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darexms
05-20-2005, 12:29 PM
I've been offered this engine but know relatively little about classic Merc's, any idea's what it is?

Thomas H
05-20-2005, 12:39 PM
May be a T2X, not sure. The I6 with 6 carbs and stacks are rare. If it was me, I would buy it now while you finish identifying it. Don't let this one get away!
Oops-At second glance it looks like a Twister II. Definitely a rare one, go buy it now before it gets away. Will be VERY loud, more a collector's item than a use it every day motor.

darexms
05-20-2005, 12:42 PM
Many thanks for the quick reply, doyou know what sort of power they're supposed to make, when they were made and if it was a reliable motor?

rpm racing
05-20-2005, 12:49 PM
I think the definition of unreliable is, "an old race motor" you buy these things to start a couple of times a year and mostly look at. They are very cool and I would really like to have that one.

Bruce Washburn
05-20-2005, 01:52 PM
It Looks like a T2 mid section. The block looks like a t2 or c6 block. the carbs do not look like Tillotsons that were on most of the t2,C6 and t2x's. What type of carbs are on this engine? It is a tough angle but the gearcase looks a little different as well. I have not seen a six stack version before either. Are there collectors for the stacks, megaphones, or expansion chambers? The stacks look like something that someone came up with. Mike Butler who sometimes post on this board or Raceman would be your best source of info on this engine.
It may be a great collector engine to have depending on where all the parts came from. I could also be just a bunch of old junk someone put together.

Bruce Washburn
05-20-2005, 02:22 PM
To answer your question regarding power etc. A good factory t2x would make 200+ HP. This motor looks like it would have very little bottom end and would not be a good choice for any thing but a light weight tunnel or hydro. The stacks would also get you kicked off any lake within 20 miles of civilization.These motors were built in the early to mid 1970's. From the little bit that I have been exposed to them (Formula 100 and MOd 110 in the late eighties) they ran well but were a nightmare to tune correctly. You may change Jets several times in one day. If your thoughts are to put this beast on a pleasure boat that you would run frequently, I would not suggest it.

Raceman
05-20-2005, 02:49 PM
The carbs look like some early prototype stuff I've seen, near as you can see from the camera angle. The mid looks early, (T2) the cowl is late (T2X) and butchered for the pipes, the steering bars & pipes appear home fabricated. The cowl stickers were never used on an engine like that and appear to be from an 80's or 90's V6. The gearcase looks like an adaption of an OMC unit. The engines weren't so much unreliable as just finicky. Like somcbody already said, it probably doesn't have any practical application today except as a collector piece or display. It'd be a lot better from that standpoint if it was returned more to original configuration. There are a number of people on this board that would be VERY interested in it, INCLUDING ME.

Mark75H
05-20-2005, 02:57 PM
Thomas is right it is not a T2X.

Raceman is right the carbs are the Merc factory carbs that one of the 2 development groups used in testing. They were raced a few times by a few factory drivers. They were never used on customer motors.

From the angle we see it the lower unit appears to be an OMC.

Bruce is probably right, too the 6 exhaust pipes look home made to me.

Like the old Wendys ad .... parts is parts

darexms
05-21-2005, 02:15 AM
Fantastic info guys, would anyone say it's of any real monetary value or is it just a great bit of history?

bridges
05-21-2005, 07:27 AM
Fantastic info guys, would anyone say it's of any real monetary value or is it just a great bit of history?

Looks like a T-II to me. It's historical, which makes it worth something to the right person. ;) They ain't makin' any more of them.

Raceman
05-21-2005, 07:28 AM
It definately has value. Even though it'd obviously be worth more in complete original condition, finding and changing the gearcase isn't overwhelmingly expensive. The exhaust stuff could probably be put back to original with some machined parts since the side cover that's been changed is a piece of 1/4" alum. plate and the inners could probably be fabbed to, depending on extent of change. Since the cowl is butchered for the pipes it'd be the hardest piece to find probably, but being a T2X instead of T2 style, it's wrong for the motor anyway. With the market access of the internet, who knows what it'd bring as is.

Since we don't know where it is anyway, why don't you post the asking price and we'll give you an opinion.

I don't know where OleGator is when we need him, but as much as he was around racin' back then it'd surprise me if he's not familiar with that particular engine as distinctive as the pipes (which probably hurt the performance actually) are. If is was run in the US I'd guess he's seen it.

One of the mysteries to me is the gearcase. I don't recall anybody feeling back then that the OMC race cases were superior to the Merc Super Speedmasters and it obviously took a bunch of work to adapt it, including building a complex adapter and driveshaft spline and length change.

I sure wish you'd take some more detailed pics of it and post em.

darexms
05-21-2005, 07:59 AM
I should have some more pictures of it on monday, I'll post them when I get them. The motor is actually in the UK for GBP1500 (USD$2750 approx), I may be able to get it for as little as GBP1000. Allegedly it has been freshly re-built.

T2x
05-21-2005, 01:03 PM
The motor is actually in the UK .


Well there ya go.......... another example of British craftsmanship...... the motor probably set a record on Lake Windermere.

T2x ;)

willabee
05-25-2005, 12:39 PM
I'm pretty sure that engine is what we called a 14OO. The first 6 carb engines we raced with were fitted with " Morgan " carbs. They were named after Dr. Ted Morgan, an engineer working out of Fond du Lac, Wi. That engine definitely has " Morgan " carbs. There never was a 6 stack exhaust system for this engine, so that system is homemade. There was a factory 2 pipe and a factory 1 pipe exhaust system for this engine ( look at the picture of Jim Merten in the Racers No Longer With Us post ). That engine was probably built by the race team in Oshkosh in 1971. The gearcase has me baffled. We did run some MerCruiser I's because the speedmasters were blowing up with this new power, but the nosecone doesn't look long enough. If you want to run this engine for pleasure, dump the open exhaust system. Also, be prepared to become intimate with those carbs. They used to get messed up just pulling the boat down the highway. When they are set right, that engine really performed - when the floats get out of location, that thing won't get out of it's own way.
I've been offered this engine but know relatively little about classic Merc's, any idea's what it is?

T2x
05-25-2005, 03:34 PM
Looking closer.... Is that a Hubbell lower unit of some kind?

mk30h
05-26-2005, 09:51 PM
Here are some closer views of the lower unit and midsection.
I thought the clamp brackets looked older than the T2 and I am sure that the blue strip says ---Max-- something- can't ehance much further.

One the second photo, does the prop shaft look like a mercs? I wonder if that lowerunit is off some European engine? looks like a very small point on the nose I don't think the OMC unit had that tip X-115, etc.

I think its a SSM? thats been butchered for some reason. Just look at the lines of the tube, has that narrow look of a merc,

Mark75H
05-27-2005, 05:42 AM
That is the 1:1 type OMC racing lower unit used on later X-115's, Stingers & Stranglers. There were several variations with more and less point ..... and they use the same prop shaft spline as Merc's SSM. Nothing more exotic than that .... you guys are letting your imaginations run a little wild here.:rolleyes:

Raceman
05-27-2005, 06:07 AM
That is the 1:1 type OMC racing lower unit used on later X-115's, Stingers & Stranglers. There were several variations with more and less point ..... and they use the same prop shaft spline as Merc's SSM. Nothing more exotic than that .... you guys are letting your imaginations run a little wild here.:rolleyes:

Yep, that's what I said on the last page in 2 posts, but noooooooooo-body listens. The clamp is right for a T2, which used the same T-handle type as any inline 6 of the early 70's. As far as the stickers go, whatever they say they're wrong for the engine and something added later. As for the "1400", I've never seen any C6 or T2 with a 1400 designation. I've seen em with 1500 back on the cowl, and am pretty sure at least one of mine is so labeled (could be the T2X cowl, can't remember) and some just say "Super Six".

Mark75H
05-27-2005, 06:37 AM
The pictures I have of Morgan/square carbed motors all have the T2 type cowl that mounts on pins set up on towers inside the cowl; not the T2X type cowl that hooks by straps at the bottom. The dates on the pictures seem to indicate the sqaure carbed motor preceeded the T2 and that Merc probably planned to call the six carbed motors Super Sixes, but the T2 name caught on by accident after the dash 1 version of the Twister. This certainly doesn't mean that a square carbed motor with T2X cowls couldn't have been or wasn't raced at a later date.

The Super Six decal says 1400

willabee
05-27-2005, 08:12 AM
If memory serves, the very first Morgan 6 carb engines had the rubber handles on the bottom pan which were quickly dropped in favor of the top mounted pins. The cowling moved around too much, it took too long to get the cowl positioned for the handles and the rubber handles broke.

I would guess we had the Morgan carb engine at least a year before Dick Lanpheer ( an engineer at Merc's 2 cycle R&D plant in Oshkosh ) delivered the first 6 Tillotson carb powerhead to the racing team.

If someone can tell me what year Bill Sirois won the race in Dayton in a white single engine Molinari, I could tell you when the 1400 was first raced ( he was running the only one we had brought to the race ).

The pictures I have of Morgan/square carbed motors all have the T2 type cowl that mounts on pins set up on towers inside the cowl; not the T2X type cowl that hooks by straps at the bottom. The dates on the pictures seem to indicate the sqaure carbed motor preceeded the T2 and that Merc probably planned to call the six carbed motors Super Sixes, but the T2 name caught on by accident after the dash 1 version of the Twister. This certainly doesn't mean that a square carbed motor with T2X cowls couldn't have been or wasn't raced at a later date.

The Super Six decal says 1400

mk30h
05-27-2005, 10:42 AM
That is the 1:1 type OMC racing lower unit used on later X-115's, Stingers & Stranglers. There were several variations with more and less point ..... and they use the same prop shaft spline as Merc's SSM. Nothing more exotic than that .... you guys are letting your imaginations run a little wild here.



Yep, that's what I said on the last page in 2 posts, but noooooooooo-body listens.

At 1am I think I start seeing things. I need to get out on the water :)

Mark75H
05-27-2005, 12:41 PM
I would guess we had the Morgan carb engine at least a year before Dick Lanpheer ( an engineer at Merc's 2 cycle R&D plant in Oshkosh ) delivered the first 6 Tillotson carb powerhead to the racing team.

Sounds right to me. I have exchanged a few emails with Dick. He told me that the guys working with the square carbs also did the T-2 exhaust work and their exhaust changes were a worthwhile improvement, unlike the results with the square carbs. Dick said the group he was working with got the reeds and Tillotsons right. While both groups were still working on the T-2 stuff Merc scaled back and let a bunch of engineers go .... the bosses combined the 2 working groups and combined the 2 successful elements to form the finished T-2. Dick was one of the guys that left at that point.

Raceman
05-27-2005, 02:08 PM
In all honesty I'm not real knowledgeable on what happened between the Twister 1 and T2, never having seen anything in between at the races back then. As a matter of fact, when I started going to the races the BP's were pretty much non existant and the handful of Twisters and Twister 1's that were still running were pretty much obsolete. The only T2's I ever saw had the top pinned cowl and I've never seen a pre-T2X cowl with rubber hold downs. My opinion has been that all of the earlier one piece lift off cowls had the 3 pins and later came the rubber straps on the T2X. I've never seen an early cowl that didn't have the pin hardware in the top, but that's why these discussions iz' fun, 'cause sometimes stuff I wasn't aware of pops up.

T2x
05-27-2005, 03:21 PM
In all honesty I'm not real knowledgeable on what happened between the Twister 1 and T2, never having seen anything in between at the races back then. As a matter of fact, when I started going to the races the BP's were pretty much non existant and the handful of Twisters and Twister 1's that were still running were pretty much obsolete. The only T2's I ever saw had the top pinned cowl and I've never seen a pre-T2X cowl with rubber hold downs. My opinion has been that all of the earlier one piece lift off cowls had the 3 pins and later came the rubber straps on the T2X. I've never seen an early cowl that didn't have the pin hardware in the top, but that's why these discussions iz' fun, 'cause sometimes stuff I wasn't aware of pops up.

I remember Sirois running a C-6/White Molinari at Parker...... and barrel rolling the boat. This was the first time I saw the "big" cowl.... At that moment in time all of the non factory and factory race boats were outfitted with T-1's of one form or another...or older stackers.

As to the lower unit on that bastardized British Merc....... Maybe it's an optical illusion but the damn thing seems to have a little point at the front of the gearcase...... the OMC's I remember...and I ran against a lot...... had a rounded snub nose.......I also ran a pair of X-115's for half a season, but they had the bigger gearcase.

I also don't recall the sides on their gearcase as being flattened like the one in that picture...... ( On that point I could simply have not gotten close enough to really study them back in the day.)

I agree with RM that it is neat to remember this stuff........ unless you forgot something... :)

T2x

Raceman
05-27-2005, 03:26 PM
I agree with RM that it is neat to remember this stuff........ unless you forgot something... :)

T2x

Hahaha, I've forgotten a helluva lot more than I remember.

Mark75H
05-27-2005, 04:10 PM
Jes' 'cuz ya seen most of it, don't mean ya seen it all. I'll repeat myself ... some of the OMC 1:1's and close ratios were pointer than others. We've seen these here before, but I edited them down to protect the inno... er ... um guilty parties:p

Mark75H
05-27-2005, 04:14 PM
Here is a row of 4. Look closely at the points of # 1 and # 3

I agree, # 2 and # 4 are more typically blunt OMC

willabee
05-31-2005, 01:21 PM
Well, since 71 was the last year for factory multi's, I'm thinking the marathon in Dayton was probably 72 ( because I don't think Bill drove any singles until the multi-era ended ). That probably means that the white singles came over in 71, because Mike Downard drove the one Bill ended up first.
I think the year of the white Molinari's was 1971, if you are talking about the Nationals.

willabee
05-31-2005, 01:56 PM
:confused: :confused: Me too, but let's see if we can figure this out:


1967 - I'm going to say the big engine was the 1100, and just a couple of guys had stackers including Schoonover with his speed record of 109
1968 - Big one is 1250, and only a few guys have stackers including Kitson who wins Havasu
1969 - Big one is 1250 BP, and Jimmy Kubasta travels to several locations to convert more engines to stackers
1970 - The first of the 1350 direct charge show up at Havasu
1971 - The Twister is born - 1350 silo and cowbell
1972 - Twister I, 1400 silo
1973 - Merc team runs C6, 1400 with Morgan carbs
1974 - T2, 1500 with Tillitson's
1975 - First year for V6
1976 - T2X

Please play with this, I would like to have this time frame straight in my mind.

Looking for

Hahaha, I've forgotten a helluva lot more than I remember.

Mark75H
05-31-2005, 04:10 PM
The debut of the silo Twister was in Europe in 1970. At least one Cowbell had raced at Havasu before that.

The 1970 Paris and Berlin races had Mercs with C-6 silos ('cause the cowbells weren't allowed) and a C-6 with 3 carbs on the side (total of 9 carbs).

At Havasu in 70 Sirois and Harold Eis drove twin Twisters (Cowbells?) and Reggie was still driving twin stackers

At Havasu in 71 Renato drove a Super Six (C-6) single

A prototype T-3 was run at Paris in 1973.

Merc offered both T-2's and T2X's in the 1974 Hi Perf catalog

Raceman
05-31-2005, 04:43 PM
As far as the late 60's, wouldn't you have the 1250BP in 67/68 or so, then the 1250 SUPER BP in 69, which WAS the first direct charge engine? Also, I was at the Nationals in Miami in 1975 and all of the Merc V6's already had the T3/1750XS red stickers. When I bought my Sidewinder in 1974 the dealer already had a poster on his wall of a factory boat with a T3 with the big ole' blue T3 on the side of the cowl, so they had to be around in prototype form at least in the 73 or 74 years.

Also, my sources at Merc always said that the T3 was developed BEFORE the T2X. The fact that the T2X mid section has the T3 bolt pattern that must be adapted to an inline 6 powerhead when it's used seems to support that information.

willabee
06-01-2005, 01:45 PM
I'll buy the Twister in 1970. The first cowbell to run at Havasu was Merten's twin Molinari, the reverse "S", in 1970.
If the Twister debuted in 1970, there would not have been any C6 engines at the same time. I was at the Paris and Berlin races and don't remember any 9 carb powerheads. Who had them?
Sirois ran stackers in 1970 and cowbells in 1971. Eis and Fountain were not factory drivers in 1970.
I remember the white "cockpit forward" single that Renato drove, Forgot that it had a C6 on it.

So maybe a more accurate listing would be:
1967 - 1100
1968 - 1250
1969 - 1250 BP - first 1350's show at Havasu
1970 - 1350 Twister - silo and cowbell
1971 - 1400 Twister I - 1400 Morgan 6 carb makes debut
1972 - 1400 Morgan 6 carb ( aka C6 )
1973 - 1500 Tillitson 6 carb ( aka T2 ) ??
1974 - First V6 - T3 ??
1975 - ??

If this is right through 1972, I still don't know what to do with 73,74 and 75 ( and I was there!! ).

The debut of the silo Twister was in Europe in 1970. At least one Cowbell had raced at Havasu before that.

The 1970 Paris and Berlin races had Mercs with C-6 silos ('cause the cowbells weren't allowed) and a C-6 with 3 carbs on the side (total of 9 carbs).

At Havasu in 70 Sirois and Harold Eis drove twin Twisters (Cowbells?) and Reggie was still driving twin stackers

At Havasu in 71 Renato drove a Super Six (C-6) single

A prototype T-3 was run at Paris in 1973.

Merc offered both T-2's and T2X's in the 1974 Hi Perf catalog

Mark75H
06-01-2005, 04:06 PM
I stand by my account: silo Twister with 6 carbs and 9 carbs in 1970, Twisters and C-6's were not consecutive, but concurrent if you are going to include factory team only motors like the cowbell Twisters and the square carb motors ... customer motors are a completely different issue

1968 was the first year back in racing for Merc with the 1250BP

There were no customer T-3's in 74, probably few team T-3's in 74

Mark75H
06-01-2005, 04:10 PM
The confusing thing in all of this is the fact that a particular factory team motor type may have been run at a race or two and not seen again for a year or more. Some may have never been away from Oshkosh more than once.

It is much easier to chronical the customer motors sold to privateers

T2x
06-01-2005, 04:33 PM
Jes' 'cuz ya seen most of it, don't mean ya seen it all. I'll repeat myself ... some of the OMC 1:1's and close ratios were pointer than others. We've seen these here before, but I edited them down to protect the inno... er ... um guilty parties:p

Are they factory units...or some half assed, nose coned, aftermarket messes?

T2x

Mark75H
06-01-2005, 04:51 PM
Factory


Rich, you are thinking of the 16:21 units that were the preferred and much more popular OMC racing lower units. The close to 1:1 units were apparently as rare as square carb Twisters or cowbells, but they were listed as for sale and as options on the Stranglers and Stingers

T2x
06-01-2005, 04:55 PM
I'll buy the Twister in 1970. The first cowbell to run at Havasu was Merten's twin Molinari, the reverse "S", in 1970.
If the Twister debuted in 1970, there would not have been any C6 engines at the same time. I was at the Paris and Berlin races and don't remember any 9 carb powerheads. Who had them?
Sirois ran stackers in 1970 and cowbells in 1971. Eis and Fountain were not factory drivers in 1970.
I remember the white "cockpit forward" single that Renato drove, Forgot that it had a C6 on it.

So maybe a more accurate listing would be:
1967 - 1100
1968 - 1250
1969 - 1250 BP - first 1350's show at Havasu
1970 - 1350 Twister - silo and cowbell
1971 - 1400 Twister I - 1400 Morgan 6 carb makes debut
1972 - 1400 Morgan 6 carb ( aka C6 )
1973 - 1500 Tillitson 6 carb ( aka T2 ) ??
1974 - First V6 - T3 ??
1975 - ??

If this is right through 1972, I still don't know what to do with 73,74 and 75 ( and I was there!! ).

Revision....... 1962-1965- 1000 ('65 unit had first removable top cowl & hdwe)
1966-1967-1100's

The first T2x I ran was in 1974 on a Miles and that was the first season they were readily available. When I picked up the Miles in Oshkosh in the spring of 74, all of the previous season's factory owned hulls sitting in the yard had T-2 mids on them, with the exception of the Team boats secreted away uptown. I agree with RM on the T-3 lineage as the T2x needed an adaptor at the powerhead base to fit on its 12" adjustable mid ........while the V-6's bolted right on.

T2x

Fish
06-01-2005, 05:32 PM
great thread guys!

fish

Raceman
06-01-2005, 07:29 PM
I'll buy the Twister in 1970. The first cowbell to run at Havasu was Merten's twin Molinari, the reverse "S", in 1970.
If the Twister debuted in 1970, there would not have been any C6 engines at the same time. I was at the Paris and Berlin races and don't remember any 9 carb powerheads. Who had them?
Sirois ran stackers in 1970 and cowbells in 1971. Eis and Fountain were not factory drivers in 1970.
I remember the white "cockpit forward" single that Renato drove, Forgot that it had a C6 on it.

So maybe a more accurate listing would be:
1967 - 1100
1968 - 1250
1969 - 1250 BP - first 1350's show at Havasu
1970 - 1350 Twister - silo and cowbell
1971 - 1400 Twister I - 1400 Morgan 6 carb makes debut
1972 - 1400 Morgan 6 carb ( aka C6 )
1973 - 1500 Tillitson 6 carb ( aka T2 ) ??
1974 - First V6 - T3 ??
1975 - ??

If this is right through 1972, I still don't know what to do with 73,74 and 75 ( and I was there!! ).

I basically agree on Sam's chronology, although I didn't know the 6 carb stuff was as early as he says. In the list posted here I still think the BP's aren't properly listed. 68 was the 1250BP and 69 was the 1250 Super BP. The 1250 BP was still the old crossflow engine, and the 69 1250 Super BP was the first direct charge, and in reality, probably little more than a pre production 70 model 1350 powerhead with a 1250 front case half (old style starter mounting), probably blueprinted but similar to stock.

willabee
06-02-2005, 11:46 AM
Okay, if I read you guys right, the list looks like this:

1962/1965 - 1000 ( some 6 pipe stackers )
1966/1967 - 1100 ( some 3 pipe stackers )
1968 - 1250 BP
1969 - 1350 ( first direct charge ) shows up at Havasu - some people called
them a Super BP ( I don't remember that term )
1970 - 1350 Twister - silo and cowbell - and a couple of powerheads in
Europe with about 57 carburetors on them :rolleyes:
1971 - 1400 Twister I - Morgan 6 carb makes debut
1972 - 1400 Morgan 6 carb - blueprints for first V6
1973 - 1500 Tillitson 6 carb ( aka T2 ) and first V6 ( aka T3 )
1974 - T2X
1975 - T3

Play with this one and tune where necessary:eek:

I basically agree on Sam's chronology, although I didn't know the 6 carb stuff was as early as he says. In the list posted here I still think the BP's aren't properly listed. 68 was the 1250BP and 69 was the 1250 Super BP. The 1250 BP was still the old crossflow engine, and the 69 1250 Super BP was the first direct charge, and in reality, probably little more than a pre production 70 model 1350 powerhead with a 1250 front case half (old style starter mounting), probably blueprinted but similar to stock.

T2x
06-02-2005, 05:03 PM
and a couple of powerheads in Europe with about 57 carburators on them :rolleyes:

There was a Polish variant on that engine that had 57 powerheads and one carburetor...........

There was also an English version that had 57 miles of linkage and a two inch carburetor....that wouldn't start in rainy weather......... ;)

T2x

Mark75H
06-02-2005, 05:53 PM
wouldn't start in rainy weather Probably because it had Lucas ignition boxes (Always remember that Lucas did not invent darkness ... Lucas invented sudden unexpected darkness

Officially ..... Merc was out of racing from 1958 until 1968. The first official Merc racers were the 1968 BP's.
There is plenty of literature refering to the 1969 BP's as "Super BP" .... ads ... sales fliers, even the official Merc parts lists. As far as I can tell the Direct Charge powerheads were raced all year in 1969, not just from Thanksgiving on.

Most of the 1970 factory racers were water injected stackers with SSM adapters and 1350 decals, but there was never an official "1350 BP" customer motor.

I think there are pictures of 6 stack motors at the Lake X race from 1961 if you are going to go into that much detail, but again these were either privateers or purely factory experimental pieces, nothing for sale from the factory. I have a 6 pipe exhaust set up for one of these early motors and it does not have Merc casting ID numbers found on some other Lake X toys I have and have seen. Racers started using the 3 pipe exhausts supplied by Quincy Welding as early as late winter 1963.


I usually leave out the C-6's and cowbells because they didn't seem to be consistantly raced like the BP's and Twisters, weren't for sale and so few seem to have been made. For example, there doesn't seem to be a single surviving cowbell motor; maybe the powerheads were all converted to the silo/side log type exhaust the next season.

You are running way into mystery land with most of these details :)

mbd29
06-03-2005, 05:10 AM
I have not been on hear for awhile. To many things going on. I found this thread interesting. Rich you are one funny funny guy. I always thought you were too serious. I guess I was wrong.

I couldn't figure out who Willabee was until I went back to the first part of the thread. Rich, I'm sure you know who he is but the rest may not. Bill is the guy that passed out all the equipment back during the days that you are talking about. It was a job for him back then so I'm not suprised that his memory is a little fuzy on what happened.

Sam, Rich, RM you guys live and die for this stuff and retain all the information you can get. You need to get Bill to keep talking because he will start remembering all the little things that happened. And man there was allot. I'm still working on Bob Hetzel to get him on here. I told him Bill was posting so this may fire him up a little.

Here is my take on engines sold to Racers not the Factory Team.

1968 1000 and 1250 BP
1969 1000 and 1250 Super BP
1970 Didn't build and engine for sale to Joe Racer. 1350 Stacker for Factory Team and Support Drivers.
1971 "Red Stripe" Twister. I had one
1972 "Blue Stripe Twister I. First year Mercury went to Blue stripe on production engines.
1973 Twister II
1974 TIIX
1975 TIIX
1976 1750XS Funny but my memory is fading here. I don't think any were delivered in 1975. I believe first run was in 1976. I did the Hi-Perf catalogs back then so I should remember. Sorry. Old age is setting in.

Raceman
06-03-2005, 06:51 AM
Mike, the reason I've been insistant on the T3's in 75 was that I went to the OPC nationals in Miami that year. It's the only year I ever went there and I still have the brochure/program. The factory boats had the red striped T3/1750XS and even though I was with a couple of guys with ties to Merc from years back, who seemed to know everybody around the race truck, they couldn't get us a look under the cowl.

Mike, I hope you can find more time to play with us again. We appreciate the input.

Willabee, the 1250 Super BP was fairly easily distinguishable cosmetically from the non-Super because it was Merc's first louvered wrap around cowl. Also, it had a small racing stripe front to rear on the top cowl and on the front and rear of the bottom cowl also. Every 1250 BP I've ever seen had the down studs mid/lower, where the Super BP's all had the up studs type. I've never been told for sure that this wasn't a running production change that MAY NOT have coincided with the change from the BP to the Super BP, but have always assumed that it was part of the newer engine.

dale robertson
06-03-2005, 08:27 AM
The Team had 2 or 3 boats with T-3's in 74 at the Nationals. Same deal nobody could get close enough for a look. I had a close look out on the course when Reggie came by me like a jet and washed me down. I might still have some pictures. I'll look for them this weekend.

willabee
06-03-2005, 11:21 AM
Bill is the guy that passed out all the equipment...

Mike, was that a shot?

Prior to the offical formation of the race team, Garbrecht was a Foreman in an engineering lab called the "blue room" and I was one of the technicans (mechanics) that reported to him.
Gary and Jimmy Kubasta started going to NOA and APBA races with new production equipment to help drivers with Mercury power win in order to " stop OMC from advertising race wins " according to the order handed down by Carl Kiekhaefer. During that time, I was the guy testing that equipment on a Switzer Shooting Star and then on the Molinari's ( this was after Gary had blown over the very first Molinari that came over and was told by Carl that he was not to drive a race boat again ).
This support effort expanded to include taking complete engines to major races and loaning them to drivers for the event. It also included sending me to these events to help with the engine work and Bob Hetzel to help with the prop work.
I was on my way back from Parker in 67 ( I think ), and when I called in to let the office know of my progress towards home, Gary got on the line to inform me that he had just come from a meeting with Carl and Bill Steele and had accepted the position of Manager of Mercury Racing. He said the company was buying more property on the river in Oshkosh where the team would headquarter. He went on to say that the engineering group was going to offer me his old job, but that he wanted me to consider becoming the first Foreman of the Race Division. It took me about 2 seconds to decide my future - Racing Team Here I come!
I held that position until 1973, when I became the first Manager of High Performance Products. I arranged for the rented space of Hi-Perf's orginal location, set up it's first stockroom and started hiring people like Jim Schlicting for 2-cycle and Keith Eickert for 4-cycle. We developed the KT package which lead to the production of the Tempest 350, built the 25SS and then took over all OPC racing activity except the 4 Factory boats ( Hering, Seebold, Bentz and Waterspout ).

Ah, enough of this. Maybe you're right, I passed out equipment:p

Mr.T
06-04-2005, 11:06 AM
The 1250 Super BP was a prototype in 1968. I ran one at Havasu that year on a Molinari. Off course I was not allowed to know what it was not even allowed to take the cowl off. First time ever in a tunnel boat blew it over 3 hours first day while leading. Willibee and I took it to the sewage plant to dry it out no one would ever think to come there.Finished 2nd day not very well water was coming out dist. shaft Willibee forgot it. Anyway it was put in production in 1969 and called 1250Super BP.I now have brain fad and thats all I can rember besides Idon t type too well either.

willabee
06-06-2005, 08:55 AM
I didn't forget, just needed a reminder. Besides, who can forget the smell of a garbage dump early in the morning? QUOTE=Mr.T] Willibee forgot it. Anyway it was put in production in 1969 and called 1250Super BP.I now have brain fad and thats all I can rember besides Idon t type too well either.[/QUOTE]

Raceman
06-06-2005, 10:43 AM
Awright................. I wanna know who Willabee and Mr T are. You guys can PM me if you don't wanna come out of the closet.

willabee
06-06-2005, 10:53 AM
Soooo - now it looks like this:

1965 - 1000
1966 - 1100
1967 - 1250 ( people motor only )
1968 - 1250 BP ( first direct charge 1350's show up at Havasu )
1969 - 1250 Super BP ( everyone in the world calls them Super BP's - except me, I know they are really 1350's;) )
1970 - 1350 "Red Stripe" Twister , silo and cowbell - also, 57 hi-performance powerheads in Europe with 1 carburetor each:)
1971 - 1400 "Blue Stripe" Twister I ( first year for Blue graphics ) - Morgan 6 carb makes debut
1972 - 1400 Morgan 6 carb ( aka C6 ) - blueprints for first V6
1973 - 1500 Twister II - first T3's show at Nationals in Miami
1974 - TIIX
1975 - T3

I think 65 thru 72 looks good - you guys need to figure out how to reach an agreement on 73,74 and 75:eek:

Raceman
06-06-2005, 11:34 AM
I think 65 thru 72 looks good - you guys need to figure out how to reach an agreement on 73,74 and 75:eek:


Yeah, when we get done with all that maybe we can get back on the shortshaft 1500 and J powerhead controversy, AS WELL AS what the shortshaft powerheads REALLY were in 73. That's been a topic with a lot of disagreement in the past around here.

willabee
06-06-2005, 01:51 PM
Wasn't trying to hide in the closet, just didn't know anyone wanted to know.

Mr. T has to be Tom Stickle - he drove the only rig that I ever had to take to a dump to make it better

Tom gave me, Bill Welch, the nickname Willabee when he was with Mercury - I have no idea where it came from - all I remember is he was "Thomason" and I was "Willabee" - sort of the Starsky and Hutch of the team:cool: :cool:
Awright................. I wanna know who Willabee and Mr T are. You guys can PM me if you don't wanna come out of the closet.

willabee
06-06-2005, 02:44 PM
Hey Mr. T - none of us seem to REMBER what a brain FAD is - can you clear that up please:p :p :p
The 1250 Super BP was a prototype in 1968. I ran one at Havasu that year on a Molinari. Off course I was not allowed to know what it was not even allowed to take the cowl off. First time ever in a tunnel boat blew it over 3 hours first day while leading. Willibee and I took it to the sewage plant to dry it out no one would ever think to come there.Finished 2nd day not very well water was coming out dist. shaft Willibee forgot it. Anyway it was put in production in 1969 and called 1250Super BP.I now have brain fad and thats all I can rember besides Idon t type too well either.

Mark75H
06-06-2005, 04:04 PM
I think you might have it all right :)

triple dude
06-06-2005, 04:23 PM
Regarding your comment on Lucas and "darkness." An old quote from Joseph Lucas was," Proper gentlemen should not motor about after dark anyway." ;)

Mark75H
06-06-2005, 05:50 PM
Want to think a real scary thought: Guess who makes avionics for the Royal Navy's helicopters ......

T2x
06-07-2005, 05:36 PM
Sam, Rich, RM you guys live and die for this stuff and retain all the information you can get.
.

I live and die for racing's glory days..... I'll leave the scintillating topics like relative shear pin hardness on early Anzani's and Merc cowl stripe configurations to the other two.

T2x :p

T2x
06-07-2005, 05:37 PM
Want to think a real scary thought: Guess who makes avionics for the Royal Navy's helicopters ......

Aren't they the people who won World War II by allowing London to remain dark at night.....wheter the citizens wanted it that way or not?

T2x

T2x
06-07-2005, 05:42 PM
1976 1750XS Funny but my memory is fading here. I don't think any were delivered in 1975. I believe first run was in 1976. I did the Hi-Perf catalogs back then so I should remember. Sorry. Old age is setting in.

Mike:

As you noted in another earlier thread....we got the first 1750XS...mounted on Billy's Paris boat as I recall...in the spring of 76. We kept the motor (and a spare) and returned the boat.......... This was no rocket ship on the short calm U.S. courses...... By mid season we were running both T2x's and 1750XS's on the same hulls..........

Since my screen name isn't 1750 XS, you can surmise which engine I preferred.

T2x

Raceman
06-07-2005, 08:13 PM
Mike:

As you noted in another earlier thread....we got the first 1750XS...mounted on Billy's Paris boat as I recall...in the spring of 76. We kept the motor (and a spare) and returned the boat.......... This was no rocket ship on the short calm U.S. courses...... By mid season we were running both T2x's and 1750XS's on the same hulls..........

Since my screen name isn't 1750 XS, you can surmise which engine I preferred.

T2x

Guys, guys, guys, I'm tellin' you, 75 was the ONLY YEAR I ever went to a race in Miami and at least some, or maybe all of the factory boats had 1750XS's on em, and there were more than 1. I can't remember who all was runnin' em. I'm not sure that some of the guys weren't runnin' 2 classes by swappin' powerheads, because the famous blowover picture (which happened right in front of me) was a T2X and a couple of Super Stranglers or Stinger GP's if I remember. My memory is foggy on all that, except for the year, because I still have the program, and the engines, because I'd never seen one before.

As far as the what was faster, I remember Buck being at some race with a 1750XS powerhead on the silver 295 boat and it still had the tall rear canopy from it having been run with a T2X. I'm guessin' it was either St. Louis that year or the year after, but anyhow, he made the comment out loud that he wished he had the T2X back on the boat. I'm sure the evolution to the V6 was pretty quick after then as they got it sorted, because the T2 stuff evaporated.

mbd29
06-08-2005, 05:59 AM
Raceman we are talking two different engines. What you saw in Miami were Bendix injected 1750XS/T3 engines running S Class. They weren't legal to run in anything else in APBA. UIM ON of course. What Rich and I are talking about are the 1750XS carb engine that ran in the new SST
APBA class. This was going to replace, U class that the TIIX ran in. Our "Mercury's" idea was that the 1750 was basicly a stock powerhead and not a hand built TIIX. The idea was to try and keep the cost down. Unfortunatly that did not happen. Also, in theory, you could run the same boat with the TIIX and or 1750 powerhead conversion in two classes. And yes the 1750 was a pooch.

Raceman
06-08-2005, 06:33 AM
I had one of those carb 1750XS's Mike, two of em actually. The first one was built from parts. I was at St. Louis and a former Merc employee friend I was with knew some guys on the truck and talked em into sellin' me a new mid. It wasn't that the stuff wasn't for sale, but rather that I was just a lake hotrodder and Merc was a little careful about who they sold stuff like that to. I think it was probably 1976. Anyway, they also had some Merc logo duffel bags, and I slipped the mid about half in it, the rest hangin' out the top and flew home with it between my ankles on the airlplane. Nowdays I reckon the security folks would identify it as a terrorist device and I'd be arrested. I first ran it with a stock 76 1750 powerhead (off our family boat, much to the frustration of my wife), then ran across a factory assembled T3 powerhead and cowl that a privateer had obtained and run out of money on his racing effort.

Side note, Merc was losin' powerheads right and left on the consumer motors and changin' from 3 rings to 2 rings, and cooling system mods, etc, but I never broke one. I was able to get several old warranty powerheads to screw with, but always figured my good luck with em was from that 24:1 mix I ran.

I was determined I was gonna get a Bendix to run on my boat. I tried everybody on the planet and hit brick walls. I even started callin' Bendix. They're so diversified it took a bunch of callin' and lookin' before I got to the right guy. He wouldn't talk about it at all, except to say, "if a unit like you're describing does in fact exist, it'd be a contract with Mercury, and we could never acknowledge it, let alone sell one to anybody else". Imagine the surprise then when I saw one on the front of a V6 OMC at St. Louis either that year or the year after. (still have a picture) Finally got a chance to fool with one about 10 years ago. What a pain in the ass. I guess a bunch of engineers could get one sorted to get a boat around a race course, but based on my experience now, Merc did me a favor by not sellin' me one. What they did finally offer me instead was a 6 one barrel Tillotsen front half, which I've still got. I never did understand how the Tillotsens could use so damn much gas without the engine bein' real fat, but DAMN, they wuz' gas hogs.

T2x
06-08-2005, 08:23 AM
Guys, guys, guys, I'm tellin' you, 75 was the ONLY YEAR I ever went to a race in Miami and at least some, or maybe all of the factory boats had 1750XS's on em, and there were more than 1. except for the year, because I still have the program, and the engines, because I'd never seen one before.

As Mike said you are talking about two different motors..... The motors you saw were two liter T-3's....... The 1750XS I'm referring to was a warmed over....(modified linkage....slight ignition bump....6500-7000 RPM max) ...1750 consumer motor..on a racing center section and lower unit........ By year's end we had better v-6 powerheads in Canada.........but none of them were true consumer motors. In retrospect the inlines were maxed out at about 8000 RPM.... As we know the v-6's wound up spinning considerably faster, but early on the T2x RPM range worked a lot better on race boats.

Sadly the T2x....like me...is now considered obsolete. :)

T2x

Bruce Washburn
06-08-2005, 09:56 AM
Like many engines when they first came out the 1750 xs was not very strong. The stock motor was also used in the SST 120 class in the early 80's. The motor with the stock port timing, AL flywheel, and trw 2 thin ring pistons (which were all legal in 120 at the time) would run fairly well. On the right boat it would turn a 16P prop 8400 to 8600

As far as the Bendix goes the only trick I saw was starting them off the beach. The bendix FI that I had seen in the early to mid 80's was as strong as EFI on top end but lacked a little punch. There were a couple of version and different adapters that were used. If I remember correctly the controllers were RSB 10 or RSB 11's.

In the late 1970's Merc had race 2.4 T-3's with the 175 exhaust cavity cast in the blocks, Thin ring TRW's, Finger Ports machined in and I believe as early as 79 or 80 EFI on the factory motors.

Raceman
06-08-2005, 11:16 AM
In the late 1970's Merc had race 2.4 T-3's with the 175 exhaust cavity cast in the blocks, Thin ring TRW's, Finger Ports machined in and I believe as early as 79 or 80 EFI on the factory motors.

I think that pretty well describes the motors that even the privateers could get from 78 or so on, but by the beginning of the 2.4's the T3 designation seemed long gone, and the stickers just said "Formula". I can't remember exactly, but seems like the T3/1750XS stickers went away about the time the direct bolt on gearcases like #4 & #6 and 8 bolt mids came along. I guess the factory boats probably had em earlier, but I can't recall ever seein' the new style gearcases on an engine with the old red 1750XS stickers back then. The ones that just said Merc didn't show those designation any longer.

There are a couple of things I'd like to know from somebody who REALLY saw the prototype stuff back then. There's been a long standing rumor that the castings back on the side of the blocks, were for additional carbs/reed blocks on the early 1750 engines. I've always doubted it, but if not, what were they? One of my friends who knew some folks inside, initially swore that the V6 was instead an opposed 6 with 3 cyls to the front and 3 to the rear, which of course proved untrue.

It's fun to try to remember all those details. I wish I'd taken more pictures back then.

RBT
06-08-2005, 11:39 AM
Raceman, funny you mention that. I just asked that question last week to a guy that was a factory merc racer and he said it was for cooling, that they had heat issues and that they used them to add plumbing. The restrictor tubes are there now and has solved the problem since.......... or so I was told.
It makes sence as I cannot see how you would get fuel past the water jacket

RT

RBT
06-08-2005, 11:41 AM
BTW AWSOME post, keep this one going. This has to be the most interesting post on here in a long long time..... all this old stuff is awsome, I was born in 74, but can remember racing from the late 70's when my father took me, and all through the earily 80's...... AWSOME stuff.


RT

1BadAction
06-08-2005, 11:50 AM
It's fun to try to remember all those details. I wish I'd taken more pictures back then.

so where are all these guys that used to race this stuff back in the day? they would probably know more than anyone. :confused:

RM- I like the 6 2 barrel manifolds on the CCC motors myself :eek: got fuel?

Raceman
06-08-2005, 01:34 PM
IBad, just so you'll know, Sherlock is at Merc's X Site and was at Lake X before that. He's been with Merc forever. I think he did the original carb modification on the Thors for Carl K in '39 as a matter of fact.:D:D MBD29 was at Merc High Performance in the 70's when as a backyard racer/hobbyist I worried the crap outta them on the phone on a weekly basis 'cause I wanted all trick stuff the big boys had. T2X has been around the Merc stuff forever as have Willabee and Mr T, both racers. Jim Hunt (Ole Gator) has more APBA records than I can count, but I think he went from UJ (A T2 on a 16 Ally) to J Production (records in both) straight into a tunnel with a CCC or RS Johnrude (Mod U?) and never got back to Merc:( . Bruce W's been around it a long time too, but I'd be speculatin' to try to list his resume. I don't know how you'd get a deeper pool on the race stuff back then unless you can get Earl Bentz, Buck Thornton, Cees, Jimbo, or Reggie to join in. (somebody said that all the gold medallions for all these years have blurred Reggie's memory on his outboard racin' roots anyhow:D )

RBT
06-08-2005, 01:38 PM
Is MBD29 a canuck?


if it is cool!, I sat with you at Jasper.

RT

willabee
06-08-2005, 01:56 PM
Hey Guys, for the record, is it safe to say that " THE BIG ENGINE LIST " is accurate from 1965 through 1972, but after that there is still plenty of disagreement?

Raceman
06-08-2005, 03:36 PM
Is MBD29 a canuck?


if it is cool!, I sat with you at Jasper.

RT

Nope................ y'all can claim the Corvettes as bein' part of GM's Canada Group, but you can't have the Merc Factory guys.:p :p :p

2us70
06-08-2005, 04:10 PM
Were the BP motors Mercury's answer to the OMC J motors? I recall Jeff Titus showing up with a Johnson on one of his Odd Jobs and it seems like after that the factory wars were on. I found my self on the front lines in SE a couple of years later and OMC easily out spent yours truely.

Mark75H
06-08-2005, 05:18 PM
Yes, the Merc BP's were Merc's answer to the Evinrude X-115 and Johnson GT-115. OMC's motors were I class (89ci), not 99ci J. A fall 1967 Merc BP in Europe would have had to been a 89ci (1500cc) motor as there was no class for the 1600cc 99ci motors in Europe until 69 if I recall the year correctly. The smaller Merc was the 1000 BP.

I question I've never heard the answer to is whether a 1969 1000 Super BP is a Direct Charge motor. Anyone have one out there?

An anomaly on the 1969 1250 Super BP is that even though it has Direct Charge pistons, transfer port covers and combustion chamber it still has the fishing 1250 style starter brackets.

Riverman
06-08-2005, 05:38 PM
Probably because it had Lucas ignition boxes (Always remember that Lucas did not invent darkness ... Lucas invented sudden unexpected darkness

One of my favourite jokes....

Why do the English drink warm beer?
Because they have Lucas refrigerators.

Raceman
06-08-2005, 06:52 PM
Sam, my friend Wally was around Lake X with his dad back in some of that time frame. He told me there were 4 BP's: 1000BP, 1000 Super BP, 1250 BP, 1250 Super BP. If his information is correct apparently they made some 89 cu inch direct charge blocks. It would seem that they'd have to be a race only piece unless they were thinkin' of a smaller production 6 for 70, which doesn't seem logical.

mbd29
06-09-2005, 05:01 AM
The 1000 Super Bp Was A Direct Charge Block Like The 1250 I Had One On A Hustler Tunnel.

Here Is A Little Tid Bit. This Is From One Of The Guys That Was On The Twister Build. He Wasn't Sure Of The Month But It Was March Or April Of 1971 That They Started The Twister Build. He Figured They Built A Little Over 100. That Sounds About Right Because, If My Memory Is Correct, To Qualify For Apba "u" Class You Had To Build 100. He Had Moved On By The Time They Switched The The "blue Stripe" Twister I.

Now Remember That Mert Did Run A Twin "twister" At Havasu In 1970 So Those Would Have Been Prototypes. Right "willabee"? That Was The Same Boat That Sirois Ran In 1971.

willabee
06-09-2005, 11:32 AM
The " Big Engine List " is trying to establish the power that the race team and/or race support group had available that year. I believe you are right about the 1100 being the biggest engine you could buy in 1967, but we did take some people versions of the 1250 to a few events in 1967. I remember that there were a number of different things failing internally on those early models that the engineering group had to get fixed quickly before that engine went to the public.

The BP made it's US debut at Parker in 1968. I remember testing that engine in Oshkosh when there was ice on the river and then having to continue the work at Lake X ( the propshaft seals were leaking allowing water into the gearcase - what a stinky mess that was, also the original driveshafts had a rubber coupler that would spin out under load ). It sure is possible that we put a couple of them in a box and shipped them to Trapps for the Paris race in 1967. I don't remember for sure whether we did or not, and I didn't go that year.


I was in the ARMY from Dec 1965 until Nov 1967. I think I saw the first BP's in the Paris 6hr in Oct 1967. Was that the first race for the BP's? Also, I always thought the big 6 for 1967 was the MERC 1100ss, which had the early THUNDERBOLT ignition. Please correct me if I am wrong.

willabee
06-09-2005, 01:51 PM
All of what you have stated is correct ( except Merten actually ran a pair of cowbells ). The silo and cowbell engines we built at Racing in Oshkosh in 1970 were the predecessors of the 1971 Twister. I believe that engine was built in Fond du lac at the old boathouse location ( Wayne Meyer ) and that your buddy Armon was in charge of the stockroom at that time:rolleyes:

Those were the rules back then, you had to build at least 100 to be legal for racing.
Sirois did drive Merten's 1970 Havasu boat in 1971 and it was set up exactly as it was in 1970:)

The 1000 Super Bp Was A Direct Charge Block Like The 1250 I Had One On A Hustler Tunnel.

Here Is A Little Tid Bit. This Is From One Of The Guys That Was On The Twister Build. He Wasn't Sure Of The Month But It Was March Or April Of 1971 That They Started The Twister Build. He Figured They Built A Little Over 100. That Sounds About Right Because, If My Memory Is Correct, To Qualify For Apba "u" Class You Had To Build 100. He Had Moved On By The Time They Switched The The "blue Stripe" Twister I.

Now Remember That Mert Did Run A Twin "twister" At Havasu In 1970 So Those Would Have Been Prototypes. Right "willabee"? That Was The Same Boat That Sirois Ran In 1971.

1BadAction
06-09-2005, 01:58 PM
stupid question.. but... whats the deal with the big exhaust chest running down the side sticking out of the cowling on some of the old race motors? what purpose did it serve?

Raceman
06-09-2005, 02:22 PM
stupid question.. but... whats the deal with the big exhaust chest running down the side sticking out of the cowling on some of the old race motors? what purpose did it serve?

It was the state of the art thinking on Exhaust tuning at the time, probably combined with an effort to eliminate the stacks, which were prohibitively noisy. There were a couple of different designs of the logs, and I have at least 3 different ones, but I've never compared them closely enough to know if the actual exhaust passages were different, or if it just pertained to cooling. The early Twisters (red stripe) dumped the water from the top of the log, and the later ones Twister 1's (bule stripe) dumped it from the bottom.

Here's a question I've brought up before without a definate answer, so since there are a couple of new guys around here we'll try again: When did the firing order change on the Twisters?????? What I kow for sure: Twister (red) had the same firing order as the other inlines, and T2 and T2X had the different firing order. The source of my confusion is that I have a Twister1 upgrade kit, complete, new in the box, and still factory stapled shut at the time I bought it. It has a block, upper and lower cowls, exhaust log, new blue Twister 1 sticker set, pistons, a bunch of bolts and brackets, pistons, reed blocks, transfer covers AND crankshaft. Strangely, NO rods. Anyhow, the odd part is that it came with a T2 crank in the box (ridges on ALL main bearing races for main bearings instead of just the usual 2. So................ did Merc change the firing order between the Twister and Twister 1, which would have meant this crank would have to have 3 of the center ridges machined off for the reed blocks, OR was this a shipping/packaging error? Remember, this kit had never been opened. (I still have it complete, in the original boxes)

T2x
06-09-2005, 02:58 PM
Is MBD29 a canuck?


if it is cool!, I sat with you at Jasper.

RT

No he's from Wisconsin...... that's more like an Eskimo with a German accent.

I raced on Team Mercury Canada....... so I'm sorta Canadian.

In the 70's, Mercury's racing branch in Mississauga, Ontario had to reach out for a couple of USA drivers (Me and Bert Serra) because they couldn't find 5 Canadians in total who knew how to turn left........and trim up...... at the same time......

After years of trial and error with a bunch of Canada's best ex hockey players who tended to cross check each other while driving Merc's expensive, exotic, European made, light weight tunnel hulls (and that was on the rare occasions when they were actually sober)....... Bob Paterson reached out to the two of us from south of the border.... and we quickly figured out that by taking the outside lane in turn one, you could avoid all of the inevitable collisions, fist fights, maiming, and splintered sponsons, while simultaneously achieving at least a first or second position on the back straightaway........

The top S class (unlimited class) Team Mercury Canadian drivers in those days were Oley Berkus....... who was Swedish.... Spencer Dunn....... who wasn't, and Mark Rotharmel who, based on how good he looks in a business suit, is, today, considered one of that country's leading intellectuals.....

In all seriousness...... I loved every minute up there...and every one of you guys...especially the late Spencer and Oley...who both departed this earth far to soon......... Of course, given the accuracy of Canada's newspapers and obituaries, they are probably both actually in a pub someplace on Lake Simcoe.

Oh CA NA DA!

:D :D :D

T2x

T2x
06-09-2005, 03:06 PM
Armon was in charge of the stockroom at that time:rolleyes: )
Are you referring to Armon .......Wiegert?

I think he still has some things in "safe" keeping.......... :p

T2x

T2x
06-09-2005, 03:10 PM
I was in the ARMY from Dec 1965 until Nov 1967. I think I saw the first BP's in the Paris 6hr in Oct 1967. Was that the first race for the BP's? Also, I always thought the big 6 for 1967 was the MERC 1100ss, which had the early THUNDERBOLT ignition. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thunderbolt ignition came out on the '66 1100's....... along with surface gap spark plugs...... I was in Mercury outboard school in late '65 and we got about two days of service training on the system......

T2x

willabee
06-10-2005, 07:30 AM
Yes I was, and thanks for the "safe" comment - gave me my first belly laugh of the day:D :D :D
Are you referring to Armon .......Wiegert?

I think he still has some things in "safe" keeping.......... :p

T2x

willabee
06-10-2005, 11:54 AM
Good Question.

The "Big" horsepower Merc's back then were the 1250 and 1350 stackers ( 3 big open exhaust pipes hanging out of the cowling ). The sound was great - someone on here once described it as that of a 10,000 lb bumble bee - but the do-gooders of the time were jumping on the noise pollution bandwagon. As a result, all of the marine stadiums and several of the lakes and rivers that held races banned the stackers. Merc had to find a way to get back the horsepower it was losing due to the ban, so they played with ways to tune the exhaust but muffle it through the driveshaft housing. The result was the "chest" or silo as we call it.


stupid question.. but... whats the deal with the big exhaust chest running down the side sticking out of the cowling on some of the old race motors? what purpose did it serve?

willabee
06-10-2005, 01:03 PM
i usta no dis tuff - :confused: :confused:

Question - if it came with the new scalloped reed blocks, why does anything have to be machined off of the crank? Sounds like you got all of the right parts ( except I don't remember the pistons being different ).

You stated that the T2 has a different firing order, so the change must have been between T1 and T2.

Another question - when I saw this responce post, I noticed RM's question did not show in the blue box. Would one of you guys tell me how to get only the portion of someones post that I want to respond to into the blue box without making the entire post print?

Here's a question I've brought up before without a definate answer, so since there are a couple of new guys around here we'll try again: When did the firing order change on the Twisters?????? What I kow for sure: Twister (red) had the same firing order as the other inlines, and T2 and T2X had the different firing order. The source of my confusion is that I have a Twister1 upgrade kit, complete, new in the box, and still factory stapled shut at the time I bought it. It has a block, upper and lower cowls, exhaust log, new blue Twister 1 sticker set, pistons, a bunch of bolts and brackets, pistons, reed blocks, transfer covers AND crankshaft. Strangely, NO rods. Anyhow, the odd part is that it came with a T2 crank in the box (ridges on ALL main bearing races for main bearings instead of just the usual 2. So................ did Merc change the firing order between the Twister and Twister 1, which would have meant this crank would have to have 3 of the center ridges machined off for the reed blocks, OR was this a shipping/packaging error? Remember, this kit had never been opened. (I still have it complete, in the original boxes)[/QUOTE]

blkmtrfan
06-10-2005, 01:26 PM
You mean like this


Another question - when I saw this responce post, I noticed RM's question did not show in the blue box. Would one of you guys tell me how to get only the portion of someones post that I want to respond to into the blue box without making the entire post print?

Once the quote is in your editing box you can do anything you want with it, but you have to leave the boxes alone, or type them back in if you need to (please note I removed the "E" from quote so you could see what the code looks like, for it to work it need the "E" back in ;) )

There is also a button that looks like this: http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/images/editor/quote.gif that will bring up the QUOTE code, just type between the ] [ and it will work thile this:


my special quite here

hope that helps

Raceman
06-10-2005, 01:59 PM
Willabee, I haven't been inside those boxes in 4 or 5 years, so I'll have to say what I THINK, instead of what I'm sure of.


I THINK the reed blocks that are included in the kit require the std crank journal without the ridges, and also, I THINK the crank is for the new firing order. Only thing I remember for sure is that the ridges are on all 5 of the center main journals. From all that I drew the conclusion that either Merc threw the wrong crank in the box, OR that the Twister 1 had the new firing order (different from a Twister (red), which I know has the old order. I don't know whether you've seen it posted here, but I found an old Switzer Shooting Star in Hemmings 7 or 8 years ago that had a Twister on it, that for all practical purposes was new. The original owner, probably about 60 now had bought it new as a pleasure boat and didn't like the bad manners and after a couple of frustrating trips to the lake put it in the back of the garage, wrapped it up, and never moved it again. The engine is so perfect that it doesn't even have a fluid stain on the silver paint on the powerhead. When the man delivered it, he said "less than 10 hrs" and his daughter corrected him, "probably more like 2 or 3, less than 5 for sure". It's a real time capsule for authenticity on those engines, but unfortunately all of my T1, T2, and T2X stuff has been thoroughly flogged and no tellin' what's original.

Back to my upgrade kit, I also found it interesting that they included a top and bottom cowl (no wraparound). I haven't compared it to the two red motors I have to see what the difference in the cutouts are (if any) The other thing that baffled me was that the kit was so complete, but didn't have connecting rods in it. I've never found a set by the way, even of NOS inline rods, and I'll probably go ahead and put it together if I ever do. If I remember right, the sides of the beams on the only Red Twister I ever went in were ground smooth.

RBT
06-13-2005, 07:09 AM
I know both Bob Paterson and Mark Rotharmel, Mark just had his old Molinari with it's CCC completely restored, it was done just in time to be at his induction in to the Canadian hall of fame.
As a kid I remember watching all the guys racing, watching Oley hold off the V8's was spectacualr, those were the days.

willabee
06-15-2005, 11:44 AM
Yes, thats what I meant, but as I try to follow your instructions, I keep getting a message that says my message is too short - I'm still doing something wrong:( Thanks anyway
You mean like this



Once the quote is in your editing box you can do anything you want with it, but you have to leave the boxes alone, or type them back in if you need to (please note I removed the "E" from quote so you could see what the code looks like, for it to work it need the "E" back in ;) )

There is also a button that looks like this: http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/images/editor/quote.gif that will bring up the QUOTE code, just type between the ] [ and it will work thile this:



hope that helps

willabee
06-15-2005, 11:49 AM
So, are we all going with the last " Big Engine List " posted, the one that has the 1000 in 65 and ends with the T3 in 75?
I think you might have it all right :)

Raceman
06-15-2005, 01:44 PM
Yes, thats what I meant, but as I try to follow your instructions, I keep getting a message that says my message is too short - I'm still doing something wrong.

There's a minimum number of characters required OUTSIDE the box, I think it's about 5 or so.

Mark75H
06-15-2005, 03:47 PM
I don't understand why the 100 and 110 are included without going farther back :confused:

willabee
06-16-2005, 07:18 AM
I had originally started with the 1100 because that was what powered Jan Schoonover's wing to the 109 speed record and, in my opinion, created alot of interest in not only the wing, but in boat racing period. T2X had then made a revision to the list to include the 1000, so I left it on the list.
I don't understand why the 100 and 110 are included without going farther back :confused:

T2x
06-16-2005, 06:17 PM
I had originally started with the 1100 because that was what powered Jan Schoonover's wing to the 109 speed record and, in my opinion, created alot of interest in not only the wing, but in boat racing period. T2X had then made a revision to the list to include the 1000, so I left it on the list.

What we have, in actuality, is the history of "Black Power"...As the 1000 was the first black motor........ We might want to go back to the first inline 6.....Which I think was the Mark 68A....

Or all the way back to the Holy Grail of outboards..... the Hurricane.

T2x

Raceman
06-16-2005, 07:54 PM
What we have, in actuality, is the history of "Black Power"...As the 1000 was the first black motor........ We might want to go back to the first inline 6.....Which I think was the Mark 68A....

Or all the way back to the Holy Grail of outboards..... the Hurricane.

T2x

Hmmmm. I always thought the Mark 75 was the first inline 6 and the "A's" didn't come along until 1959. Mater of fact, I've never heard of a Mk 68. What wuz it?

T2x
06-17-2005, 01:31 PM
Hmmmm. I always thought the Mark 75 was the first inline 6 and the "A's" didn't come along until 1959. Mater of fact, I've never heard of a Mk 68. What wuz it?

A brain fart.... i meant Mark 78.

T2x

2us70
06-17-2005, 01:48 PM
Could you shift a BP while it was running without breaking it? I saw them shifted for inspection but I never saw one backup or started in neutral and then put in gear.

willabee
06-17-2005, 02:10 PM
This is kind of a crummy answer -


Yes, but you sure didn't want to do it too often. I guess the original driveshafts with the rubber coupler were supposed to absorb some of the load when shifting an engine that was running. Problem was the bond between the rubber and its housing would fail, allowing the engine to rev, but the propshaft didn't turn. The "fix" was a solid driveshaft. With that in place, it was rare to see anyone shift a running engine without an almost immediate failure in the gearcase:mad: :mad:

Could you shift a BP while it was running without breaking it? I saw them shifted for inspection but I never saw one backup or started in neutral and then put in gear.

2us70
06-17-2005, 03:08 PM
That's what I figured. Even the stock lower units had some issues. On the 150 and 85 hp motors if you shifted into reverse when the motor was not running you could easily break the shift tooth in the stock control box. Got DQd at Nationals by that one.

T2x
06-17-2005, 03:53 PM
This is kind of a crummy answer -


allowing the engine to rev, but the propshaft didn't turn. :

Sounds like that Polish engine I mentioned earlier with all the powerheads ...and one carburetor :)

T2x

Lyder
06-23-2005, 05:28 AM
Looks like this engine is much shorter than the standard version, Mr. Tore Foss in Norway (racing in class ON 1969 to 1975) custom made 3 engines like this for lay-down cats, (yes crazy laying down on stomack), extreme short transom. (Originally T11X engine's, no stackers) Mr. Tore Foss was a very scilled engineer. Could be that one of those three ended up in the UK.
I beleive I recongnize the carbs too. One of the engines also belonged to Jann Hillestad, former throttleman on Jotun Class1 offshore powerboat.

Raceman
06-23-2005, 12:23 PM
I don't think it's shorter at all. It looks like a std T2 mid (5 inches taller than a T2X) with an OMC gearcase cobbled directly on the bottom instead of the standard BP/Twister/T2 gearcase adapter which is 3 1/2" tall, give or take, itself.

willabee
06-23-2005, 01:39 PM
So, Darexms, did you buy the engine?
I've been offered this engine but know relatively little about classic Merc's, any idea's what it is?

darexms
08-17-2005, 09:06 AM
Crikey, you guys have been busy! I decided against it in the end due to it not really suiting my purposes. As far as I know it's still available.

Thanks to all for the input!

willabee
08-17-2005, 11:00 AM
DAREXMS -

Can you find out what the serial number is on that powerhead? We used to stamp them in the recessed area of the flange on the crankcase cover ( I think on the starter motor side ). Raceman - I'll tell you now, if that engines serial number is NED, you will want it for your collection:cool:

DAREXMS - can you get back to us with the serial number answer a little quicker than you got back to us on whether or not you bought the engine:rolleyes:

Crikey, you guys have been busy! I decided against it in the end due to it not really suiting my purposes. As far as I know it's still available.

Thanks to all for the input!

willabee
08-17-2005, 02:18 PM
MERCURY BIG ENGINE LIST
( POWER AVAILABLE TO TEAM BOATS AND FACTORY SUPPORTED BOATS )

1965 - 1000 ( A FEW 6 PIPE STACKERS )
1966 - 1100 ( A FEW 3 PIPE STACKERS )
1967 - 1250 ( PEOPLE MOTOR ONLY - NOT FOR SALE )
1968 - 125O BP AND 1250 STACKERS WITH SSM ( THE FIRST DIRECT CHARGE 1350'S
SHOW UP AT HAVASU )
1969 - 1250 SUPER BP AND 1350 WATER INJECTED STACKERS WITH SSM
1970 - 1350 "RED STRIPE" TWISTER - SILO AND COWBELL
1971 - 1400 "BLUE STRIPE TWISTER I ( MORGAN 6 CARB MAKES DEBUT )
1972 - 1400 MORGAN 6 CARB ( AKA C6 ) - BLUEPRINTS FOR FIRST V6
1973 - 1500 TWISTER II - FIRST T3'S SHOW AT NATIONALS IN MIAMI
1974 - TIIX
1975 - T3

:cool: :D :D :cool:

Mark75H
08-17-2005, 06:11 PM
MERCURY BIG ENGINE LIST
( POWER AVAILABLE TO TEAM BOATS AND FACTORY SUPPORTED BOATS )

1965 - 1000 ( A FEW 6 PIPE STACKERS )
1966 - 1100 ( A FEW 3 PIPE STACKERS )
1967 - 1250 ( PEOPLE MOTOR ONLY - NOT FOR SALE )
1968 - 125O BP AND 1250 STACKERS WITH SSM ( THE FIRST DIRECT CHARGE 1350'S
SHOW UP AT HAVASU )
1969 - 1250 SUPER BP AND 1350 WATER INJECTED STACKERS WITH SSM
1970 - 1350 "RED STRIPE" TWISTER - SILO AND COWBELL
1971 - 1400 "BLUE STRIPE TWISTER I ( MORGAN 6 CARB MAKES DEBUT )
1972 - 1400 MORGAN 6 CARB ( AKA C6 ) - BLUEPRINTS FOR FIRST V6
1973 - 1500 TWISTER II - FIRST T3'S SHOW AT NATIONALS IN MIAMI
1974 - TIIX
1975 - T3

C-6's ran at a few selected races in 1970

The main factory racer campaigned for most of 1970 was the factory only "1350 BP" Stacker

I have never seen a picture or a quote from 1970 mentioning or showing a closed "silo" Twister at a race, only cowbells (and only very late in the year) until the races in Europe over the winter of 70/71

There were no blue decals in 1971, blue started in 1972; but I do think the -1 kit was available late in 71.

The first Direct Charge is the 1969 1250 Super BP; Havasu was certainly late enough in the year for 1969 models to show up. "1350" stickers did not appear on any motors until the NYC boat show of Jan 1970, more than a year later.

From this clip from the Bristol race in England, June 1974, sure looks like T-3's were out before 1975

Raceman
08-17-2005, 08:42 PM
I've always been told that the T3 was build before the T2X, and the fact that the T2X is an inline put on a V6 race mid with an adapter plate seems to support that information also.

Raceman
08-17-2005, 08:45 PM
Willabee, here's a question maybe you can help with. One of my historical (or maybe histerical) sources has always said that Merc never installed any of the 3 stack kits on engines sold to privateers, but only sold them as kits. I've always found that a little hard to believe. What d'ya think?

darexms
08-18-2005, 08:39 AM
I'll see what I can come up with, I've just phoned the guy and he should be calling me back later today.


DAREXMS -

Can you find out what the serial number is on that powerhead? We used to stamp them in the recessed area of the flange on the crankcase cover ( I think on the starter motor side ). Raceman - I'll tell you now, if that engines serial number is NED, you will want it for your collection:cool:

DAREXMS - can you get back to us with the serial number answer a little quicker than you got back to us on whether or not you bought the engine:rolleyes:

willabee
08-18-2005, 08:47 AM
Thank You
I'll see what I can come up with, I've just phoned the guy and he should be calling me back later today.

Raceman
08-18-2005, 08:49 AM
DAREXMS -

Can you find out what the serial number is on that powerhead? We used to stamp them in the recessed area of the flange on the crankcase cover ( I think on the starter motor side ). Raceman - I'll tell you now, if that engines serial number is NED, you will want it for your collection:cool:

DAREXMS - can you get back to us with the serial number answer a little quicker than you got back to us on whether or not you bought the engine:rolleyes:

Hell, I want em ALL for my collection. Incidentally, I'm still desperately in need of a BP (NOT Super BP) lower to complete that engine. (BIG hole in the collection right now) It's the studs down type.

willabee
08-18-2005, 09:10 AM
The "Big Engine List" I posted yesterday was just a cleaned up version of the one I posted on 6/6. The comment below pretty much sums up the comments received on the 6/6 list. I did ask on 6/8 if we all liked 65 through 72 but still disagreed on 73,74 and 75. I also asked on 6/15 if we were going with the 6/6 list. I thought we were done.

Sooooo, if it still needs work, let's fix it. As I said originally, I would just like to have this time frame straight in my mind:)


I think you might have it all right :)

Raceman
08-18-2005, 11:10 AM
One other question/comment on the above list: I notice the designation of "1400" on the blue striped Twister 1. I'd have to look at mine to say for sure, but I don't recall that designation on it, AND since the Twister 1 had the old bolt pattern at the bottom of the block and mid section like the 70 & 71 production engines AND the red Twister, and the 1400 was basically just a 1500 without the power porting and had the new bolt pattern, wouldn't the first 1400 race version be in the C6/T2 family?

Opinions please.

willabee
08-18-2005, 11:27 AM
WHERE DO YOU COME UP WITH THIS STUFF:) :)

Let's take this a couple of years at a time

OK, we all agree that we're cool with 65,66 and 67. We should be good for 68 because we had the 1250 BP and 1250's with stacks on SSM units. We also know that the direct charge 1350 was first seen at Havasu. We had Tom Stickle tell us that he ran one of them ( and he reminded me that I had to dry his out ). In addition, I remember that we had 4 of them at that race - Stickle, Don Clark, Art Kennedy and someone. I believe it was Raceman that reminded us about the louvered cowling used on the 1350 - I not only remember that , I recall we had several extra sets and loaned them to people with BP's ( didn't get most of them back after the race ).
1968 should be good as listed and so should 1969.
DO YOU GUYS AGREE SO FAR?

C-6's ran at a few selected races in 1970

The main factory racer campaigned for most of 1970 was the factory only "1350 BP" Stacker

I have never seen a picture or a quote from 1970 mentioning or showing a closed "silo" Twister at a race, only cowbells (and only very late in the year) until the races in Europe over the winter of 70/71

There were no blue decals in 1971, blue started in 1972; but I do think the -1 kit was available late in 71.

The first Direct Charge is the 1969 1250 Super BP; Havasu was certainly late enough in the year for 1969 models to show up. "1350" stickers did not appear on any motors until the NYC boat show of Jan 1970, more than a year later.

From this clip from the Bristol race in England, June 1974, sure looks like T-3's were out before 1975

willabee
08-18-2005, 11:53 AM
That was company policy, to sell the kits. However, you have to remember there was company policy and there was Gary Garbrecht's policy.
In my position, I wasn't privy the specifics of the deals made with factory support drivers, I just knew who they were and how far we were to go to provide equipment. Then there was this "grey" area. One example that comes to mind is Kenny Baker and Roy Zapponi. I think that equipment was Kenny's, but when he wanted to run those stars and stripes almost 4 point tunnels in a kilo record attempt, I believe Gary arranged for Jimmy Kubasta to go out to California and install the kits. The Glastron/Molinari team falls into that area also. I was told to have a couple of powerheads built for them and to haul them out to Galveston ( I think ) in "Day Tripper". There are other examples, but I'm sure you get my point.
Willabee, here's a question maybe you can help with. One of my historical (or maybe histerical) sources has always said that Merc never installed any of the 3 stack kits on engines sold to privateers, but only sold them as kits. I've always found that a little hard to believe. What d'ya think?

willabee
08-18-2005, 01:24 PM
Alright, while we're waiting to see if the list needs any changes through 1969, let's talk about this.

First of all, I have a bad habit of refering to these engines with what we called them at the time, which is not necessarily how the decals or the literature identified them. EXAMPLE: on the first list I referred to the 1969 1250 Super BP as a 1350 because that is how the block was introduced to us. So when I call something a 1400, that is because of the block that was used, not how it's decals may have read.

Having said that, I think you are right about the 1400 being a different bolt pattern from block to DSH. I know the first one raced was Bill Sirois in Dayton and I think I remember that engine being stored in the parts truck already on a DSH. It was delivered to us from Dr. Morgans group in Fond du lac.
All of our team boats wre running Twister I's (except Gary Peacock, he was running a NED engine ) and we were having trouble getting Sirois up to speed. Dr. Morgan asked if I would put his engine on Sirois' boat to see how it would perform. We did and he won the race. Earlier, on this thread, we came up with 1971 as the year that happened. So if Morgan is at that race to see his engine run, you know the square carbs had to have been on it That tells us that 1971 was in fact the debut of the Morgan 6 carb ( aka C6 ).

That takes the 1400 block away from the 1971 Twister I. So if a kit was sold to upgrade a Twister ( 1350 block ) to a Twister I and the kit included a block, what was the difference between the blocks:confused:






One other question/comment on the above list: I notice the designation of "1400" on the blue striped Twister 1. I'd have to look at mine to say for sure, but I don't recall that designation on it, AND since the Twister 1 had the old bolt pattern at the bottom of the block and mid section like the 70 & 71 production engines AND the red Twister, and the 1400 was basically just a 1500 without the power porting and had the new bolt pattern, wouldn't the first 1400 race version be in the C6/T2 family?

Opinions please.

Alan Power
08-18-2005, 01:25 PM
The serial no. of the engine in question is 2641895 ;)

So what is it?

willabee
08-18-2005, 03:22 PM
Don't know for sure. It was not built by the race team, so it is either one of the few built by Dr. Morgan's group or it is a collection of parts.

The very first ones were built by Jim Achison in Fond du lac and tested by the race team. Jim was always there when the testing took place and he made all of the adjustments. When it was decided to take them racing, Jim also went to the first few races and did all of the service work. As a result, I don't know if they put a serial number on those engines. If they did, I don't know how it was configured.
Thanks for your help:)

The serial no. of the engine in question is 2641895 ;)

So what is it?

rnelems
08-18-2005, 04:36 PM
That serial # would be 1968 if it is a powerhead serial #.

willabee
08-19-2005, 08:56 AM
How did you get 1968 out of that number, just curious:confused:
That serial # would be 1968 if it is a powerhead serial #.

Mark75H
08-19-2005, 01:25 PM
My serial number reference is Intertec's boat & motor ID directory ... but Intertec places it as a 1969 number. 1968 1250's starting with 2314956, 1969 1250's starting with 2536210 and 1970 1350's withn 2839369 (Intertec does have a number of errors).

I still contend that the term "C-6" was used in the press during 1970. Whether the carbs were square or not is unknown to me. My earlier comment about the Morgan square carbed motor debuting later was specific to the square carbs, not the number of carbs.

I still think that "1350" would not have been the designation of the 1969 racing block during 1969, because Mercury had not decided to call the 1970 motor 135hp until seeing the 125hp OMC's at the January 1970 NYC Boatshow. My parents were Merc dealers who attended the 1970 NYC boat show during the trade only day (I was only 10 and had to stay at Grandmom's). At the show they were shown a drawer full of hand made 1970 style decals ranging from 1250 to 1500 that would have been selected - just to stay at least 10hp above OMC's top motor. No reason that the Super BP could not have gained the nickname retroactively since that is apparently exactly what the block is with the older 1250 type front and fuel pumps. Willabee, you are one of 8 or 10 people in an exclusive club that would know for sure, but it would take another of your peers coming forward to convince me you guys called them 1350's during 1969.

Can a 1250 front be bolted up to a 1350 block to make a "Super BP" looking powerhead? Can the 1250 type fuel pumps be forced on as well to make a period correct Super BP looking powerhead?

rnelems
08-19-2005, 04:23 PM
My 1968 1250SS is serial # 2807149 and it is for sure a 1968,so that motor is slightly below that at #2641895. On the Merc parts CD I also checked serial # range for example a 1967 1100 and a couple other 1967/1968/1969 serial # groups. The last # for a 1967 1100SS is #2314955,so it is not a 1967. If the motor is that actual # it is without doubt a 1968 model,tho I can't tell from the # what engine it would have been,Merc's product history doesn't go back that far.Robert

largecar91
08-19-2005, 04:35 PM
I Have A 1968 125 And A 1971 135 Motor Apart In The Garage. I Will See If They Will Bolt Up And Let You Know This Weekend.

rnelems
08-19-2005, 04:39 PM
The plot thickens a little,in checking the 1250BP serial # groups there is some overlay in the #s. 2400005-2641954 should be 1968,but the next group is 2641855-3253111,so the engine falls in both groups,1968 or 1969. Best guess is Merc didn't keep as good of records on the BP's as on the regular motors. So the motor is a 1968 or 1969,does it really matter? :)

Alan Power
08-19-2005, 07:13 PM
So the motor is a 1968 or 1969,does it really matter? :)

Not as much as the question of what it is, BP, Super BP, 1350, pile of parts :confused: Maybe I've missed something but what is it?

Alan

baldad45
08-19-2005, 11:57 PM
My 1250SuperBP has serial #2642078 .I have the parts list for Super BP1000 and Super BP1250, it lists 1000BP-2641855 and up,1250BP-2641955and up.Add to the pot and stir somemore.Looks like its a 1000SuperBP block,very rare I think.

Raceman
08-20-2005, 01:41 AM
I Have A 1968 125 And A 1971 135 Motor Apart In The Garage. I Will See If They Will Bolt Up And Let You Know This Weekend.

I'll save you the trouble.................. the bolt patterns on those two engines are the same.

Raceman
08-20-2005, 01:43 AM
My 1250SuperBP has serial #2642078 .I have the parts list for Super BP1000 and Super BP1250, it lists 1000BP-2641855 and up,1250BP-2641955and up.Add to the pot and stir somemore.Looks like its a 1000SuperBP block,very rare I think.

I've lost track of this thread after all these pages, BUT if we're still talkin' about the motor that started it, a BP, or SUPER BP in either size (1000 or 1250) ain't gonna bolt to the mid section in that picture UNLESS it's a BP mid with a T2 pan which the plate has been custom made for. If it's that motor it's more likely a 1400 or 1500 or T2 based block. If we've slid off on another engine that is in fact a 1000 Super BP block I'd like to have it if it's for sale. I've got everything else to make it a complete engine.

Alan Power
08-20-2005, 04:52 AM
The engine I was asking about was the one that started this thread on the first page.

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=86596

This is what I got back from them when I enquired about it's history and ser. no. ...

Hi alan,
Finally a man with taste!!
The engine is simply a gem, it's in pristine condition, fully restored
by a racing enthusiast named steve twig from Urmston. Sadly he died a
few years ago and we bought this engine from his wife. It is perfect bar
a small crack on the fibreglass cover.
the serial number is 2641895

Mark75H
08-20-2005, 08:15 AM
The engine I was asking about was the one that started this thread on the first page.

I thought it was clearly settled some time ago:

This is a collection of parts. Some are home made.

The most interesting thing is the serial number within 50 of the first 1000BP number. Since this motor is in Europe, the likelyhood of being an 89ci OI class Super 1000BP is a bit higher than if it were in the US.

I'd like to know if the serial number is stamped on the block or is this just the number on the clamp assembly?

largecar91
08-20-2005, 08:17 AM
I figured you would have already bought it by now. This thread has went on for quite some time. The motor has value. The carbs alone have to be worth a good buck. I hope when you get it, That it turns out to be something rare then at least we all know that it will be safe and kept in tact. Good luck and I hope shipping doesn't kill you. Please keep us informed on what you find out. :)

Raceman
08-20-2005, 08:27 AM
I thought it was clearly settled some time ago:

This is a collection of parts. Some are home made.

The most interesting thing is the serial number within 50 of the first 1000BP number. Since this motor is in Europe, the likelyhood of being an 89ci OI class 1000BP is a bit higher than if it were in the US.

I'd like to know if the serial number is stamped on the block or is this just the number on the clamp assembly?

I think you're right Sam. After all these pages and all this time I lost track. Just think how my mind wanders on stuff that I AIN'T interested in if it's this bad on somethin' I am.:o

Mark75H
08-20-2005, 09:04 AM
The plot thickens a little,in checking the 1250BP serial # groups ... So the motor is a 1968 or 1969, does it really matter? :)

Yes, it would.

Following what is assumed to be generally understood, in 1968 the motors were regular crossflows based on the 1250 and 1000. In 1969 they were Direct Charge crossflows based on the not yet introduced 1350.

Alan Power
08-20-2005, 09:05 AM
I was not the one originaly inquiring about this motor, I only stumbled accross this thread again this week thought the motor was interesting!

largecar91
08-20-2005, 06:01 PM
Did anyone ever determine if it was a "NED" block? I wonder what shipping would be????? :confused:

willabee
08-22-2005, 01:02 PM
No, this is not a NED engine:(

I don't think we ever determined for sure what it was, but did agree that the cowling is wrong, the decals on the cowling are wrong, the exhaust system is homemade and it has an OMC lower unit.
A " real " engine of this type would not have a serial # that came close to any production number. Since it does, you add that to all of the other things that are not correct and I think it is safe to say that it is a collection of parts.
Did anyone ever determine if it was a "NED" block? I wonder what shipping would be????? :confused:

Raceman
08-22-2005, 02:19 PM
What does "ned" stand for?

willabee
08-22-2005, 03:59 PM
NED - No Engineering Degree

The powerhead that was used by Jim Merten to set the single engine straightaway record was a NED engine. That's why I said you would want it if it had that I.D. stamped on it. That would truely be a cool thing to own:cool:

willabee
08-24-2005, 10:45 AM
The first powerhead I ever saw with 6 carbs had Morgan's on it. If there was one earlier than that, I missed it.

If you just think of Havasu in 1970, you have the winner driving a two year old tunnel with a pair of 3 carb stackers and an " on the payroll " factory driver running the most exotic stuff we had, a new twin reverse "S" with a pair of 3 carb cowbells on it. Certainly, if we had the 6 carb power at that time, we would have had someone running it.
Maybe, due to your ripe old age in 1970, you are confusing "seasick" with "C6" ( and you better be at least smiling, cause that was an attempt at humor:) )

Regarding the use of the term "1350" in 1969, I know that you do agree that is what that engine was ultimately called. My best guess is that the engineer behind it figured it would be called a 1350, so when he introduced it to us, he used that term. I don't recall using the term "1250 Super BP" when discussing this engine with our guys or writing that term down on our engine build form when getting ready for a race. I put in a call for Bob Geary, who used to build these, but he hasn't called back yet. What do you think we called it?

By the way, if you happened to see this post disappear for a few minutes, that was because I screwed up the blue box thing again and had to repost. I also did that the other day when I tried to edit my post to Raceman's question about what NED stood for - I lost my entire response and didn't even try to put it back, sorry if that messed somebody up:(

I don't understand the last question. If a 1350 block is what was used for the 1250 Super BP, why would you install any 1250 stuff on it to make it period correct:confused:

My serial number reference is Intrtec's boat & motor ID directory ... but Intertec places it as a 1969 number. 1968 1250's starting with 2314956, 1969 1250's starting with 2536210 and 1970 1350's withn 2839369 (Intertec does have a number of errors).

I still contend that the term "C-6" was used in the press during 1970. Whether the carbs were square or not is unknown to me. My earlier comment about the Morgan square carbed motor debuting later was specific to the square carbs, not the number of carbs.

I still think that "1350" would not have been the designation of the 1969 racing block during 1969, because Mercury had not decided to call the 1970 motor 135hp until seeing the 125hp OMC's at the January 1970 NYC Boatshow. My parents were Merc dealers who attended the 1970 NYC boat show during the trade only day (I was only 10 and had to stay at Grandmom's). At the show they were shown a drawer full of hand made 1970 style decals ranging from 1250 to 1500 that would have been selected - just to stay at least 10hp above OMC's top motor. No reason that the Super BP could not have gained the nickname retroactively since that is apparently exactly what the block is with the older 1250 type front and fuel pumps. Willabee, you are one of 8 or 10 people in an exclusive club that would know for sure, but it would take another of your peers coming forward to convince me you guys called them 1350's during 1969.

Can a 1250 front be bolted up to a 1350 block to make a "Super BP" looking powerhead? Can the 1250 type fuel pumps be forced on as well to make a period correct Super BP looking powerhead?

willabee
08-24-2005, 01:08 PM
Hi Jim, good to hear from you -


Are you telling me that I am having a senior moment of huge proportion:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

The 4 powerheads run at Havasu in 1968 - the first direct charge powerheads - the ones with the fuel pumps located more towards the back of the block - the ones with the louvered cowling - the ones that were called 1250 Super BP's in 1969...... those guys were not built using the 1350 block?????

Please understand, we did not build them ( the Havasu powerheads ), they came from plant #6. I remember that because I had to go over there to explain what happened to a couple of them. I thought the sequence of blocks was 1250 cross flow - 1350 direct charge - 1400 - 1500.

Sh-t, if I've got that wrong............:o :o :o :o :o :o

Bill,
The 1250 Super Bp 1969 And The 1350 Were Made From Different Blocks, As You Know. The 1250 Super Bp Did Not Have The Starter Mounted Like The 1350. The Fuel Pumps Were Totally Different Shapes. The Transfer Port Covers Were Shaped Totally Different.

Mark75H
08-24-2005, 06:21 PM
willabee, I'm going to change my opinion on the 1350 name. I found 1350 on some documents dated October 1969. It could have been called that in house, looks like you are more correct than I was :rolleyes:.

My questions that confused you relate to what Jim was relating: the first year Direct Charge BP racer was a hybrid of the 1250 and 1970 production motor with the 1250 style starter mounts and 1250 style fuel pumps. My questions were asking if you had a 1969 BP with correct decals and 1969 style lower unit but a bad powerhead, could you retro fit a 1350 block to a 1250 front and make a 1969 racer looking powerhead?

Jim says the port covers would still give it away.

Raceman
08-24-2005, 09:20 PM
My 1250 Super BP has THE ORIGINAL powerhead, serial numbered to the tag on the swivel bracket. If it'll help, I'll shoot some pics of it first of the week in the transfer port cover and fuel pump area. Sam, off the top of my head, I'd think that you could in fact stick a 1250 front on a 1350 block and have a Super BP lookalike. If there's any questions as to exterior cosmetics, I can shoot pics of my std 1350's on that side and the 1350 stackers as well.

willabee
09-13-2005, 02:08 PM
Just using this to move this thread so that Bob Hetzel can find it on his computer - he said that he will work on the Big Engine List with the help of Jim Schuenke and Dick Lanpheer. Thanks, Willabee:)
You Can Put Any Front Half That Mercury Ever Built,on It, And If You Use A 1350 Block It Will Be A Dead Give Away When You Remove The Cowling. Period!

1BadAction
09-13-2005, 09:14 PM
"the big engine list" is cool... all it needs is some pictures to go along with it. If I had them I could make an online photo album ;)

Raceman
09-15-2005, 03:05 PM
You Can Put Any Front Half That Mercury Ever Built,on It, And If You Use A 1350 Block It Will Be A Dead Give Away When You Remove The Cowling. Period!

Jim, here's a picture that LakeRacer99 sent me of his Super BP. What is cosmetically different here than a 1350 block with a 1250 front half?

Raceman
09-15-2005, 03:07 PM
Another view of LR99's powerhead:

Raceman
09-15-2005, 03:43 PM
Hell Jim, I can't even hardly remember ridin' around lookin' at my stuff. I wish I had the 1350 close enough to the BP to look at em together, but they're 40 miles apart. I intended to go shoot some closeup pics of BP powerhead, but since LR sent me those pics I didn't get around to it. (send me a PM or E and gimme' a clue)

Fish
09-15-2005, 06:13 PM
Let's Have Some Fun First.
Jim

LOL

Norris, if you ever want to get a bunch of pics from all angles of your motors, just say the word and I will drive up and take them. I would love to check out the museum anyway, and I can put them all on disks for you.

Raceman
09-15-2005, 11:06 PM
Jody, you'd be welcomed anytime, BUT my stuff is scattered, layin' on the floor, on crude stands stuck in corners over behind old Corvettes (that are scattered) and in 5 different places, 2 of em 35 miles from the rest. I guess it's kinda interestin' stuff to look at, but sho' ain't much of a photo op. I ain't exactly what most people would call a neat freak.:o :o

Fish
09-16-2005, 05:40 AM
thanks norris, I would love to check it out one of these days.

willabee
09-16-2005, 11:16 AM
I agree, when the list is complete, maybe one of the guys could post the list with a picture of each engine along side of it's respective year:cool:
"the big engine list" is cool... all it needs is some pictures to go along with it. If I had them I could make an online photo album ;)

http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=93591&stc=1 http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=93592&stc=1