carl Kiekaefer bought defunct Thor outboards and put his name on it and resold them and he became an industrial giant...good for him. Thanks.

[BK]

"Changed very little over the years..." ?????


FYI, even "little change" can mean months of tweaking/tooling/testing in the shop -- It also means the difference between 1st place and 18th.

Someone here made a laughable comment that there is no such thing as "design competition"? I wonder what business that guy was in? Certainly not boat building.

But if a person NEVER has the priviledge to witness anyone actually design a boat, then obviously none of this will mean anything to them.

Why should anyone not involved with the Hi-perf boat industry have any compassion for the true marine design innovators? Do you think HTM was right in having the molds of an HTM splasher destroyed? Do you think Steve's widow is very thankful today, for the courage her husband had -- to keep these cheats from ripping off their business? This is now her future -- and protection of their innovative designs is a very important asset to her and her kids -- these are the assets they fought long and hard to build,-- Obviously meant a lot to him, since he even put his own life on the line. In my opinion, she deserves at least this minute amount of pleasure - to know their business innovations are protected from price undercutting by design thieves.

If splashing were allowed to continue the way it was, there would soon be no more "Boat Designers" around to watch anyway. Why would a boat builder even want to continue?

If splashers were allowed to take control like this, putting the real boat designers out of work, you can be sure that when today's kids grew up, they'd have all the fun they could stand riding around in a splash of a splash of a splash of a splash of a splash, in a boat with 30 year old technology.

Same thing would happen to computer software. But there is a new law protecting software coding now too.

If splashers were allowed to run amok back in the 1960's, then today we'd all be still riding around in Jersey Speed Skiffs. But in those days, moral character meant a lot.

Never fear. The new splash law is going to change this whole painful mess. It will take some years to weed out the ones who can't cut it. ALL new boat builders will actually have to produce a real product from now on. Even today when you visit the 2002 boat shows, more and more BIG boat companies are no longer afraid to "GO THE MILE" and are taking the risk to build a design from scratch. Because TODAY, they aren't afraid of losing the R&D expense to pop-offs anymore --- they now have protection from this kind of theft.

The boat shows this season have MORE fresh designs than the previous 10 years. On top of that, there are more REAL designers being hired to work in these boat shops.

The real boat companies are pleased, - pleased that every company is forced to start anew on the same level playing field and become "INVENTIVE", instead of the sad regression into becoming another "SPLASHER". Now the true risk-taking American Entrepreneurs and Talented Designers will be able to forge ahead and make headlines with their talents, with their copying-fears being eliminated.

This will also help America stay on top, and keep pace with other European countries that already have the similar design protections.

In their wake will be those companies that only possess one boat building skill; How to splash.

[2Blade]

I am not posting anymore on this subject. Peoples livelyhoods are at stake...good people with familys to feed, people to pay, college tuitions to pay etc...good hardworking people!

[Racemore]

In reference to;

#1 Pop the boat ,add deadrise in the mold.

#2 Simular but different.

#3 Ok.

#4Depends on the power and the HEART.

#5 Thats your science.

#6 Newtons Law,and when it does come down after the airration frees up the launch it frees up the rentery reducing drag while improving handling and speed.

[Liqui-Fly]

Deadrise can't be built in without making a plugblaaaaahahahahahaha.
David

[Liqui-Fly]

I work in chemical reasearch and development and at times have miligrams of materials in a flask worth over 10 grand that sometimes bomb and sometimes are successful. This happens two to three times a week. You know why it doesn't hurt when there are failures? Becasue the company I work for knows how to run a business. You know why they don't worry about failures because 8 out of 10 times I'm going to be successful.....you know why I'm successful? Because I know what the hell I'm doing. I understand chemistry and what things will work and what will not. If it takes you years to design a boat and build a mold and make little changes here and there to improve or change performance and it consumes all your time and resources to the point where you are hurt by splashers then it is obvious to me the builder doesn't know what the hell they're doing. Learn 8th grade math, get some design software, build it to spec, throw it in the water and if it doesn't perform anything like you wanted it to then you don't know what you're doing....quit.
David

[Racemore]

Deadrise can be added to a hull also,measurments at pad,chine and side are all changable. The loophole to the spash.:cool:

Speculate all you want about an industry that your no longer in, who cares.

You are welcome to your bias, cover your butt at all cost views.

Rusrog, :D :D So what?

Firewalker, I am not promoting anything illegal. My comments are in reference to legal existing business.

BK, always the puppet.... :p

I'm out of here on this topic, you know where to find me if you have something to say. :D I prefer a level playing field. ;)

www.************.com

Resistance is futile

[BK]

Originally posted by LF
then it is obvious to me the builder doesn't know what the hell they're doing.

If that is true, then why are these guys the ones being copied so often ?

Why? Because they KNOW how to design better than anyone else. With all that work they've done, their boats are absolutely PERFECT. That's why. And the splashers either can't - or aren't willing - to work hard like that.

And why don't you ever see these "faux-improved" splashes in any Performance Evaluations? ;)

[Liqui-Fly]

Obviously standing around in a garage watching someone else building a boat makes you an expert. I am out matched here. I spent too much time with math and sciences and didn't learn enough finagling in my day to knowanything. You all pick and choose who you think is a splasher and who is not. There is no reason behind the way some of you think. Frankly I don't think some of you know enough about engineering to know what is supposed to be difficult and what is difficult just because you are trying to reinvent the wheel. I imagine if I tried to build a rocket and never read a book on how to build a rocket then it would probably take me two years to build a decent rocket. But me being the moron I am I would just read a book on how to build a rocket and finish it in a week or two. I don't feel sorry for people who lack the talent to stay ahead of competition despite "dirty" business practices. I sort admire the moral arguement behind the whole thing but for the most part morals tend to be a post circumstance excuse. Like when you're too scared to punch someone in the mouth cause you're afraid of getting your ass kicked. Well I walked away...I was the bigger person. That's great when dealing with people but in business you'll only end up broke.
David

[TUG]

Where i go boating there are several 90's stv's ""with lots of power"" and there are several late 80's ""sprints""shallow bottom!!"" with lots of power, all 2.5efi's mod motors, The "SPRINTS" without a doupt are ""MUCH"" faster on top end with equal h.p. !!! However the inverts do excelarate much quiker !! Mr. Twible, ive told yu one and i'll tellyu again, Where i'm from the inverts run on average about 7 to 8 mph slower on top. These guys all know how to set a boat up too!! I own a stv sprint 88 model and have put myself threw living HELL getting it fully restored and i done this for ONE reason, I took a ride in the boat "which was a friend of mine"" and the sum bich ran 112mph with me and him in it with 28 Mazco 8300rpm and with gus him in it he's seen 115 ,117 at between 8500 and 8700 rpm consistenly with a BONE STOCK 91 2.5efi 260 1st gen. bottom guided Mahlie motor!! Is several 90's model STV's with MORE power, WAY MORE power that could never tuch this boat on topend so i ask you WHY IS THAT??? The fastest boat there right now only runs 113mph and it has a fully modified drag motor and yes they try diff. props too!!!:o

[Liqui-Fly]

You see that wouldn't prove his point,. In order to prove his point he had to say the reverse. You see making a boat do different things is really very simple. You just need to know what you want it to do and what you're willing to give up in the process. Mean while you make it seem like a plug has to be built to really reinforce the amount of work that goes into design changes. You see the truth in all of this is the least important aspect of all of this. Sounding like you know so much more than everyone else is the key.
David

[Greg Moss]

You know I read what you post and wonder how you got so far in life. Your out look on bussiness and the way things are done is f#cked up. You seem to be an expert on every thing and from what I read you are totally clueless. Yuo think that stealing a design from some one else that did all the work to make it happen should be legal. that is really a wrong outlook on life. You must not pay any attention to the people on this board at all. Now you even claim to that you could design rockets after ready a book and 1 week work. Son you need to move to Houston cause NASA needs you they been doing it for 50 years and still blow one up every once in a while. Boats, economics, law, rockets hell you don't really understand anything about life do you. You must sample all those chemicals you mix!!!!

[TUG]

WHAT IS IT DAY SAY, I'M FRUM MISSORRI, ""THE SHOW ME STATE"":D

[Firestarter]

Yike Tug

First I never said that the sprint was a bad boat, actually I think it is a great boat. I had one and which I still had it.
I do not doubt that you can run 117 with stock power. That is common up here. If you cannot run 115 you are SLOW. For instance a buddys Euro ran 116.3 on the stalker with a 100% stock 260 SS with a sportmaster. That same fellow has a 2001 Triad river rocket with 4 seats and a 36cc drag motor sportmaster and can run 126 evey pass. The boats with BIG power (no spray) are all over 130.
I agree that they are not gonna win a lot of races but they will run low 120's with a 26 ET.

And to clarify, I am a Equity trader by profession, have a degree in Econ (Dartmouth), also Mech Eng. Most of you are old enough to be my dad, but in my few years I have had over 20 boats, half of which run over 100 mph, my free time I rig boats. I have 4 waiting, some are for notables on this board. I think I have a clue what I am doing. (we should see soon enough, a pro gas boat is being built as we speak)

RT

[Liqui-Fly]

Some days you eat the bear somedays the bear eats you. What are your thoughts on the government regulating the crap out of everything because it gets dragged into all this splashing nonsense. How about explaining to uncle sam and insurance agencies that we have 19 ft consumer boats coming out of factories with 300 hp on the stern. Yeah let's get uncle sam to fight outr battle and then we'll all be sorry. Greg I apologize for my education and my ability to see beyond things but there isn't anyhting I've stated that is wrong. Sorry. You don't here me saying that deadrise couldn't be added to a mold. You don't hear me saying that it takes years and years to build a plug. You don't hear me saying that R&D costs hurt a successful and well run business. I also apologize for my ability to read and learn things quickly. NASA did use me while I was in college but I had to decline their offer upon graduation because I wanted to live closer to my Mother.
David

[Firestarter]

Bingo, Greg not a clue, glad he is in the lab and not running the show or we would have another Enron.

RT

[Liqui-Fly]

Engineering and Econ.....which did you fail first that drove you to the other...must have been the engineering considering the job you have. Now I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression of me I it seems like I always come to this but I ask questions and make statements looking for answers and responses. I am not a chronic a-hole. The bottom line is I would buy the best built boat available regardless of origin. If you make the best boat I don't think as a business you'll ever have to worry. Too me it seems like we're trying to convince people to buy something based on the brand name. When has that ever made sense?
David

[Firestarter]

Actually If you notice, I have an Ivy education which explains my job. I was an honour student, and have two full degrees.

LF agree, I want the best boat I can get too. I have never seen a splash that was built real well. Simply though, I think that you would see better product out of the legal builders if they could charge what is required. To beat someones price continually somewhere corners are gonna be cut.

You have your squewed view, and I have mine (possilbly squewed too.) Lets leave it at that.

RT

[TUG]

arent there any river rockets doing that he're??? Your saying everybody SLOW, i'd like to see som uv you guys come down he're and run some of these guys, I think you would change your mind. These 130mph speeds you talk about on lake boats simply do NOT exsist where i'm at, Pure bread raceboats have a hard time seeing that. I guess i would have to see it to believe it. But i disagree with YOU knowing somthing that everybody else doesnt!! What is so TRICK about a 4"land @sea hydrolic jackplate and a out thu box Mazco prop??? NOTHING !! thats what my boat is set up with!! Saying you know somthing everybody else doesnt is like saying My setup is the trickest setup known to man!! I guess the air is better up there or sumthin!!:rolleyes: The euro's ive read about other than the ones on the Triad board dont run but bout 107 to bout 111 at best, i guess yours got sumtin everybodies else dont:confused:

[Liqui-Fly]

My edu comments were in jest. Ivy haha there are a bunch of those here. Actually one of them thought he came up with a brilliant idea for one of our new materials. I thought he was kidding at first but...appparently he lived a sheltered Ivy life. Now I know you're aggrevated because we Americans don't appreciate the Monty Python esque article on the Evil Axis but I wouldn't expect you to understand why we don't think that's funny....not your fault. As for 130 mph lake boats off the bottle....man you don't think people know lies when they hear them? Come on. Atleast say something reasonable like 118. That in itself leaves your creditability in question and what is with the rigging secrets? Who are you rigging boats for? If they really go 130 I want one.
David

[BK]

Originally posted by Liqui-Fly
Too me it seems like we're trying to convince people to buy something based on the brand name. When has that ever made sense?
David

BINGO, Fly! I think you are finally getting it!

SPLASHING companies are trying to get you to buy a boat based on that -- THE BRAND NAME -- they aren't selling quality, they are selling a lower priced BRAND NAME ------ They don't usually hide the fact they splashed a boat -- they leave the obvious designs in tact -- any fool can tell what boat they splashed -- it's almost always going to be a very popular hull that everyone already knows all about.

Because this hull is already popular, these guys dont have to advertise in major magazines and they dont spend time and money attending Performance Tests and they have ZERO marketing costs.

Their best asset is the asset of the original company.

What they do is build a boat that is nearly IDENTICAL to the "BRAND NAME" that is already a proven success! What a wonderful way to make tons of money -- NO WORK, NO DEVELOPMENT SKILLS, NO MARKETING, NO RISK!

Since they have by-passed all the costly parts of designing/research/marketing a new product, they then can thus make even bigger profits, far bigger than the *Real* company ever can.

The splashers are illegally using the eye-candy appeal and world-renowned performance of the popular "BRAND NAME", which is an asset that belongs, by law and rightfully so, to the originating company.

[Liqui-Fly]

Why you are saying that "splashers" aren't selling quality. And I know you're going to tell me about quality from design to product (you know 6 sigma) but I've heard a lot of these boats are really nice and perform very well.
David

[Racemore]

It can be calibrated.It will slow those boats down to reality.

[mr fun]

lets call it a "COPY CAT!":D

[dan agnew]

if you were writing a book instead of reading it you would be called a plagerist. looking at a law suit by the original writer. it is stealing. how do you think you would feel if you bought the mold for the worlds fastest boat for xxx3 and your next door dweeb stole the mold and sold your worlds fastest hull? dont matter about quality or cost to build. it is stealing. but in this country we protect all rite to steal by making you take the dweeb to court to stop him and in the meantime hes raking in the cash you gotta lay out to stop his theft.

Danny

[Firestarter]

Tug/Liq, I have no secrets.

Look at the the Euro on the home page 115mph, STV sight, 112mph with stock boats and motors.
My tricks are nothing more than anyone with half an idea on how the peices fit together knows. Make sure that every thing is straight and square, I am willing to bet TUG if you put a straight edge on those STV the sponsons are hooked, hell I bet the pad has one to. Do I really need to tell you what that does. would you believe that thier is as much speed in the gearcase are in the prop.

Their is a fellow on this board that is running 134 with Race fuel STV----do you beleive it.........no need to answer

Maybe you should look down south, fla, has a dozen or so STV (and a few Mirages) that are over 130.

This board is for fun and education, take what you see with a grain of salt. Try and keep it civil.

[TUG]

I am being civil:D Have you ever heard of Acie Stringfield, He has a euro with more h.p. than a merc ever thought of having STOCK, Chuck Martini has a triad with more h.p. than any stock merc ever thought about, neither one of them can run the speeds you are claiming!! They both run the same place i do along with alot of other stv's and mirages! "REALITY" is where i'm from!! now everybody's boat has a hook, thats why none of them will run, and mind you some of the motors out where i run are put together by some of the most TRICK mechanics and machinest this sport has to offer. Hey my boat has a slight hook in it, not much but its there, I guess thats why my sprint is so much FASTER thn the inverts:D Helps air the ASS out alittle better:D I gus get sick of seeing and READING rediculous crap. I dont have nuthin against you gus telling you FACTS. Hey maby you guys do run 130 , But like i said before SHOW ME DONT TELL ME"" and i'll shut up!!:)

[Greg Moss]

Tell him about Dennis Full modified motor on laughing gas and his GPS went to 116MPH now you would have to bring down one of those 130MPH boats and show me because I don't think any of them stand a chance against him.

[Firestarter]

Tug, I know who Acie is, I also know that his River Rocket runs over 120......in drag set up.
I would love to show you, promotion of the sport is what we want, but we are covered in snow and ice up here (I can show you 120ish on a sled if you like)but until then or the rumble. You will have to hold your horses.
Now I did go back and re read my post, consider this. The new or invert boat is I should have stated 10mph faster on average per LAP. The question asked was the difference between a 80/90 STV, well in that time roundy racing was where it is at.

I will put my boat where my mouth is, but for now all we can do is bicker---fun aint it.

[TUG]

names and actual speeds but yes its true, Ryan Robertsons ols stv comp with INVERTED bottom and fully modified race engine on nos runing a 28 mazco "i believe" ran 116mph , that was a mile strech!! "show me dont tell me!!"":D

[TUG]

That boat is NOT a lake boat, people ive talked to say that boat is a VERY light RACE boat, not a lake boat!!! I havent had the privlege of seeing it yet!!:D

[Firestarter]

Told you I would----now wait for the dang season to start.

That speed is pathatic.

[TUG]

You gonna get me in a wreck wit my buddy:mad: firewalker:(

[TUG]

Denny does have bout the best running LAKE stv ive seen out there as far as excelaration period!! Believe it or not Firewalker but most the quikest LAKE BOATS there run on average 107mph but man you out to see them run dat 1/4 mile:eek: Aint talkin bout 440lb stv's wit drag mota's on them:D

[Firestarter]

These ain't no drag boats, they would get wiped in the quarter. If you ever came up here and saw what we boat on you would understand. We run 100miles at 80+ mph or lakes are very big, long and deep. Top end is everything.

[Racemore]

I'm not going to say that it is impossible for an STV to run over 130 because Carver can run 135 with a nitro Merc but ther are very few exceptions.Montys Triad is one of the fastest boats racing along with Marty,Dewitt and others that have worked along time to get were they are and there are 130 mph STV's all over south Florida,falling out of the sky.Bull****! Bringem to the Drags and lets see how fast they go.:cool:

[TUG]

""SHOW ME DONT TELL ME"":D

[PARKER RABE]

im in south florida and i really have never seen an stv here run 130 ive heard of one going 132 but have never seen it happen the fastest stv in florida is fast freddies blue and silver one , he runs a diamond motor with a 32 @125.6 ...i was ****ting when i saw those #s he makes a pass every sunday well into the 120s and that is a 1994 4 seater!

[TUG]

Maby its du satalite positioning:D

[Racemore]

I can believe that because I know that is what it takes to run that kind of speed.I'm just surprised that all those other 130mph STV's don't come and spank him,I mean there all over the place. Maybe you just don't get out much.:rolleyes: :D :cool:

[Phil Conant]

Maybe it takes 80plus miles to get to that speed?

[Racemore]

I thought that since Parker hadn't seen all off those boats they must have migrated to the north,maybe to spank you.You probably just didn't see them go by.:)

[Phil Conant]

They must not be able to slow down until Jacksonville. I have not seen any of them in central Florida. Don't forget they run 80plus miles WFO. At that speed and course length I am only at half track.

[TUG]

He'res what we'll do!! :D You getchu a vidio camera and aim dat sucker out du front uv du boat:eek: an hol dat gps right up infront uv du camera an when dat rivu rocket hits 126mph yu send me dat tape:D Also want tu see dat stock motu an dat LAKE boat hull!! so how bout it:confused: I'll pay fur du tape and du shippin!!!:cool:

[Firestarter]

Sure, I can cover the tape price too.
can it wait till the ice goes out, or do you want me tow it behind the sled?.

[TUG]

lET ME KNOW WHEN YU READY:D

[what200]

Firewalker-
Since you is equity trader, I was wondering if you own Brunswick stock or Bombardier stock?

Also was wondering if you are keynesian, classical, neo-classical?
Also in current economic conditions, what do you think consumer behavior will be like towards boats with respect towards
a)newer and more expensive 2 stroke tech or 4 strokes.
b)boat purchases in general
c)elasticity of brand name boat purchases vs. cheaper knockoffs


If consumers buy less boats do you feel that companies that do spend on R & D will reduce spending, and would this compound the afore mentioned splashing problem as companies produce fewer new designs.

Inquiring boatheads wanna know.



-Hunter

[Liqui-Fly]

That don't really know me I would like to let everyone know that I am not in favor of questionable business practices but am a strong beliver in knowing how things are. I have visions of the way things should be and how business should be conducted but I don't allow my vision or idea of what is right stand in the way of others opinions or means for success. Anyone who has ever bought anything from me or who has sold anything to me knows that I'm always fair if not more than fair. There are a lot of hidden truths in all of these stories and I'm just the devil's advocate here. Many feel strongly on the subject and see only one point of view. I stand by seeing many points of view and believe it is up to individuals to make their own decisions and not have to be belittled because of them. There is nothing worse than a used boat....especially a used boat that you really don't know much about. It can get expensive fixing one also. New boats are getting pricey also....I personally like to know their is an alternative. Builders may hate this and weatlthy guys with big egos don't understand this but me I'm just a poor little ol consumer and am happy to know there may be a new boat for me sometime in the future.

David

[BK]

Well, if you can't afford the real thing, you can buy a 2002 Ford Expedition for $2500 in certain parts of Mexico. Keep in mind, the ID's will be stripped from the vehicle however.

This is also an alternative for those who don't really care why they are cheap, but are only focussed on getting goods the cheapest way they can.

[TUG]

Hell make that 2!!! are they legal to bring home with us??? I can go get one and take the ford stickers off and put a chevy sticker on it and it will be legal??? would like to know more details on how this works plese:D

[Liqui-Fly]

Just because someone doesn't have a lot of money they don't deserve anything in life. Very nice BK. I guess I'll just blame society. You see I didn't get paid very well the 4 years I spent in the Marines straight out of high school. And then poor me had to pay for college once I got out and despite what everyone thinks uncle Sam didn't pay for it. So that cost quite a bit. Then I got married and bought a house all of which my wife and I paid for. So I really don't have a lot of money laying around right now so I guess you're right.....I should be ashamed that I can't afford a brand new unsplashed hull...and lord knows I certainly don't deserve a new boat. You're all class...oh what kind of boat do you own?
David

[BK]

Actually, LF, I haven't had a boat since before I got married. I think if you ever took the time to check out the people who design and build fast boats (The <23' hulls built from scratch), you'll find the whole business is not what you think. You probably assume we raked in all kinds of money through the years, when the real truth is that the first 5 years of business we worked our butts off and still qualified for FHA housing assistance.

That's why its really tough to see the splashers living on the lake, enjoying the good life, raking in far more $$$ than the original, hard working designers are ----- and all because they sat and watched a real designer develop and build something beautiful and successful, and when he was finally done, they took it for themselves.

If you finally work long and hard to buy a nice boat that you and your wife could enjoy, with no insurance coverage available -- just how would you feel if you walked out of your home one day and found it was gone?

And now someone else was with his family, (a poor soul who couldn't afford a new boat) was enjoying time on the lake in YOUR boat, instead of you?.....and he paid the thieves less than half the cost you paid ?

The story is exactly the same with those inexpensive Ford Expeditions.

Except the victims in that Ford situation probably had insurance to cover their loss. Boat builders don't.

[Racemore]

Find somebody that has on of the ORIGINAL Mirages and bring it on. I can come up with a boat that is stronger,and faster and also handles better than the original.The changes are so different and better it will embaress you and whoever is following us.

OR check your listings of the fastest Super Sport Boats and just stay home. Quality and Speed start in the mind then transfer to the boat. MATCH UP.

[Liqui-Fly]

You see I like boating and would never go without a boat so I guess I'm like a boating crack addict. You bend situations to fit your needs and nothing ever gets resolved when discussing issueswith you. Unless of course an individual totoally agrees with you. I have more to offer this board than just splashing laws ect. so I guess I'll get off this topic because there are some that feel I'm ruining my reputation by bickering with you. It's all about boating (on the water type) with me and that is the least of your concerns. I'll just continue to ship props out to guys so they can try them, send out parts, and go to races to show some support. You continue to be a mouthpiece for splashing and the APBA and if fate permits we'll never cross posts again. hehe
Respectfully,
David

[TUG]

If i really wanted one i could afford a brand new stv!! Its not the boats that are overpriced, its the friggin motors that blow my mind, how do they justify 21000 for a merc drag motor is beyond me, dats why i build my motors out of used parts!! One mans junk is another mans treasure:D These motors companys are out of hand thow!! If you know the right people you could build a 2200hp blown alchahol engine for that kind of $$$!!:rolleyes:

[BK]

Racemore: Mirage never built a boat for a 150hp class. We built boats in MOD-VP, SST60, SST45, Mod-C, SportC, And Drag.

But if we were to build a Supersport, I can assure you it would be the best we could build, and would certainly run at the head of the pack. Half of it already is.

But we did build boats for other classes however, and achieved many National championships, World Championships, High Points, Divisional Championships, Records, including an International UIM World Record that still stands today.

If you can build a boat that is better/stronger/faster/blah blah GO FOR IT!

[Racemore]

the reason no money was made because they some were slow and some were ugly and some were slow and butt ugly.They were new and unproven and the STV's were kicking that ass. Then somebody refines and changes over and over again and again until they create a boat that sells itself. But the work won't stop there because if you don't keep moving ahead you will soon be following behind. Isn't that what all the cryings about.KEEP UP!:cool:

[Racemore]

Look,I Know what you accomplished,times and rules change and some records wont be broken because the races won't be run.

we can take the 150 off and match up,lets settle it,+find one that hasn't had the bottom put back in it or the sponsons put back on and MATCH UP.

The whole world is a splash for christ sakes or we would all be driving fords.Now that will scare ya.

[BK]

LF --

I see your next step is to bring up unrelated subjects in attempt to smear my character. Sorry, I don't play that game.

I am hardly the mouthpiece for the "Vessel Hull Design Protection Act", which was enacted to protect the assets of future hull designers, (AKA: Hard working business people with bright ideas) But with that association I couldn't be more proud. It's also known as a small business owner anti-piracy, anti-theft law. And it was long overdue.

[TUG]

Tell us how dem STV's used tu whoop up on dem mirages, :D

[BK]

No thanks guys. If you can't find anything more to add about the subject of splashing, then I'm not going to stoop down there and get involved with insults and name-calling.

Sorry :)


Have a great day.




PS. Why are Mirage's splashed more than any other hi-perf hull? Because they are slow and ugly? Think again :rolleyes: :D

[TUG]

a good old boat story bout du back end uv dem Sprints:D

[Got to be OMC]

If a boat is the same dimensions such as length and width but the sponson measurements and the pad are completely different is this a splash or a pop or is just similar. I dont know the proper terminology. What if it has more tunnel compression, at what point is it a different boat?

[Sam Baker]

I'll play. We race 'em up here and one of the guys got a Mirage River Racer....after a month of getting it dialed in, he was whippin' up on the guy with the STV who had a better motor and two years of experience with the boat. This was a weight controlled class - 1600 pounds. It was a 2002 Mirage River Racer and a late model (not sure about the exact year, but identical to what Wally's making now) River Rocket.

We've sold STVs, Allisons and Mirages. There isn't a big difference in speed between the river rocket and the ski racer, but the Euro is definitely slower. It's meant for a different purpose, so that's no big deal. I was impressed when we sold our first Mirage from Florida. With a stock, production 200EFI (not promax) and a SportMaster gearcase, it ran 94 MPH (Gaffrig Speedo) with a 28" Cleaver. I ran it once across the lake, put it on the trailer and said "Don't touch it." The owner has said he's seen 96 with a bigger prop and I believe him.

When I had my QuarterMaster, the only boat that would beat me here (1400 lbs.) was an Allison. The STV was never an issue. I have pictures of a Yamaha on a Ski Racer that gave me all I could handle too.

It's not fair to compare a River Rocket to an full racing Drag boat, I understand, but before anybody thinks that STV is the be all end all, that sounds a little like somebody's bein' a "homer." That's fine as long as you admit it.

I love all three boats. I love driving an Allison, I love the bang for the buck the Mirage gives you (price hasn't changed in 3 years now), and I love the way the STV looks.

SuperSport is such a new class and the technology and setups are still so new that it's really impossible to say which boat is fastest. If you go by high points, then I guess the Blackbird is the fastest boat. It's also tough when you add different motors in the mix. In the last days of ModVP, the STV was definitely NOT the boat to beat overall. The Blackbird, Mirage, and VisionCraft were more consistent winners.

I hate this stuff where one boat is "the best" and the others are horrible. I don't care who you are, or how fast you go....there's always going to be somebody faster. If they drive a different boat, does that mean the boat is faster or is it the motor/setup/driver combination? I'll put my money on the motor/setup/driver combination before I start trying to switch boats everytime I see somebody faster.

[OPC YA]

Earlier in this post it was stated that Eagle One has the Lee molds that are similar to the Mirage but not the same. The orange Eagle One boat in Supersport is a 1985 Mirage bought brand new by the current owner. How is it that the boat was sent to Eagle One for a capsule deck and put into these molds that are not the same as the Mirage molds, but it fit in them perfectly? It seems there is more to these old stories than any of us will ever know.

[TUG]

I own a original Mirage skiracer "beutiful boat " Val knows which one!! 90 model, it ran 93 on gaffrig with mildly mod. 2.4 carb, then i put my 92 260 offshore with sportmaster on it the best i saw was 103 on average, thats streched out!! think i saw 106 "ONE" day. but then i own a 88 stv sprint that "WILL" run 115 with 260 and another guy at the river had a sprint that would run 106 with mod. carb 2.4!! I still own the mirage and have no plans on turning loose of it but i disagree with Mirages being as fast as stv's, where i'm from this is not true all and ive got the boats to prove it !!:)

[BK]

Since Brad has only been in business building MIRAGE BOATS since 1987, and his Jaguars were designed in 1988, then obviously that "1985" orange Supersport boat didn't come from our stable.

I have a hunch if you ask around, you'll find out that 1985 hull came from the LEE molds, or maybe even a splash of them.

[TUG]

My buddy Steve Coleman has a original Lee tunnel, Wasnt it some knd of brekup between 2 guy Lee and sombody else, and a judge ruled that neither one of then could manufacture the hull and they each got some molds to sell???:confused:

[RedStv]

I dont know about all this splashing and being semilar stuff but I'm thinking of racing super sport this year what boat is winning the most races?

[BK]

TUG -- There was a partnership behind those old LEE molds, My father-in-law and another guy. David Lee was hired to build the plug and molds for these two guys. Lee also built the boats for them, but the partnership soured.

There was NO judge involved, but neither guy would sell his share of the partnership to the other. It ended as a standstill. Neither partner got anything, and so the molds stayed at Lee's shop, totally idle. (At least to our knowledge they were idle).

So, technically, since there was never a legal dissolution, those old Lee molds still belong to that partnership.

Tell Coleman hello from us.

[Racemore]

The Winningest boat in SuperSport can be bought at,

http://www.fullthrottlepowerboats.com

The boat other boats want to be.:D

[H2Onut]

Again here we go, I guess I am going to try to say in middle ground here and play moderator?

I think there is alot mor here than we realize. so if I may spout a liitle bit. Everything in the world has been splashed, stolen, ripped off, copied, whatever word you want to use.

The telephone was invented by Grey, yes Grey, Alexander Bell beat him to the patent office by 4 hours, Grey had spent more time, more R&D and more $$$ . Does anyone recognize this name...HELL NO, does anyone care, HELL NO. All WE care is that when we dial a number the phone call goes through. This leads us to Bell Labs, Western Electric, THE ONLY COMPANY WHO produced phones. well Cartaphone comes and now everyone builds phone. Did they all do R&D and such, flip know, did you buy those phones ??? flip yes. IBM comes out with a PC, now theres bazillion of them, are not they all splashes? WHY DO YA THINK THEY CLL THEM CLONES I don't own an IBM, but sure own a PC. SPLASHING IS AN AMERICAN WAY, well the Japs way, take a product, improve it or modify it and put your name on it, Thats the way it is. From a previous post I gathered no laws prior to 1998 ? Is that correct. If you make a product so special ya better protect it and see that you trust NOBODY with your formula.

Now in BK's defense, If I spend countless hours, designing and building something, I would also BE VERY PISSED if someone copied it. HUMAN NATURE. But thats the way it is.May not agree with it, but thats the way it is. So what do you do, Cry in your beer, or go design something better and protect it a little better.

I mean, we as consumers LIKE CHOICE, we LIKE quality, and WE LIKE LESS EXPENSIVE. So if someone makes a clone (no mention to qulaity here) and you see item A next to B, A is 1/2 price, what ya going to buy ?

I mean you go to Walmat, they clone EVERYTHING, can buy a BIC lighter, or a walmart light, SCOTT paper towels or Wlamart paper towels. Again, thats just the way it is.

So this thread will go on and on and on, with no end in site, Ther is NO resolution. Its up to our great friend LAWYERs, ya know the people who have $*#*(#(# up everything decent in the world to decide and screw that up too. We are all brotheres and sisteres here (in a sense) we all share the same interest in FAST OUTBOARD BOATS. So whats the bottom line here.

There are winners, and losers, Champs and Chumps,

Sometimes your the bug, Sometimes your the windshield!
No guarentee's that life is fair, Unfortuneatly.

I wonder if John Crapper gets royalties, or titslinger ?

In closing, You are ALL my family, yes we grumble and mumble, But any of ya ever get in a pinch, call on da NUT,,, I'll be there!!!

[RedStv]

oh youre right lonnie, as a matter of fact let me check, thats right I 'm having one of those built rite now!to hell with all this he splashed she splashed crap, it doesnt get anymore original than my new quarter shot! oh yea I guess its time for a new screen name, red heavy slow stv doesnt really apply anymore!

[QuarterShotT1]

oh yea this name feels faster already...............

[BK]

From a previous post I gathered no laws prior to 1998 ? Is that correct. If you make a product so special ya better protect it and see that you trust NOBODY with your formula.


Not exactly. There are laws that exists right now, but they are confusing. A judge had to decide if a hull was another companies' "Idea" or an outright "Splash". Those are two completely different things.

A "Splash" is when a company take the assets of another company and makes it his own plug. (meaning, not making his own plug to mold from)

To copy an "Idea", is not illegal. (Unless it is patented). And most boat companies don't care at all if another uses their "Idea". Because that company will still have to complete the design, and the end result will have many, many differences.

But when the assets of another company are "Greased-up" and used as a plug for the new company (Making an identical mirror impression, even with minor changes), this is called "Design Piracy". And that is what is illegal. And eventually hinders marine innovation and undercuts the originators by a great degree -- without protection of their own designs and development costs, the designers will just quit designing. And this was happening in the mid 1990's and quickly becoming a real problem throughout the industry.

But the laws were too vague, and most judges were left confused if the boat had been changed slightly. Many times they couldn't make a ruling. The legal fees were way to high to even try and reclaim the losses. Splashers knew this and thus they went to town, even though this has ALWAYS been illegal.

Then came the new law, and it reads PLAIN for the judges: If a registered hull is "splashed", it is a $50,000 fine, recovery of lost profits, recovery of legal fees and destruction of all copies: Plugs, molds and boats.

And since this is a Federal Copyright law, it is a Federal crime to register a design that is not completely your own.

It's pretty simple --- You can take ideas from other companies and start building your own plug -- But you can't take another company's hull and make it YOUR plug.

HTM is the first company I know to use this new law and come out a winner, and it shows it does work.

[Racemore]

Let the Rat killing begin!!:cool:

What will you take for that old slow STV?

[QuarterShotT1]

that old slow stv has already moved on to greener waters in GA. or lets say it retired lol

[TUG]

Greg Moss gus delivered your father -n- laws o'l Lazer he set the world record with an inline 6!! Just got in from unhitchin it from his truck !! That lil Lazer needs sum work but the TUG wil get her lookin good again, we're gonna run Pro 120 class with it!!:D :eek:

[TUG]

You dont scare me :D Fo you go tawkin bout dem o'l slow heavy stv's, My buddy Colemans Lee wont run but 107 with mildly cleaned up 2.5 260 offshore, dat sprint goes around like he's tied to a tree:D "SHOW ME DONT TELL ME"!

[BK]

You know, my father in law lives down there close to ya'll..... And has built quite collection of goodies. One of his most recent purchases was a little famous Tennesee Allison with two "Tilted-in" motors.

http://allisonowners.com/LouisCollins.html

He lives along a river in a quiet retirement neighborhood along the Llano -- and every few days or so, he goes blasting up and down the river, scaring the begeebers out of all those blue hairs fishing on the docks.
:D

I'll be sure and tell him about that Lazer. :)


http://allisonowners.com/p/i-2.jpg

[TUG]

You have one hell uv a father-n-law:D I'll keepyu posted on progress!! "Pictures":D

[Racemore]

This STV is a Euro,it doesn't count:D :D :cool:

[Scott Gilmore]

Just to add to this WORTHLESS thread.............HEY RACEMORE , got any Ted (slowman) Nugent 8 tracks ??????Scott :o :o

[Racemore]

You need a drink.

Are you off doctors care now?:cool:

[Scott Gilmore]

You could be right, 6 Beefeater triples on the rocks puts me in a grumpy mood . Maybe I need to re-think my options. I know this , I'll buy whatever the **** kind of boat I want, splash or not ! :D :D Scott

[Racemore]

Riding in your splash

Listening to your Barry Manilow

:D

[TUG]

STV vs. Mirage,, Which ones Faster:D :eek:

[Racemore]

The one whose Motor runs the best and makes it to the final checkered flag ! In most cases anyway.:D

[dan agnew]

i want to know about the sweaty teddy music. got to be better than a bunch of bs about whos fastest

Danny

[TUG]

You know what i'm sayin:D Lakeboats!!! "Topend!! H.p. for H.p. similar setup ect ect;) Am i the only one who knows:confused:
How bout dis:D My stv sprint wit 260offshore against Twible Dee's Rivu Rocket:eek: :D

[Michael Dixon]

Put my money on the rocket!!!

[TUG]

Yud loose yu money ondu Rocket:D
Man you guys aint no fun:( :D

[mr fun]

:( a jersey speed skiff isn't the next best thing from a dugout canoe. there somethin to be said of a design that survives the test of time, like the V twin harley has been marketed since 1909. and look at everybody elses attempt at climb on that wagon. i like the idea of a vessel that can be multi purpose, cruise, haul butt, look nifty, and be left at the dock w/out havin to worry every 90 secs. if it got swamped. alot of people have been cripled at that cutting edge and many have lost it all, my dad included and most recently the HTM gentleman. i plan to market a skiff and if you've never ridden in one, may have the oppritunity at the rumble. as far as excitement, the last race i went to had the entire crowd on their feet and a raffle prize was a ride in one, much to peoples excitement. i still respect the same ethics as new technology as i purchased this mold from the widow of a much loved (and not loved) builder-compedator. so please refer to a cobia tri-hull next time as the obsolete design. much respect, and admoration for your families endeavors. Keith.

[H2Onut]

I think those Jersey Speed skiffs aare Kick-Butt. There are a ride in the pants for sure.

[BK]

JSS class are totally cool. But the technology of the hull dates to the prohibition days. I do love them though -- and I spent many hours watching the "Snow Goose" romp at Puddingstone reservoir. I've never seen two people having so much fun. I almost got a chance to be rider once. Now I wish I never would have turned that suggestion down. Thumbs up for the beauty of JSS.

The point I was making was merely how marine design innovators advance our culture and improve our lives -- Bob and Art Carlson for example -- and if the true designers quit, we'd get stuck in a zone that never improves.

Even the 100mph boats can be improved, not only for speed but for safety too. But it takes people who have the experience and know-how to get those efforts accomplished. Splashing is a form of regression, and if uncontrolled, sets us back dozens of years.

I'd LOVE to ride in a Skiff!! But I don't think my neck is going to allow it anymore :(. Hope to see you there, Mr Fun!

[Michael Dixon]

I've never seen a sprint boat within 7 - 10 mph of a mod-vp or ski bottom. That was why Roarke changed it. "Guaranteed 6.5 mph with same power!" Now out of the hole thats a different animal. The only stv to beat the sprint bottom in the first 60 feet is the notorious drag bottom; which is unquestionably the winner. Top end: give me the ski, all around give me the mod vp. By the way, all these doubts on top end numbers, just remember that a 775 boat with mod vp bottom was tested in '93 that went 112 with a bone stock 2.4. Top end is just as much set up as horsepower. :) See ya, Michael

[Capt.Insane-o]

Post edited

[Scott Gilmore]

Well said Insane-O , not sure what it really means but it sounds good (I'm really DRUNK) . Scott :D

[TUG]

"SHOW ME DONT TELL ME" :D
Where i go boating its the exact opposite of what you, just said, The Sprint Takes longer to air out du to the shallower sponsons it does not pack air as quik!! The big end the sprint allways wins, even against stv's wit mo h.p.!! All these guys have been boating longer than i have and know how to set these boats up to run! However there isnt nobody with a drag stv out there, there is a shallow invert river rocket and a deeper invert ski comp . I'm gus telling Facts of real world boats! 114 with a stock 2.4, John Tiger must have wrote dat one:D "SHOW ME DONT TELL ME":D
I'll have my Sprint up and running soon and will figure out a way to post How fast it is where it wont be desputed!! Its also gonna have 170hp nos. shot but dat wont get used !! I see alot of TALK on how fast these STV are with stock power, Lets see undesputable proof!!! Lake boats is the key he're, not 440lb hulls with stock f1 motors o.k., I know lets see that Euro go 116mph:rolleyes:
You'll see my sprint do it!!!:D

[Michael Dixon]

What year are the boats you talk about(inverted v pro comp)? As for 440 # hulls I am yet to see one. The lightest I've ever seen is 492 with fuel tank , seat, steering wheel, shifter, fuel pump, and trim pump. I believe if it were any lighter it would flex. As for proof, let me know when a big meet is somewhere between and I'll be there.:with a 117 mph pump gas euro(not even xr6) and a 128+ river rocket. As far as how long it takes to get there....both can get to there top speed in about 3/8 a mile. We may have gotten our wires crossed up on what a sprint bottom is....if you can outrun an equal powered river rocket..you don't have a sprint bottom. period"6.5 mph guaranteed" a quote from both Roarke and Rusty. Rusty verified it again today. I agree with you on one thing...the type boat we drive. I'm not dissing your boat, it obviously runs great, but it will not outrun an equally setup (meaning bottomcondition too) and powered rocket with either the ski or the mod-vp bottom. Your boat seems to be the one out of the norm....maybe you need to show us!!! :) Take care, Michael

[Michael Dixon]

By the way the shallower sponsons pack air quicker...that was the whole idea behind the drag boat. It takes less air to fill the tunnels therefore the boat will air out quicker.

[TUG]

I gues all my buddies need to call roarke an get der money back:D I understand your filosify on the shallower bottom packing air quiker where a river rockets concerned, but if youve ever seen a sprint sit still in the water or run a 1/4 mile you'll notice how the boat never lifts its bow, It rides very flat, compared to a river rocket or ski comp where the front lifts in the air and takes a set that way packing more air quiker! "Bigger mouth so to speak" Ive seen it to many times!! The same boats that can whoop the sprints ass in the 1/4 get beat like a drum on the bitg end, even when they prop up! Now i'm not saying that theres not a river rocketr that will run faster than my sprint , "Theres more that wont than will" i'm gus saying Facts uv what ive seen! The ski-comp is a 91 i beleive "Ryan Robertsons o'l boat" and the river rocket i'm not sure but it is the shallower invert of the 2!:D I definantly would have tu see dat Euro run dat speed "ON GPS":D

[TUG]

Funny you should say might boat is out of the normal People have been saying that for about 7 years now about this boat, and if you read all my post from a few days ago i mentioned the fact that the other sprints there dont seem to run as fast as this one neither!! Yu might be on tu sumthin cuz you aint du only one who;s said that:) I will show you guys this spring, Maby make a vidio with the GPS in hand , but i aint ****tin you bout dis he're boat, dats fo sure:D
Oh my setup is a land @ sea 4" hydrolic jackplate with a out thu box mazco 28 re:D Real TRICK huh:D

[Michael Dixon]

What kind of speeds are you running? I'm selling my euro so I may have some props you can try. Have you tried a big cleaver yet? They always seem to put the best numbers down, but a re3 Mazco is definitly a great all around prop. I didn't mean any harm in my comments: it's just that I've been around alot of STV's(race and pleasure) and other than extreme exceptions what I stated is the norm. As for alot of guys having 130 mph STV's ...there isn't. But as for 130mph+ STV's existing: trust me there are at least 3 that I know of. One is a nitrous boat but the other two are not. One in particular turns a 32 cleaver about 9400 thru 1.78 gears. Sounds like you already have a great setup, but if you have any questions, email me. Thanks Michael

[TUG]

Me and a friend "previous owner"ran 112mph re28 at 8300rpm with both uv us in it!! Bone stock 91 2.5efi 260 1st gen. bottom guided mahlie motor!! Speeds with one person would see 115 to "117 acasionaly"consistently at 8500 to 8700 rpm with cle gearcase:D This spring it will have my Top guided 92 260 efi offshore with sportmaster on it:D along wit a Mad ECU and 170 h.p. nos shot:eek: The sprint i have is the 88 Ski comp sprint converted in to a 2 seater "one in fron one in back!! doing restoration right now:(

[Michael Dixon]

Tug, You'll like the sportmaster as far as handling. Have you tried a lightining or any other prop with bow lift? The sprint boats I've been around run real high in the nose until 100 then lay over like the rest. I don't know how high you run the prop shaft but whatever it is you'll be able to come up alittle(1/4)with a sportmaster. Try a 30 cleaver if you get the chance. You'll be suprised at how it keeps pulling. Most people don't realize how well an STV will haul weight at speeds(to an extent) See ya, Michael

[TUG]

This one does gus that, the bow does rise sum but when compared to the set a rocket will take off the line it doesnt. My boat comes on up to about 95 and lays down flat "real flat" an all du sudden when it lays down du motor gets like a second wind or sumphin, dat when the boat says BY BY all du way up to 115, Its almost like it moves in slow motion until dat bow drops and then it gus takes off man:D I LUV IT!!!!:D :D :D
Oh, no i havent tried a big cleaver but would luv to see if i could turn it:D Bein the 28 is a round ear it should turn a 30 cleaver, The hydrolic jackplate makes about 3 mph on top:D

[ZZGRAFFIX]

Guys, listen toMike Dixon, he knows whathe is talking about and the speeds of the two boats he mentioned, well....he is correct!! Lot's for VERY fast STV's inthew Augusta area and his is one of them. Ummmmm, by the way Mike, I hear there might be a couple BIG boats around this summer. Know of any??

[Firestarter]

Hey Mike, how is that wonkey 4 blade working?

RT

and we will have to "show them". I have been telling TUG that he is far faster than any sprint I have ever heard of.

[TUG]

Ive been thinkin, maby evubody;s problem wit du TUG is he's a ""tell it like it is"" kinda guy:confused: :D But rest assured I DONT LIE ,,<< PERIOD>>!!! Dont have too, I know my boat isnt the fastest stv around but it DOES run what i said it will, An when i hit dat button, God help anybody dats still beside me:eek: :eek: :D

[Michael Martin]

Hey Michael Dixon,
We're having a rally down here in SC on May 4th and will be running all boats on radar, and will be having state record's
might be a good time to show off that killer STV you got.

Mike

[TUG]

If it means anything tooyu, the boat wuz known to run these speeds long before i owned it!! I have a nice Mirage ski-racer too, My point iz is i could afford to guy buy another hull " Newr one" with nothing wrong with it but i bought this one knowing full well it was rotton!! One reason why, It wux the Fastest Stv ive ever ridden in PERIOD!! The motor wuz stock because i have it he're at my house with a nice bay window in the side of it:D I'm not a rich guy but i got enouph money to buy a boat dat doesnt need stringers transom floor knee's ect and paint job!! Why do you think i would invest all this time and $$$ on such an old boat:confused: :confused: :D BECAUSE ITS FAST!!:D

[TUG]

Martin i think your invitations scared dem off:D
Sorry gus couldnt resist:D

[Michael Martin]

Didn't mean too.

The fastest boat we've had so far has been 115 (1/4 master) so I
would really love too get a faster boat down here.

Tug you know its not really that far for you either.........


Mike

[Racemore]

Slow down there speedy.:rolleyes:

Just read the post about the STV speeds and you must know something nobody else knows.:confused:

a 32"pitch prop turning 9400 thru a 1.78 to 1 ratio = 160.027mph without slippage.With 10% slippage which is high for a well tuned wheel = 144.024 mph.:eek:

There must be a mistake dude.:cool:

[TUG]

The sprints fixin to be getting a paint job, it'll be a while for me:D But it will happen soon enouph;)

They know i'm gus pokin at'em:D

[TUG]

Thers 2 Michaels talkin he're, hehehe done whooped out du #'s on his ass:D :cool:

[Michael Martin]

I just simply invited anyone with a boat to come down & play.
Theres a bunch of fast boats everywhere & would like them to all
come under the radar gun, & get them some free goodies.

TUG I'd love to see some of the pictures of your boat when you get a chance. I've only seen one sprint. Are there many of them left?

[Michael Martin]

Thanks, I was kinda wondering how I got in the mud on the deal....

Mike

[TUG]

Where i run there are about4 or 5 of them, but ive searched the stv owners board and there gus dont seem to be many of them left at all, they probly all wrecked or in a field somwhere:D Ive totaly restored mine because it was so FAST:D Stringrs dash transom kneebraces, the whole 9 yards, also took all the floor out so its a stringer boat now and should weigh in a little lighter, went lite and strong with the glass so we'll see, when i get it done i will post pics of project to completion:D cyu

[Racemore]

I fixed it.:D

Oh, and splashing is to make an identical piece and the only way to regress dozens of years is to pop an old Mirage.Still with talent,hard work and several years of R&D it can progress to the front of the pack.Only constant work can keep it there.Thats work not talk.:cool:

[Michael Dixon]

Racemore, Trust me, I know how to calculate speeds with rpm's and gear ratio as good as anyone on this board and number one I've never gotten better than 12.5 percent slip on a cleaver especially one that is cut down as much as this one and had the leading edges rolled. Truth be known its probably more like a 31 and if it ain't a Mercury tach(this one's an extreme 11000 with recall) they usually read a little high. Tell you what, same deal let me know when there's an event thats suitable and the only numbers we'll post will be from a radar gun: and if it's not over 130 I buy you the radar gun. I don't claim to have the fastest rocket, but the numbers I stated are real and as far as I'm concerned thats pretty sporty. Just because the numbers don't always fit the equation: don't underestimate them. I could have picked a random number and made it work out for all to see....but I didn't I used numbers that were from real life.

[Michael Dixon]

I appreciate the invitation. I had already told Wally that I'd like to go. How far is it from where I'll have to put in? I hear its kind of rough at Lake Murray. Is there any where I can put in alittle closer. Thin boat and an 8 gallon fuel cell don't go to far in rough water. How far do we get to run? Is it just 1/4 or top end. That would be an easy way to settle this dispute on calculations. If you get the chance, email me with some details. Thanks, Michael

[Michael Dixon]

Thanks for the back up. So what did you think about the two big boats today? Pretty sporty for a 2 ton and a 3 ton boat. Don't disown me but I the color has got to be changed up a little. The 26 was immaculately awesome. It's amazing that a boat that big has that much punch. I wish you'd have went with us....we definitely had plenty of room. If you think about it email me...I may need some letter work. Thanks, Michael

[Michael Dixon]

One more post. After Cavenaugh worked this thing, the only thing it had in common with a wonky four blade is the actual 4 blades. It closely resembles a formula one prop now. Its been a little cool to test lately, but it now comes out of the hole like a drag prop all the way up to.....well let me say high rpm's so I won't have to be sent back to math school. Haven't checked top end but it should be in the mid 20's with excellent handling. It's definitely a safer prop. Other than full speed runs(radar), in normal everyday lake racing I think it should do well. You were right, this thing has great midrange. By the way, I just left Wally's shop, have you picked out a boat yet? He had the sharpest looking river rocket I've ever seen in there today. I don't remember the owner's name but he's from Canada. Take care and give me a call sometime.

[Michael Martin]

The actually radar runs aren't too far from where we put in at & we don't hit the big water so it's not bad rough either. If you would like you can come register then go put you boat in at the state park whitch is even closer. As far as fuel don't worry VP is bringing the truck to the actual radar site too.

Here's a flier on the event.

[Michael Martin]

E-mail me & I'll send you a flier. Or check it out online- sclakes.com

[email protected]

[TUG]

Show all dem Riva Rockets du back uv my sprint:D Dem guys down he're sho nuff seen enuff uv du back uv dat Sprint:eek:
They gave me the $$$ to paint it gus so day could get a diffrent view:D Only this year its gonna be a smaller view;) Might even need beenoculars tu see it:eek: :D :p

[Michael Martin]

Well ya got 2 months for da sprint or ya could just bring the mirage.
Or just grab the ol john boat :eek: , we ain't bias...

[TUG]

It will be done getting painted probably middle of March and then a couple weeks tu rig it out, set nos up and get her dialed in ect ect. Us Texas boyz move slow except when we Sprint:D :eek:


Oh Mirage is a TUGBOAT:D

[Michael Dixon]

Tug, Where did you tie in for extra fuel? I,ve got a perfect set up for a horn but have never went to the trouble to do the svs. I've seen several though that were actually treaded into the spacer plates on front of the svs. That way if something happens(solonoid sticking), when you get out of the throttle there'd be no nos.(just a lot of fog coming from cowling) Good Luck with your boat. See ya.

[TUG]

They are drilled in to the spacer plate.. in front of the cages, I use methenol for fuel enrichment, Separate tank! Ive got a airhorn too, Gus running the Madecu not the intake!:D :eek: :eek: :eek:

Oh ive never had a silinoid stick, I wouldnt worry about that, Gus keep your filter clean and make sure when you spray that your pressure drops considerably before you let off botton!! Use a map gas torch to heat the bottle up to about 1200lbs and let her rip:eek: :eek: :D

[Liqui-Fly]

A couple weeks means about six months. That STV won't see water until 2003.
David

[TUG]

It will be done this spring!!:D :eek: :eek:

[Liqui-Fly]

Yeah mine too. April 13...just in time to tune up and be ready for a showdown with my ol man. I told him he betta upgrade dat mota on his Stoka or else he was gonna be lookin at da stern uv da Fly all summa. Dat iz if the ice is gone.
LF

[Michael Dixon]

That's what I was checking on wasthe extra tank. I've seen some setups that tied into the existing fuel line and had disasters. As for solonoids sticking I had it happen first time out. It was very entertaining(from the bank) Good Luck, Michael

[Liqui-Fly]

Guys Jegs has a tank by Jaz called a nitrous enrichment tank. You can run it inline with you existing tank but it provides a sump in and out as well as a return line hook up and a line to the spray. Or you can just fill it through the top and block off the sumps if you're going to run methanol.
David