OMC EFI for crossflow/looper

[B.Leonard]

Making good progress on this, to date this is the design...

I'm going to base it on a Microchip PIC18F458. It is a 40 DIP, 40 MHz, high performance RISC cpu w/ 8 built in A/D converters. I might need more channels as the system grows but for starters I'm going to do the ignition first, then fuel, and that should be enough for just ignition.

I'm going to try and use the factory trigger and sensors under the flywheel to keep costs down for the end user. There will be no plate to have to machine up for sensors and no gear tooth wheel to mount (as other systems use).

Systems for stock motors will be able to keep the stock charging system, hign perf applications could keep the hub of the stock flywheel and replace the rest with just a plate. Either way, the magneto ignition will be history (use standard 12v ign coils, msd sea doo type). No more powerpacks!

The motors won't run with the harness disconected (they'll need a battery) but who does that? :rolleyes:

I'm also thinking of an LCD that will go on the dash with info like rpm, egt and maybe a diagnostic mode that will show timing, fuel curve etc. Eventually :)

The fuel part, the system will be aimed at using the stock carbs as just air valves and have injectors in the intake manifold. It will use both a throttle position sensor and a vacuum sensor (more A/Ds for that).

Any ideas?

-BL

[BarryStrawn]

I think it would be a good idea to keep this a secret until you have a few hundred hours of successful operation or a few race wins.:)

[oldschoolltv]

if you can keep cost down I am sure you could sell these, I would be interested, Matt

keep us posted

[B.Leonard]

... a few hundred hours of successful operation or a few race wins.:)

Wow! thanks Barry, I'm flattered :o for now I got my sights set on idle or maybe just above ;) Or even less, like getting a good clean signal from those OMC sensors just spinning the crank on the bench in an empty block :)

Keeping the cost down is gonna be key. Because I'm building everything from scratch I can use parts of the original ignition I like and pitch what I don't like. The systems that are out there now you have to use all their stuff because they were designed as universal systems from the start.

-BL

[1BadAction]

I think it would be a good idea to keep this a secret until you have a few hundred hours of successful operation or a few race wins.:)

http://img289.imageshack.us/img289/5012/pointlol7uv.gif

[BarryStrawn]

OK - Maybe that was harsh. But if you are intending to sell these, then I think you should keep it quiet until you have a proven product. Otherwise, it tends to look like you are trolling for noobs to finance your learning experience. Sort of like your CNC piston business when it started. If I remember correctly, you offered them for sale before you assembled the first one into an engine.


Good luck with the project.

[B.Leonard]

If I remember correctly, you offered them for sale before you assembled the first one into an engine.

Yup, for zero profit...and they worked perfect the first time :)

-BL

[BarryStrawn]

Yup, for zero profit...and they worked perfect the first time :)

-BL

You should post some customer testimonials. Perfection is rarely achieved and I know some evidence of your work running X hundred hours, making Y horsepower and winning Z races would be good for your business.

[neveredge]

I don't think Bruce is trying to get rich off of this or even make money from it. It is just a hobby so in the end what does it matter?

At least he is trying something new.

[B.Leonard]

What business? Pure charity ...to the handicapped :D

;)

-BL

[Dukeofchippewa]

Good Luck Bruce, I'm sure you'll make it work.

[B.Mac]

You should post some customer testimonials. Perfection is rarely achieved and I know some evidence of your work running X hundred hours, making Y horsepower and winning Z races would be good for your business.

OK.......Here I am, although I hardly qualify to be called a "customer" :D
Bruce built my Looper to push my Vegas XT to 90+ without fingerports and I just got a call from the new (third) owner. If it were'nt for BL's generosity I'd still be landlocked........he doesn't work for profit, it's his hobby........I'd hate to see him if he got serious :eek:
B.MAC :D

[neveredge]

Bruce, Are you calling me a handicapped charity case?

I will agree with you if you can fix my van for free! I'll tow it over this weekend! :D

[RUDERIOT]

Making good progress on this, to date this is the design...

I'm going to base it on a Microchip PIC18F458. It is a 40 DIP, 40 MHz, high performance RISC cpu w/ 8 built in A/D converters. I might need more channels as the system grows but for starters I'm going to do the ignition first, then fuel, and that should be enough for just ignition.

I'm going to try and use the factory trigger and sensors under the flywheel to keep costs down for the end user. There will be no plate to have to machine up for sensors and no gear tooth wheel to mount (as other systems use).

Systems for stock motors will be able to keep the stock charging system, hign perf applications could keep the hub of the stock flywheel and replace the rest with just a plate. Either way, the magneto ignition will be history (use standard 12v ign coils, msd sea doo type). No more powerpacks!

The motors won't run with the harness disconected (they'll need a battery) but who does that? :rolleyes:

I'm also thinking of an LCD that will go on the dash with info like rpm, egt and maybe a diagnostic mode that will show timing, fuel curve etc. Eventually :)

The fuel part, the system will be aimed at using the stock carbs as just air valves and have injectors in the intake manifold. It will use both a throttle position sensor and a vacuum sensor (more A/Ds for that).

Any ideas?

-BL
Hi B.L.
I've been fighting my looper ignition for years & recently bought a Yamaha system to put on it. The parts were old tired saltwater junk & I'm sending them back. Anyway I would be very interested in your ignition system. I'm going to do something this winter even if it is a M.S.D. system. Please let me know.

[B.Leonard]

Yes, many people have expressed interest. There seems to be a demand for a cheaper system than what is avail now and if it can work with the stock flywheels (stock, race, V4 etc.) and trigger base (assuming they're in good working condition or CDI parts) that's even better.

This system will work with the stock charging system or as a total loss system if you desire not to run the heavy stock flywheels with the magnets. It will be independent of the charging system not tied altogether like the stock systems.

I just finished the design for the coil driver circuit. It will use high voltage switching transistors (IGBTs) like the latest stuff from MSD so it will be up with the times. I had the CPU on the dev board last night playing with it getting that setup. All the code will be developed in C allowing for a more maintainable system for future enhancements.

For now I'm focusing on just ignition. This will help guys that are just looking for a better spark to ignite all that NOS :D Then EFI later.

Hopefully I'll have something running this fall :) I'll keep you all updated, I got some pictures already.

If you have any ideas let me know, there have been several good ones already.

-BL

[PanRonnie]

will save you a lot of trubble

http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
http://www.msefi.com/
http://www.msefi.com/msinfo/index.html
http://www.bgsoflex.com/mjl/mjl_edis_summary.html

and if you have some more time there will be a future unit able
to inject sequentially and drive the ignition
personally i'm messing with a DTA unit
but i guess here the idea is to keep the cost down
which of course will not work :o know this out off personal experience

[B.Leonard]

Yeah I've read about that system.

I don't want a universal system, something more specific for this application. I also want a digital front end which they don't have (sample the inputs from the crank sensors). Ignition is touchy, there are many ways to do it. I want my system to use high volt, cap discharge coil-on-plug. Not inductive. I also want it matched to the coil I choose, that will make for an even hotter spark. That part it done, just need to order the parts.

Yeah I know it's not gonna be cheap (at least the first one :D ) but I do this for a living and applying it to an outboard is just gonna be fun :)

Here's some pics of the dev board. It's a nice unit from Matrix, very clean board, lots of pinouts and peripherals. The stock 18 pin MCU that came with it might just be enough, it's got 7 A/Ds on it. I got all the dev software on my AMD 2.2ghz HP, man what rocket! :)

-BL

[PanRonnie]

well i wish you good luck your gonna need it :D
here is a usefull tool i just bought
you will be able to make an 3 Dimensional map of EGT,CHT,IAT,AFR,MAP,RPM
of an existing engine so you will have something to tune to
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm1.php

still think you make way to many problems for your self
but then again the journy can be more satisfying then reaching the goal ;)

[B.Leonard]

Good idea on having a reference as an initial starting point.

If I can get the ignition going I can use 2 A/D channels to sample my current EGTs running on carbs. The 40 pin MCUs have enough flash that I could probably store that data there. Make a run on the dyno, retrieve the data and plot it. There's my reference for the fuel side later :)

-BL

[baja200merk]

bruce r u gonna be the frist one with a direct injected cross-tec

[1BadAction]

bruce r u gonna be the frist one with a direct injected cross-tec

thanks for reminding me about this, I knew there was a reason I didnt want to sell my flak jacket.

[baja200merk]

that is some funny chit! lol!

will a medalion tach work with my loopa

[B.Leonard]

With the price of gas the way it's been lately (and getting worse) I've been thinking of having it more for the car than the boat! It would be easy to set it up to alter fuel curves at the flick of a switch. So you could easily switch back and forth from one type of fuel to next (ie Methanol) :rolleyes:

Making good progress. I have three types of coil driver circuits. Kind of pursuing all of them to see which will give the best spark for conditions up to 10krpm. (Inductive, capacitive and various implements of both). The horizontal beam went out in my scope so that's being fixed and slowed things down for the time being.

-BL

[baja200merk]

is it on a running motor?
kevin

[cvx20]

Starting from scratch seems the hard way...There isn't some system that could be adapted? :confused:
Later JJB

[RUDERIOT]

How's it going, B.L.? Just wonderin' if you're still makin' progress on the ignition. I sure hope so & I want one for my looper this winter if you get them ready to sell. :)

[B.Leonard]

Minor delays...LOL!! Our 4th was born yesterday (Josie-Lee 8lbs). All healthy praise God.

On the EFI, had to send the scope out for adjustments. Making good progress though. The coil driver is very sensitive especially if you want to use stock style coils. The entire circuit must be built around them. Cap discharge is touchy, DC-DC hv power supply issues, which trans to use, IGBT (less power consump), NPN, darlington etc etc. It all has to be right. Also clamping circuits to keep the MCU from spikes etc. Spice is helping out alot if you guys know what that is (circuit simulator). We'll have something by the end of the year at least. When I get the scope back (next week) things will pick up again.

I'm really set on using the stock trigger and coils. I think that is key to a practical system for the average joe. They should work fine as long as they're good. It's all the stuff in between on the stock systems that causes problems. Mostly spinning the crank too fast so that the charge coils cannot produce enough voltage to drive the coils.

-BL

[RUDERIOT]

Congratulations on the new little one & thanks for the update!

[Dukeofchippewa]

Congratulations on the new little one to you and mama.

[B.Mac]

Hope all is well with you guys, just snoopin' around, tryin' ta keep up-to-date on the latest back yard engineering. :p
B.MAC :D

[B.Leonard]

Ha! Gotcha! You boatless closet S&Fer! :)

-BL

[RUDERIOT]

BL- How's the Looper ignition project coming? I haven't heard anything for a month or so & was just wondering when you think they will be ready. I'm not trying to hurry you at all, I'm just very interested in one. :D

[B.Leonard]

Minor setback with my oscilloscope. I think I'm just gonna buy a new one :rolleyes: I should then be able to finish the ignition. When it comes to this stuff the scope is like a air-compressor, it's a must have. Especially when measuring coil output which will be key. I also want to measure coil output at various rpms on the dyno to make sure we have max voltage.

Still seting up the new shop from our move to the east coast and I have 2 motors to assemble (crossflows) so I'll be busy for sure here the next couple months. I still think ignition by the end of this year is possible, then fuel next year.

My friends in the 4 -stroke world are saying I'm wasting my time and I should take a Honda-4stroke OB and turbo charge it! LOL!! They'er making 2000hp from a mild b-block chevy w/ turbos :)

-BL

[RUDERIOT]

The end of the year would be great! My motor should go 92-9500 IF I can come up with a good stable ignition. It'll turn 8500 now & after geting the ignition nailed down I plan on sprayin' it about 200h.p. worth.
There's a lot of black motors out there that need a good whoopin'. :D

[B.Leonard]

Gotta have the spark to run NOS reliably. That's what started the whole idea :)

-BL

[B.Leonard]

Here's the signal from an OMC trigger. 1.5-2v and very symmetrical! Sampling this peak from a 20MHz processor will be like hitting the side of a barn with a shotgun :D No signal conditioning needed just hook the trigger directly to the A/D ports. Sweeeet!

http://bleonard1.tripod.com/Webpics/trig_sm.jpg

-BL

[RUDERIOT]

Good deal, B.L. Keep plugin' away at it. I need one of them!

[jphii]

Corona Light? Maybe I need to switch to that from Extra. Shed a few pounds, pick up a couple mph.... Lookin good BL.

[B.Leonard]

Has anyone tried hooking an MSD unit to a stock trigger? Or know of anyone that has tried that.

Jp - Yup, Corona Light is good stuff :)

-BL

[PanRonnie]

Has anyone tried hooking an MSD unit to a stock trigger? Or know of anyone that has tried that.

Jp - Yup, Corona Light is good stuff :)

-BL
yep it sure is lonely out there :cool:

[littlewing776]

i hope you get this to work my name is tony i work a perfomance marine columbus ms all the guys are pulling for you to make this work if i can help you in amy way let me know. i would love for you to call me and tell me more on the system you are trying to make. call me a t work 662 3272587 i have lots of old parts that i could send you if you need them. like coils triggers. when you get this system to work i want one. and we can help you with the cost of making it if you would tell will dupler about this i know he could help you in some way or the other thanks and GOD bless tony holt congratulations on the new baby.

[B.Leonard]

The only parts I've had to buy have been development tools so far. I had to buy a probe to handle 40,000+ volts for my scope ($600). I'll need that to make sure we are indeed getting the right voltage to the plugs.

I have an old spare crossflow tied to my drill press. I'm spinning it with just the crank, trigger and flywheel. This will enable me to complete the CPU code to find the peaks on those signals from the trigger and convert them to digital square wave TTL signals.

Once that's done, this old flow is now free of those clumsey old analog powerpacks forever! Breakout the 8mm wire, you're gonna NEED it now, not just for looks anymore :)

-BL

[Bill Rogers]

Bruce –

How many of the sensor signals from the timer base will you be using? Seems like 1 is all you really need (assuming your goal is to find crankshaft position).

What will finding the peaks do for you? Doesn’t peak amplitude and phase vary with RPM?

Wouldn’t a conversion to the frequency domain (fourier transform) give you phase angle information that will correspond directly with crankshaft position? Then you can fire each of the six plugs at exactly the correct crankshaft position – eliminating cylinder-to-cylinder variations. Plus you could fire each plug multiple times (a la MSD) for say 20 degrees of rotation.

And in the FWIW department, I use an inexpensive clamp-on secondary probe that gives very nice spark signatures (see attachments for examples). I compared the accuracy to a high-priced Tek probe and it was right on the money.

Re: your question about triggering an MSC - I have an MSD 6A on the bench right now. If I get a chance this weekend, I’ll check it out and tell you exactly what kind of signal it takes to trigger it.

Looks like you’re doing some interesting things and having fun. Let me know if I can help. Ain’t life grand?

[B.Leonard]

Not enough data to do FT. At cranking speeds you need a trigger for every cyl or teeth on the flywheel. I would need to jump up to a DSPic or a DSP (CPU) if I wanted to do signal processing. Something that had had DSP support and more space. Way over kill though. I like the way you think though Bill, please sit up front from now on :D ;) ;)

Each trigger will drive an A/D port on my PIC. The PIC16F88 has 7 A/Ds each which can sample up 2-6 microseconds. Thats about 1000 samples for each 1ms pulse from the trigger. That means I can slice that pulse into 1000 "readings" and take the highest reading as the peak. The peak is where you want to fire the coil. Of course I'll be sampling all 6 triggers at once but I doubt I need more CPU to do it. I can correct for bad placement of the factory triggers in the software with some delays, no big deal.

More than enough time to do mltiple sparks per firing. That's what I have planned.

The Tek probe was expensive but has a high resale :) I should get some readings on the stock ignition this wekend.

-BL

[Bill Rogers]

making my way to the front of the class ... :)

Just set up a little test - using the magnetic pickup input on the MSD 6A, all it takes is a pulse of about 250mV amplitude to trigger it. It has a very high input impedance too - won't be any loading issues on the factory trigger. So I can say with near certainty that the factory trigger will fire an MSD ignition.

Another question - do you plan to use the factory stator or some kind of an inverter for cap charging?

[B.Leonard]

I talked to the boys at MSD and they said .3-.4v min 4v max rising edge will trigger their boxes but they weren't very certain. Certainly no data sheet available. I don't know what would happen under varying conditions or high rpm.

I need the square wave for the EFI side so I'm still gonna do the sampling. It will also help with getting the timing exact for each cyl. and provide a reliable 4v signal for the CDI.

I'm not going to use anything in the stator. That will stay for charging system only. I won't use the charge coils. I'm gonna build my own HV DC/DC converter for the CDI (actually I have an analog guy at work looking into it, it's not simple by any means, especially when you get up to 450-500v). I may use a COTS CDI in the mean time.

-BL

[B.Leonard]

This motor I'm using to test on had the early style crank, the one that flops to one side in a block if you ever take the time to trial assemble without rings and seals. At 1500rpm on the drill press the wobble nearly shakes the block of my fixture! Imagine the vibes this thing would make at 6-7k rpm!

It also had an even fire trigger! No wonder it has 2 seized holes! I picked it up complete for $100. I think the trigger could be an early looper piece, not sure though, the plugs are the same as a standard flow trigger.

The output from the trigger is up to 3.75v @1500rpm.

-BL

[B.Leonard]

Hooked it up to the test rat spinning 1500rpm on the test fixture (drill press). Got the code in place to sample the analog signal from the trigger through the analog/digital converters every 20 micro seconds.

Here you can see the signal from the trigger on the bottom channel and the square wave samples at the peak on the top channel. The CPU is basically taking a voltage reading on the input signal every 20us. I then take the highest reading as the peak. We now have converted the OMC electronics to to digital! From here I can fire the ignition and the injector for any cyl in any imaginable configuration, simply a matter of software now :)

http://bleonard1.tripod.com/Webpics/IMG_3495_sm.jpg

-BL

[B.Leonard]

The weight of the motor actually keeps the belt tight!

http://bleonard1.tripod.com/Webpics/IMG_3496_sm.jpg

-BL

[B.Leonard]

Only AMD for me baby! :D Gettin it done, fast...

http://bleonard1.tripod.com/Webpics/IMG_3497_sm.jpg

-BL

[B.Leonard]

Here you can see the samples at the peak. Notice how the peak of the trigger input looks more like a smooth hill zoomed in at this resolution! Those digital samles are 20us apart, plenty of speed to sample well up to 10k rpm + :)

Actually, the CPU is sampling over the entire spectrum. I'm just outputing at the peak. Most of the samples are just dropped until the peak is found. When the peak is found (or sometime before), we go to work for that cylinder (spark, fuel etc.).

http://bleonard1.tripod.com/Webpics/IMG_3498_sm.jpg

-BL

[B.Leonard]

Microchip PIC16F88 w/ built in A/Ds. I'll probably upgrade to to 40 pin when I get the injectors hooked up. Even more power :)

The OMC crossflow/looper has just stepped into the digital age! :)

http://bleonard1.tripod.com/Webpics/IMG_3499_sm.jpg

-BL

[Charlie M]

Why not remove the stator completely and turn that flywheel into a pulley and run an external alternator? Will the stock 6-9 amp charging system even have enough for your setup?

[B.Leonard]

Depends on the rpm you're turning if it will carry it. 9 amp system should handle it for under 5k rpm. Over that and you'll be drawing off the battery. External alternator would be neat since you wouldn't need the stator at all then. But I'm trying to keep it a plug-n-play system as much as possible for the average performance boat. There are other EFI systems that need major parts, this one will plug in with the exception of getting the injectors mounted. Same flywheel, trigger, coils, carbs (for air only) and linkage.

-BL

[B.Leonard]

Their Pro-Digital boxes (the 3 channel jet-ski/snow sled box) require a 12v square wave. This is why a stock trigger will not fire an MSD box.

Their 6A boxes will trigger on a 5v signal and would work but running 6 of those big 6A boxes would be a bit hard on space.

So the digital conversion is a must to kick an MSD pro box with a stock trigger.

-BL

[baja200merk]

forget that crossflow! get that loopa off the shelf and get to work on the system fo that!

kevin

[B.Leonard]

Don't be eyeing the inventory now ;) That's lab rat 2, it's time is coming :D

That flow has a looper trigger in it. That should count for something ;)

-BL

[cvx20]

So far,
As I am understanding it, stock OMC pick-up analog signal is converted to digital (ala the Bruce Box) then this digital trigger signal will used to fire a pair of MSD Pro digital (3cyl) ignition systems...

what's the current draw above 5K?? 7k or 9k???

Looks good so far!

Later JJB

[SRP71]

Looking good Bruce, Can't wait to see one on my old crossflow. ;) I like the pulley setup on the flywheel. All I would need is a small alt and my stereo system and Batts would be happy.

Keep up the good work.

BTW we now have 3" of snow on the ground and the river is icing over, and more snow on the way,,,Man I hate winter. :mad:

Glad I can surf over to S&F to get my fix.. :D

[B.Leonard]

I've done a ton of research on those and the key to a high voltage CDI is generating primary voltage around 450-550v. The switching circuit is cake to build. The hard part is building the high voltage DC/DC converter to make 500v from 12v.

Crane's Hi-6 was the first to use a microprocessor. The MSD box (pro dig 3 channel) is nice and small and accepted as the standard. Jacobs and few others make drivers as well.

You could drive any of them from the "Bruce box". They actually make a box that will interface some low volt triggers to their coil driver box. But I still need the digital conversion to handle the EFI portion.

I doubt you could use the stock coils since they were only designed for 200v but the MSD coils are not that big of a deal to retrofit. They're nice and small as well.

-BL

[Bill Rogers]

Why not just lift the DC-DC section from an MSD 6? It's reliable, it will work down to about 7.5V, and it has all the current-limit issues already sorted out.

[B.Leonard]

If it's not integrated, can be isolated and isn't tied to the switching portion for some reason, you might have something there :cool: They're all over e-bay cheap.

I'll bet one 6A supply would have enough juice for 3 cyl to 10k rpm. Then just use two of them, one on each bank. Then build your own switching section for mult channels. Break out the dremel cutting wheels :D

If it worked it might make production slow though unless they agreed to sell you the supplies separate. I doubt they would unless the order was huge.

I'm migrating the current code to a 40mhz processor this weekend. This one has enough I/O pins for ignition, injectors, manifold psi, EGTs and also some EEPROM to hold max/last run values for RPM and EGTs (recall feature), better UART section for a terminal/laptop, hardware multipliers (faster fuel curve computations) and more :)

-BL

[Bill Rogers]

Let me offer a little advice on coils.

I've done a lot of pack/switchbox and coil testing over the years (have a library of waveforms if you're interested), and the coils that stand out from the crowd are the OMC plug-in coils made by Prufrex (Germany). In fact, the last Sierra 582508 replacements I bought are the good Prufrex brand. They can be identified by the logo (see attachment)

I suggest you do your initial testing with these coils. I doubt you'll find a need for any better coil.

[B.Leonard]

I'll keep that in mind Bill.

Just wondering how long that 200v primary winding is gonna take 500v before it shorts. They are only 1.3 ohms so who knows.

I'd like to take the M out of the "MSD" if I could. Only one spark is nec, the others just stress everything out if you ask me :rolleyes:

-BL

[Bill Rogers]

The primary resistance of the prufrex 582508 is 0.1 +/- 0.05 ohms

Far as the voltage spec is concerned, it's their WZ48/53 coil modified to fit OMC. It will most definitely handle the output of an MSD. Contact them directly to verify...

I agree on the M part of the MSD - the multiple sparks are only of value at low rpm. The MSD 6 switches from multiple to single sparks at about 3000 rpm.

[B.Leonard]

I think MSD wants 1.3-1.2 ohms. Not sure though, I'll have to call 'em again.

Check out the wave forms using the new probe. Not too shabby for a stock OMC ignition! 31.4k at the plug, 544v primary! That was a max reading at 1000rpm using a CDI stator. Thats the motor on my Lund, it has always run like champ :) If only it could muster that at 7k rpm :p

http://bleonard1.tripod.com/Webpics/stock_1.jpg

primary...

http://bleonard1.tripod.com/Webpics/stock_2.jpg

-BL

[RUDERIOT]

Bruce glad to see all the progress!! I need one of them desperately & come spring ( May ) I'd be glad to test one on a looper that'll turn 8500 currently with o.m.c.ignition. Of course I'd still pay you for it if I kept it! I would need the ignition only as I'm going to run either 6 crossflow 2 barrels ( 1.375s ) or maybe 12 Mikunie 44 m.ms. I think it's to the point that more carb size would help but I do kinda hate the thought of trying to tune 12 miks. on a progressive linkage setup. But I bet it'd work great! :eek:

[B.Leonard]

By then it should have quite a few hours on the dyno. While you're chopping 10-15 cords of wood to survive the winter :D

Don't spend too much time tuning those carbs, I'm sending an intake out right now to be drilled/welded for injectors. The fuel side is almost done. It would be a nice match for all that added air intake you're planning :)

I should have a running motor over Christmas (ignition only). Then off to board layout after I add a power filter and a few other discretes and some connectors. The box will be the same just different software for the fuel side. Then start rich and work down.

-BL

[B.Leonard]

12v square wave out. MSD ready or the box of your choice :D

http://bleonard1.tripod.com/Webpics/12vout.jpg

-BL

[B.Leonard]

Ok, I now have;

- Ability to work with stock trigger.
- Ability to trigger MSD and other aftermarket boxes.
- Ability to correct, dynamically (while running), bad triggers and individual cyl timing.
- Ability to work with any manufacturer's trigger Merc, Yamaha, OMC etc.
- DSP (Digital Signal Processing) of trigger inputs with accuracy to one degree or less up to 10k rpm (150K samples per second on each cyl).
- Instant cylinder firing at cranking speed, no need for motor to turn a specific number of degrees.

Planned;
- USB connectivity to laptop. This will enable the use of custom software to adjust fuel map, ignition, read EGTs and other.

- How about wireless connectivity!?! Imagine being able to adjust the fuel map, timing and read EGTs from your laptop while someone is driving the boat! No need for the driver to watch and adjust gauges as he drives. Would that be a useful feature? I would probably use 802.11 and need an external antenae for both Tx and Rx (for up to a mile) but it would be REALY neat. It would probably eliminate the need to record data to EEPROM in the CPU on the boat since you could save the real time data directly to the PC, similar to the way a dyno saves a "run".

What'd ya think?

-BL

[Lockjaw]

Imagine how many people you could sabotage at races with wireless. :eek:

I can already hear it now, man I don't know what is wrong with it, I had it tuned perfectly yesterday. :D :D :D

Hey I would be happy to test too. Basically stock engine with reeds, heads and relieved exhaust. ;)

[sidewinderboats]

An news on the injector boss installation? Where did you place them and on what angle to air flow?

I built and installed one of the Megasquirt diy systems, great PC tuning tool on a twin turbo small block. Now I can't wait to digitally inject a pair of 3.6 V8's.

I was thinking about 2 injectors per for oil and fuel so I could adjust mixture with 2 fuel maps. Megasquirt provides this but its a batchfire design. I wonder if Batch is as good as sequential for fuel injection considering the RPM and 2 stroke vrs 4. I understand on a 4 stroke it doesnt matter after 3000 rpm.

[B.Leonard]

Decided to go with glue in pre-formed pockets. I have two motors I plan to test on, a 2.6 crossflow and and a '92 200GT 3.0 looper. The crossflow is the hardest because the carb shafts are horizontal (linkage is in the way). A small mod to the linkage is needed to get the injectors just under the carb pointing into the reed cage. Thought about putting them in the side covers but I think that might be too close to the port (not enough time to atomize and may starve the crankcase of oil). Still have yet to hook up the injectors on the 2.6. Been spending a lot of time on the dyno getting HP/BSFC data for the maps. My stock test rat 235 has pulled over 220hp at the prop several times lately :D (220@6k peak torq@4300) That motor is 25 yrs old and only has shaved heads, never been apart!

That is a neat idea about the dual maps. My first impression is over complexity of multiple injectors and support equip (pump, regulator, tank filters etc.). Good idea though, I like it.

Batch fire is typical of "universal" systems. I think a 2-stroke needs a more precise system. They're good enough for a 4s but a 4s will rev no matter how fat the fuel curve is.

-BL

[sidewinderboats]

The dual table code is a feature in the Megasquirt code. Its free source code and it may provide some ideas. I thought it would be good with the MAP sensor to richen the oil mix under load. Otherwise you can richen the mix based on RPM.

The sample code also has several ignition maps that could be useful.

I'm wondering about injector placement. Its for a V8 looper and like you I intended to mount the injectors between the throttle body and the reed cage in a spacer or in the throttle body behind the butterfly. I am wondering if the injector can go there or should it go in the intake behind the reeds? I was concerned that the spray pattern at right angles to the airflow in the throttle body would be less effective than spraying towards the reeds.

I know where to get the injector bungs and how to mount them but can you clarify where to mount them and on what angle to the air flow?

Also, Is there a way to use EGT per cylinder? I was thinking that the casting under the ignition coils may not be water jacketed and I could drill right through the casting and into the exhaust flow and mount the thermocouple without going through water. The casting under the coils looks like the best location.
The other option is to use Cylinder Head Temp Probes under the spark plugs but these react slower.

Any thoughts?

[B.Leonard]

Thanks, but I'm going to use my own BSFC numbers for the maps.

I'd angle the injector as much away from walls in the intake track as possible. Aim them downstream into the reed cage.

I don't think staying on the crankcase side of the reeds will buy you much except at low speeds. At low speeds you may get some condensation of fuel off the reeds if they are in front but by the same token the oil may cushion the opening/closing at those speeds when they actually close against the cage. You really don't have many options for placement unless you intend to redesign much of the outside of the motor, especially for a small motor like the 2.6 where everything is real tight and small, and that is exactly the idea, to keep the mods/new parts as few as possible.

My opinion on EGTs is that the info they provide is too slow to be used in real time (the way automotive systems use Ox sensors in a closed loop system) or for tuning except for basic reference. You simply can't tune by them alone. I intend to do final map adjustments by how the pistons/plugs look not by some gauge. Multiple EGTs would be such a pain, especially if the CPU had to sample those on top of everything else it's going to be doing.

If the system is working as designed you can throw out the EGTs altogether.

-BL

[sidewinderboats]

Thanks, They are 3.6, not 2.6

[B.Leonard]

Yeah I know. I was merely using the 2.6 as an example of a motor where there are few options because the motor is physically so small compared to the 3.0 or 3.6. I like the space idea but you shouldn't need to do that. You may have to use a flex hose system.

-BL

[baja200merk]

so the efi runs?

[B.Leonard]

Hold your horses. It's still in the lab. But it is passing all the tests :)

Need the BSFC data for the map and that is what I'm doing now while my budget licks it's wounds from Christmas :D

-BL

[sidewinderboats]

Here is a handy little calculator somebody sent me.......



Same person also recommended using 0.65 bsfc for a 2 stroke........




http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm

[Forkin' Crazy]

Practice is measured in hours; victory is measured in seconds

And longevity is measured in years. :o

[B.Leonard]

Yeah there are many injectore "sizing" formulas. It's getting the bsfc for a particular point in a map that takes all the work and testing.

Been making some serious progress lately. I'll have a system ready to go on the dyno soon. I'm working on a new test fixture. The drill press has reached it's limits. I now need variable speed and the ability to spin to 5-6k to fully test. Looking into some DC treadmill motors to run it.


Paul - you may have a point, might be time for a change, how 'bout this one instead...

It is time for us to stand and cheer for the doer,
the achiever, the one who recognizes the challenge
and does something about it.
- Vince Lombardi

;)

-BL

[baja200merk]

so what kind of warrentee is my looper EFI system going to come with? :D

[B.Leonard]

Well you get what you pay for... how much have you invested to date? :D

-BL

[1BadAction]

so what kind of warrentee is my looper EFI system going to come with? :D

if it breaks im sure he'll get you another one by the 1st of Septober.

[RUDERIOT]

Just wondering how things are going. I'm deep into the planing of next years combination & at the top of the list is an ignition that is stout enough to let my Looper turn at least 9300 with a big load of Goodman Nitrous. I believe that the motor is up to the challenge & that the currant O.M.C. ignition, with a Rapair 4 drive stator & unlimited boxes is the limiting factor. It'll turn a 24'' Yamaha 8550 in 700' on the motor currently ( no nitrious ), but then "noses over" and wont pull any more.
I am running up against a wall, time wise & must have a system ready to start assembly & testing by 4-1-06.
I'm not trying to hurry, rush or coerse you in any way, but if I can't have your system in my hands by then I'll have to buy an M.S.D. system, even though I really don't want to.
Please let me know what you think.

[B.Leonard]

Maybe by April, can't say for sure. I'm sure I'll have the ignition on a running motor by then but time on the water will be minimal.

A lot of time is going into being able to run with stock components. A full race (or near) motor doesn't use those parts. There are many systems (universal etc) that can be adapted when you have no constraints. Also, EFI is my goal not just ignition. That's a bunch more work.

My system is working and working realy well. Some of the stuff it can do is really amazing ie full spark at a 1/4 turn of the flywheel by hand, adapting to almost any brand outboard, 1 degree timing accuracy up to 10krpm.... and more that I don't want to talk about here :) All using the latest hardware/software in the industry.

Definitely sounds like ignition problems and the NOS will just make it worse.
Best of luck to ya, keep us updated!

-BL

[kimswang]

Whatever happend to this system?

[1BadAction]

Whatever happend to this system?

its going to be released by the first of septober :D :D

[neveredge]

BL got a partner who convinced him to get into drag car ignition systems so he dropped all the boat stuff.

From what I have seen the car stuff is working out. They are trying to bring a system to market.

I think Madman can put parts together to make an efi for a crossflow as one of his intakes uses the same mounting pattern as the crossflow carbs do (meaning you can bolt the throttle bodies on a stock X-flow intake). I don't think he has ever done one before though.

[B.Leonard]

The system is finished and will be avail this summer. It is a distributor less ignition Called Variable Spark Injection (VSI). It does not do fuel, there are many systems that do fuel, the best being the FAST box from Comp Cams of which VSI is aimed at for ignition. VSI does both auto and marine including outboard. It is the most powerful ignition you can buy and it is distributor less. VSI can control all aspects of the ignition, spark power, # of sparks, rpm limit, timing, and more all programable via a laptop. It can make more power than an MSD 10 and do it up to 20k rpm. It is perfect for outboards using lots of nitrous! No other system like it ever. More to come, email me for more info.

-BL

[Forkin' Crazy]

Sounds like a sales pitch from a non supporting vendor. :o

[kimswang]

The system is finished and will be avail this summer. It is a distributor less ignition Called Variable Spark Injection (VSI). It does not do fuel, there are many systems that do fuel, the best being the FAST box from Comp Cams of which VSI is aimed at for ignition. VSI does both auto and marine including outboard.
-BL

Got any test result from any outboard? Interested in a fuel & ignition system for three V8's, but I want to see test results.

[twig]

Any more news on ignition??

[RogerH]

BL,
I'd appreciate hearing more about your VSI (Variable Spark Injection) system. I attempted some time ago to find DIS systems that I could adapt to outboards. I found five that were quite diverse. PVL System Integrators, MZB - lightning, Altronics, Lightspeed Engineering - PlasmaCDI, and IMFsoft Ltd. Oops, I think MSD has one too - make that 6.

In general, they were quite expensive. A trigger system (source) is vital to all of them. Some are not complete ignitions but just controllers. A few could not handle the RPM range of the modified outboards. From this I would conclude that a good outboard system is much more than a controller, but the trigger and coil choice is critical to success. The controller is somewhat "easy". I think the trigger is the tough part, especially integrating it across the various outboards currently being raced.

I do feel the advantages of DIS systems (timing on a per cylinder base and stored / switchable timing programs, etc..) will be superior to today's best ignitions. Programmable DIS is definitely a Pro Class item in my mind's eye.

Good subject for further thought and discussion.

Roger Hinsdale

[RUDERIOT]

Don't forget the new Wolfe system. It runs the e.f.i. and contains a completely adjustable ignition.

[twig]

If I had that sort of money I would just go Motec!!

[B.Leonard]

VSI has been out for automotive now for two years. We have since downsized the box quite a bit.

The outboard version is almost ready. It requires it's own trigger system also. The reason for this is accuracy. The stock triggers were junk and working with them was making the system inaccurate. However the VSI trigger system only uses two sensors. You don't need a sensor for every cyl like a converted SeaDoo MSD system so mounting two sensors is a breeze.

The timing is all adjustable via a laptop, no moving trigger/sensors. It is also modular with respect to the power supplies so you can run from one to six power supplies (one for each cyl) to get up to 20k rpm with up to 600v primary to the coils! That will light ANY mixture. A typical 9-10k rpm outboard will require only two power supplies (both are in the same box).

The automotive guys love it because it lights initial over-rich mixtures and this allows for easy adjustments to the fuel MAP when first cutting in a system. Most other ignitions miss and screw up the O2 sensor and the whole process, confusing the user and the fuel ECU as to what is actually happening.

When it comes to brute power (up to 600v primary), adjustability and accuracy, nothing comes close to VSI.

Here is a pic of the magnets embedded in a crossflow flywheel for the trigger system. You then mount the two sensors right underneath the magnets. One sensor is the trigger the other is the sync for #1.

-BL

[B.Leonard]

Version 3.0 now has;

- 10 injector drivers (configurable as batch or sequential)
- 10 coil drivers (each capable of up to 600v primary)
- completely adjustable timing curves (via laptop while running) from 0-10k rpm in 50 rpm increments
- completely adjustable fuel curves 0-10k rpm
- integrated axillary channels for nitrous and other "extras" controllable from anywhere in the rpm band
- 32 bit processor (MIPS core yeah baby! :D)

and last but not least, all crammed into a box 1" shorter than V2 (total length is now 8")

And yes, it will work on an outboard :) However it is still not for sale and this is not an advertisement, just an update :)

Coming soon: CompactFlash interface to store fuel and ignition curves :)

-BL

[kimswang]

Version 3.0 now has;

- 10 injector drivers (configurable as batch or sequential)
- 10 coil drivers (each capable of up to 600v primary)
- completely adjustable timing curves (via laptop while running) from 0-10k rpm in 50 rpm increments
- completely adjustable fuel curves 0-10k rpm
- integrated axillary channels for nitrous and other "extras" controllable from anywhere in the rpm band
- 32 bit processor (MIPS core yeah baby! :D)

and last but not least, all crammed into a box 1" shorter than V2 (total length is now 8")

And yes, it will work on an outboard :) However it is still not for sale and this is not an advertisement, just an update :)

Coming soon: CompactFlash interface to store fuel and ignition curves :)

-BL

Please correct me if I am wrong but I am reading this and understand this box will control fuel as well as ignition? Does it take a rocket scientist to hook it up? What kind of other mods do you recommend to take full advantage of this system? I am looking to have my three V8's rebuildt by Gordon this winter and adding that box might get me where I want to go; easy start, awesome throttle response, 400+ HP @ 6500RPM, better fuel economy, longlivety, easy maintenance, and ability to troll all day long. Think there is a chance?

[B.Leonard]

Yes both ignition and fuel. All integrated into one box.

That's why its fan cooled. It generates on its own what is normally generated by the motor under the flywheel in a stock system but can produce 3x the power of the MSD jet-ski boxs. Plus have all the timing configurable from a laptop (timing curves).

The power is also adjustable at any RPM. For example, you can set it to produce 3 sparks at 200v (primary) and then switch to 2 sparks at 300v primary at 1500rpm and then say 400v at anything above 2500 rpm. All variable and all controlled from a laptop even while the motor is running. No other ignition in the world can do that.

I've found that the stock OMC coils can only take about 400v primary. After that its a waste of power, although the box can generate up to 600v primary if you run a better coil that can take advantage of it.

The 10 channels allows it to be used on V10s. Outboard configurations (2 stroke) is a simple changing of the firing order and cylinder amount. It also has twin power supplies (internal) for the outboard configuration. A 4 stroke only needs one unless its turning serious rpm (over 10k).

-BL

[1BadAction]

So Bruce, when are you going to finally tell these guys that the ECU you claim to "make" is just a megasquirt kit [ http://www.megasquirt.info and http://www.bgsoflex.com/v22/msv22.html ] with a nice case? or is that actually one of Rob Freyvogel's now defunct VSI boxes? (it looks identical) Either way, congrats on assembling and tuning an EFI box. that is an accomplishment in itself, you don't need to overstate it to look important...

[B.Leonard]

VSI V3 is not a combination of of-the shelf stuff. No other system fuel or ignition does all that anyway. All designed from scratch to be an all-in-one ECU with no limit on performance.

Rob is running a VSI V2 box (ignition only) on his Pontiac that by the way, just set the world record in the Monster Mile. 1900 rear wheel HP twin turbo charged BBC.

-BL

[BarryStrawn]

How many amps does it draw in the V6 outboard configuration with fuel and spark?

[Instigator]

environment with that biggg asss vent in the end of the housing :p

[1BadAction]

VSI V3 is not a combination of of-the shelf stuff. No other system fuel or ignition does all that anyway. All designed from scratch to be an all-in-one ECU with no limit on performance.

Rob is running a VSI V2 box (ignition only) on his Pontiac that by the way, just set the world record in the Monster Mile. 1900 rear wheel HP twin turbo charged BBC.

-BL
you mean 1120hp? http://www.onebadpontiac.com/ which, even though 1100hp a ton of power, is pretty poor performing for 496ci and twins at 30psi on fuel that is roughly 108 octane.

and the fact is, VSI, no matter V2 or V3, is not YOUR design, its someone elses that you are trying to take credit for. (hmmm, im getting deja-vu) :rolleyes:

[B.Leonard]

That depends on how you use it. If you set it to produce max power at all times it will draw up to 70 amps at 10k rpm! Proof that it is making power (takes power to make power), that is a lot of sparks. An MSD 7 or 10 will draw a meesly 9-12amps at max. The Injectors current draw would depend on the map (how long the injectors were on). The next version will use "injector pulsing" to conserve power on the fuel side (similar to MoTec units).

At low power (ignition side) it will consume as little as 5-8 amps (estimated). So you can configure it however you intend to use it. For a drag racer making one run on the bottle or max boost, you set it for max power. For the performance boater with a small charging system you can configure it to pull low power and then switch to high power at a particular rpm or have it switched from an external switch (like a throttle position sensor). All configurable from any PC via serial port. On say an old crossflow with a 9a charging system I would set it at 200v from 0-6k and then 400v 6k and up. Multi spark up to about 1k rpm (multi sparks consume multiple power).

There's no way to heat sink that kind of power generation (its making up to 600v on a 12v input) and seal up the box so a fan is required. You're just gonna have to find a dry spot on the boat for marine applications :D


-BL

[sidewinderboats]

This is the feature list for the new megasquirt 3. It looks like it will work on a 7.5 k rpm 2 stroke. I used the original megasquirt on a twin turbo inboard and would like to put one on my 3.6 v8. The controller won't be ready till spring but this should be enough time to find the mechanical injection parts. Not bad for 500 to 700 bucks

CPU - 144 pin MC9S12XEP100
Single box pre-assembled non-DIY design, likely 3 ampseal connectors, plus USB/serial
8x hi-z fuel
8x logic spark
8x medium current PWM outputs
8x low current outputs for relay drive
8x digital inputs
CAN
stepper idle
Improved VR input support via DSP
Knock sense via DSP
Analogue inputs:
-TPS
-EGO x 2
-On board 1 bar map sensor for realtime Baro Correction
-On Board 4 bar Map sensor
-Extra Input for another MAP sensor e.g. Exhaust back pressure
-Coolant temp
-Air temp (Maybe 2 of these?)
-8 spare inputs

[B.Leonard]

From what I hear the Megasquirt is a good box for fuel control. However it does not do ignition other than provide a trigger wire to another system if I am correct.

The fuel side is much simpler than the ignition side of an ECU, timing is not that critical and there is no such thing as timing creep and advance curves to worry about. If an injector fires 1 milisecond early its no big deal, if a distributer less ignition does that it things go boooooom quick! Also the hardware is much simpler, no high voltage analog voodo electronics :cool:

That is a 16 bit CPU. The FAST box is also good but twice the price. It doesn't do spark either.

-BL

[sidewinderboats]

it supports coil near plugs with 8 outputs

[sidewinderboats]

the old version Microsquirt has 2 logic outputs but the new V3 is going to have 8. I imagine you could use 2 of the Bosch 4 channel igniters.

this is the description from the MS website

For four-cylinder applications using a MicroSquirt<SUP>®</SUP> controller with 4 COP (coil-on-plug) coils, an excellent ignition driving solution is the Bosch 0 227 100 211 4-channel igniter. (Note that you cannot 'direct drive' more than two coils with MicroSquirt<SUP>®</SUP> EFI controller, see: MicroSquirt<SUP>®</SUP> Direct Coil Control (http://www.microsquirt.info/dcoil.htm))

[bigbore]

Geter done buddy,let us now when u r comfortable wth it.:cool:

[B.Leonard]

the old version Microsquirt has 2 logic outputs but the new V3 is going to have 8. I imagine you could use 2 of the Bosch 4 channel igniters.

Ok, that is a very mild ignition similar to what the OEMs use where they run 12v to a coil on plug. It works good for stock or mildly modified motors.

The stock ignition on an outboard is fairly high performance in comparison. Its a CDI type ignition and runs 200-250v to the coil which is nearly right on the plug. The problem is that when the motor is revved to fast the coils under the flywheel cannot produce the required primary voltage. Also they suffer from poor sensors/triggers and poor quality control in earlier motors.

CDI is the way to go, don't be mislead by some people who say a dwell system is the way to go because the spark is longer in duration. Maybe compared to a cheap MSD system but not all CDI systems have short pulses. VSI is CDI with extremely long spark duration.

Big Bore - :thumbsup:


-BL

[sidewinderboats]

thanks for the feedback.

[PanRonnie]

board version 2.2 and 3 can already handle a V12 ignition with the
ms extra code http://www.msextra.com/manuals/MS_Extra_Ignition_Hardware_Manual.htm#wheeldecr
http://www.msextra.com/manuals/MS_Extra_Manual_Index.htm
wat it will not do is sequentieel injection (crankcase injected)
i have 2 units
version 2,2 with the extra code but set up to run off the tacho pulse
version 3,3 with the extra code set up to read a tooth wheel with a VR sensor
i hope finally to get this winter to do some work with the 2,2
now i finisched a testtank for the outboard and have the plumbing ready for the land and sea dyno
but keeping the compagny alive is a little bit more important now
:leaving:

[B.Leonard]

In order to do crank case injection or direct port injection the ECU must be able to control the injectors with real time accuracy and have them run individually. You can't run them in groups (batch). Batch systems do that to reduce complexity but the less control over the injectors you have the further upstream they must be moved. The most simple system being one throttle body injector (like GMs TBI). You can tell the MS is batch by the number of injector drivers they have on that rail in the picture. Its still a very good system from what I'm hearing from the field.

We were running into problems with VSI V1 that ran off a tach like pulse from the FAST box. Every now and then a pulse would be missing and throw the entire system off. Ever since we use our own sensors (V2 and V3).

-BL

[PanRonnie]

wat ever happened to your original design
beatifull pictures of the alumiunium case but i would rather see wat,s inside
your website seems to be not working
can you post a link of the tuning software

[B.Leonard]

This is the original design. It all started out on this very thread! It has just evolved over 3 yrs of solid development. The first design was pretty big (14" long box, twin power supplies) then V2 came along with a 9" box and one single h.o. power supply. Now V3 has twin supplies (either standard or h.o), 10 individual injector drivers and is an inch shorter!

I had to get the ignition side done first because it is the hardest without a doubt. That is why there are so few real distributor less CDI systems out there (most are proprietary systems for race teams only) The fuel side is much easier HW/SW wise but requires a much longer tuning period on the dyno and/or in the field. Now that the ignition side is finished and has thousands of hours of run time on it, time to focus on the fuel side.

I don't have any V2 boxes to pull apart they are all in the field at this time. The V3 board is a work of art and just came out of CAD. It is going to fab this week or next. I'll post pictures when I get one populated.

-BL

[B.Leonard]

The web site is not active because nothing is for sale right now and won't be until it's 110% tried and true.

All the software is on chip, there is nothing to download, no links to follow and install, and best of all no Microsoft of anything is required! :cheers: You can use any laptop Windows or Linux, anything that has a serial terminal (say Tera Term or Hyper Term etc.). Simply plug into the box, and all adjustments are made using this ascii terminal. Its not as fluffy and has no fuzzy buttons etc. Its alll function. I'm going to try and keep it that way for V3 but GUI interfaces are the norm for EFI adjustments so this might change. We'll see.

-BL

[chuckanthony]

Have you gotten anywhere with this yet?

[neveredge]

Yes he has, be patient, it's coming along soon.

[Forkin' Crazy]

Yes he has, be patient, it's coming along soon.

My patients ran out long ago. This thread, the first post, is going on 5 years old! :o

[B.Leonard]

Well as a matter fact.... VSI is in production. There are two protoypes on the water now, a V6 235 OMC and a Mercruiser 454. Laker will be running one on his mod V4 looper this spring. He is looking forward to getting his idle back. Now he has to run fixed max timing with the MSD setup. He's also looking forward to being able to run any advance curve imaginable.

The current system is ignition only. I decided to draw the line there in order to get units to market to people who have been nagging me they want a better ignition now. In the mean time I am doing the fuel side, adding in a dash mounted touch screen, GPS, WiFi and CompactFlash! You will be able to store curves and maps on CompactFlash (and run data), the GPS will enable speed and time to be measured at any point and the WiFi will enable the unit to accessed from outside the boat to make adjustments. The touch screen will allow changes/adjustments to fuel and ignition without a laptop sliding around on the seat or floor. So a ton of work ahead but now that the platform is in place, adding to it is much easier.

By the end of this year I should have a prototype with fuel capability. :thumbsup:

-BL

[Laker]

Laker will be running one on his mod V4 looper this spring. He is looking forward to getting his idle back. Now he has to run fixed max timing with the MSD setup. He's also looking forward to being able to run any advance curve imaginable.
-BL

Laker will be running one Only if it shows up!
The Power tour guys know how hard I have been on the stock, Modified production, and MSD Ignitions in past years.
The list of parts that have been Exploded, melted and simply wrecked in an effort to build a strong and reliable ignition that will fire ALOT Of compression yet hold up to our chain marathon runs has been daunting at times.

IF the VSI Can stand up to the beatings while being programmable... It could be a very good thing. If not... I will be taking a video of the box being run over by my truck and post it for the world to see. :reddevil:

[jphii]

Laker, I can't believe you haven't adapted a Yamaha ignition yet. That said, I talked to BL a bunch about running his. BL, I'm ready too.

[Laker]

Laker, I can't believe you haven't adapted a Yamaha ignition yet. That said, I talked to BL a bunch about running his. BL, I'm ready too.

I had alot of OMC Parts and money invested into a bunch of custom stuff for the OMC ignitions and how to test for the best components. Once I had the right parts together the results were stunning but it never lasted and made tuning tough because the stators were going bad just sitting on the shelf... or so it seems.
The MSD Had its own set of problems but I have worked out all the bugs along with the correct battery package. I have it now to the point of being able to run a full day on a single charge.

So now the VSI is ready...... Im hoping for the arc welder type sparc of the MSD with the Idle quality of stock and the programability of a Full engine management computer.

[baja200merk]

IDLE :confused:

best and OMC components dont belong in the same sentence :p

I just paid $400 for a good running fresh water 150 yami. By the time i part the motor out I will have another Yamarude system ready to bolt on. Even after paying for the flywheel lightening/machining and another omc/yami bearing carrier I will still make 500 bucks ;)

you want a video of it idleing at 1000 with the 34 four people and a cooler? it will run at 400 rpm if the timings not pinned :D

[B.Leonard]

Laker... Its just a V4:rolleyes: How fast could it go? :rolleyes: :p

I'm more worried about the cryo-treatment its gonna get the other 9 months out of the year :eek:

As far as the Yamaha system goes... thats like putting a Tecumseh ignition on my Briggs & Stratton :rolleyes: I guess if it gets the grass cut ;)

Wait till you guys see the 8" touch screen :)

-BL

[Dukeofchippewa]

I knew you'd come through Bruce.:thumbsup:

Laker... Its just a V4:rolleyes: How fast could it go? :rolleyes: :p

I'm more worried about the cryo-treatment its gonna get the other 9 months out of the year :eek:

As far as the Yamaha system goes... thats like putting a Tecumseh ignition on my Briggs & Stratton :rolleyes: I guess if it gets the grass cut ;)

Wait till you guys see the 8" touch screen :)

-BL

[baja200merk]

If Tecumseh ignition works better and is AVAILABLE ;)

The title of the thread says EFI but 5yrs later the ignition is still not available :rolleyes: hows the EFI runnin on the crossblow? :nonod:

How much $$$ am I going to make if i run your VSI? :leaving:

[B.Leonard]

Gotta abide by the law, my pimp told me unless I mention a price, I ain't sellin nuttn :D

Thanks Duke! :cheers:

-BL

[Dukeofchippewa]

You're very welcome. Maybe someday we'll have that beer.

Gotta abide by the law, my pimp told me unless I mention a price, I ain't sellin nuttn :D

Thanks Duke! :cheers:


-BL

[whatsamerc??]

IDLE :confused:

best and OMC components dont belong in the same sentence :p

I just paid $400 for a good running fresh water 150 yami. By the time i part the motor out I will have another Yamarude system ready to bolt on. Even after paying for the flywheel lightening/machining and another omc/yami bearing carrier I will still make 500 bucks ;)

you want a video of it idleing at 1000 with the 34 four people and a cooler? it will run at 400 rpm if the timings not pinned :D

how much you want for the short block? dont need heads,intake,carbs or front half for that matter...........

[Laker]

best and OMC components dont belong in the same sentence :p

I just paid $400 for a ............ yami..... I will still make 500 bucks

you want a video of it idleing ...... will run at 400 rpm ............ :D

Bla bla ya I know... The other thing for me is that if the VSI works, I can adapt it to some "Other" engines :D

[B.Leonard]

As long as it has less than 10 cylinders. I think its the only 10 channel box out there :cool:

-BL

[baja200merk]

Bla bla ya I know... The other thing for me is that if the VSI works, I can adapt it to some "Other" engines :D

ahh the big...............IF

5yrs, we can only hope:D

[B.Leonard]

Dude... more like DONE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qOMO-mqqzE

And no whining about it being a flow! An odd-fire flow has the most stringent timing of any motor out there (fires two cyls within 30 degrees). And as far as max RPM, yeah its only 6k there but the box is torture tested on a simulator that turns 12k rpm :rolleyes:

So there... :p

-BL

[PanRonnie]

As long as it has less than 10 cylinders. I think its the only 10 channel box out there :cool:

-BL

here is one that can do up to 32 cil
http://www.altronicinc.com/ignition.htm
they just require a 18 inch flywheel wich will probably not look very cool on your outboard

[kimswang]

...For most Automotive/Marine systems, you have to ask "Is it Capacitive Discharge?" The answer is no because there is only one distributor-less Capacitive Discharge Ignition out there that generates its own power.... mine :D


-BL

When will this be available for the OMC V8?

[Instigator]

As long as its ignition only. Twin 600w power supplies to keep up with even a V8 2 stroke. It has 10 channels so it could handle a V-10.

This year the box will get a faster 32 bit CPU to handle the EFI and all the other goodies :D So thats probably a year or so away. But the ignition only version is in production now. :thumbsup:

-BL
have you gotten it sealed up or is it still open to air/humidity?? Seems that was a requirement to cool the unit. Are the electronics able to stand the punishment of rough water in a boat application?
What I remember seeing before was interesting but appeared fairly large and more aimed towards a car??

[Instigator]

power supplies capable of cooling themselves if sealed?

[B.Leonard]

Yes. The box would have internal and external heat sinks if sealed. Very much like a marine battery charger. And probably potted as well (epoxy).

As far as humidity on the open box. The internal parts (board assembly) are coated to protect against that already.

-BL

[BarryStrawn]

"generates its own power"

How does that work? The OEM system uses the flywheel/stator, MSD uses the battery which is indirectly from the flywheel/stator. Yours is different?

[Laker]

"generates its own power" Yours is different?

Its called proprietary hardware development. :D

[BarryStrawn]

So the power comes from the battery just like an MSD. You have a circuit to charge the primary using external power. EE 101. I kinda remember your early experiments had used the MSD analog front end.

[B.Leonard]

The first thing I noticed in running it is that I no longer have to run the hottest plug I can find to accommodate the sissy stock ignition. I can run the flat, cold, surface gap plugs and get that hot plug tip away from the piston top. Thats a big deal on a flow where the plug tip is right up against the top of the piston.

-BL

[PanRonnie]

Besides a 20 cyl inline industrial generator that never exceeds a 2000rpm :p Good one!

For most Automotive/Marine systems, you have to ask "Is it Capacitive Discharge?" The answer is no because there is only one distributor-less Capacitive Discharge Ignition out there that generates its own power.... mine :D


-BL

ok here is one that can do 10 channel output
http://www.efitechnology.com/cdis.html

but it will probably have a nice pricetag
wat,s your unit going to cost

[B.Leonard]

It sounds like their CDI is simply a couple MSD boxes in a bigger box :rolleyes:

-BL